Shielded vs Unshielded and <$500 interconnects

[tesla13BMW]

So we risk interference with an unshielded cable and distortion from a shielded cable.

 

So how do we know with a shielded cable that something isn't missing due to the distortion?

[Guest gmdb]

It only has to be subtle before you begin losing background blackness and depth of presence. Over time, one can easily become accustomed to something less without realising anything was even missing.

 

This sounds rather spooky. Could you elaborate?  I am beginning to think that in Brisbane we don't have these problems.  Could be because the city is so spread out?  Don't know but we don't have these issues up here.  Sorry for sounding parochial, but this lose of background and depth of presence, because of EMI/RFI isn't happening in Brisbane.  Could be because of density down south?

[Guest Muon]

Yeah, That's an aspect i would notice, especially going back and forth between shielded and unshielded IC's but have not detected any lose with unshileded here.

 

I'm in Brisbane also.

[andyr]

Glad I'm not using that SS stuff, with all these compromises needed, I rather stick with analogue and It's perceived ones

 

Aah, do I detect you are calling tube amps "analogue" ... so ss amps are not? 

 

I use unshielded RCAs in  parts of my system.

So now I'm wondering about what is it that I'm meant to be hearing from these poor cousins?

 

You need to do the experiment.  Substitute shielded RCA cables for the unshielded ones you are using now (preferably from the same mfr, so there is some similarity in their construction) and see what sound difference there is.  Preferably, don't do this by yourself but invite 3 or 4 keen-eared listeners around.

 

An unshielded and unbalanced line cable has the greatest potential of having its signal altered by EM/RF pollution.

 

Absloootely! 

 

If shielding is a must why would a company like Kimber invest so much research into achieving a shielding effect by its configuration and expensive equipment to produce it?

 

Why wouldn't they just bung a foil or such likes around it?

 

Does twisted pair, three wire braid, multiple wire braids not offer anything to immunity?

 

What are the negative effects of shielding on a cable?

 

How would one go about shielding an unshielded cable to experience what shielding offers?

 

Because they decided the market segment they wanted to own was braided ICs - not shielded ICs.  Braiding/twisting wires certainly does provide some immunity to RFI (compared to unshielded cable) but an experiment can easily be done to show how much this is:

• for a phono cable - the lowest signal level in your system - compare one which, say, has 2x twisted pairs (1 for each channel) against one which is made of coax - so shielded.  See if the sound is different.

The negative effect of shielding a cable is higher capacitance - which, supposedly, results in a "closed-in" sound.

 

But it is pretty hard to shield an unshielded cable - the shielding is kind-of intrinsic ... but it can be done.

 

I have no interference issue when using unshielded line level IC's

 

Perhaps you should specify the bandwidth of your amps?

 

This is true except I would take out the word "greatest" and run it as "An unshielded and unbalanced cable has the potential of having its signal altered by EM/RF pollution." 

 

Totally agree.  But the shield in a shielded cable will also add some distortion to the audio signal. Which distortion do you prefer?  It's subjective, you make the choice from listening. 

 

Certainly - it's A vs. B ... and whether the negative effect from A outweighs the negative effect of B.

 

But I'm interested to know what your view of the negative effect of shielding is.

 

It only has to be subtle before you begin losing background blackness and depth of presence. Over time, one can easily become accustomed to something less without realising anything was even missing.

 

Very well put!

 

 

Andy

Edited May 27, 2016 by andyr

[Guest gmdb]

I don't think I do either but from what a lot are saying the system has to be getting interfered with and is detrimental.

 

Your system is getting distorted in so many ways.  Which distortion do you prefer?  From the way this thread has been running it seems clear that Brisbane has the most pleasant distortion from EMI/RFI on the whole eastern coast.  And it's probably true.   Want your system to sound better, move to Brisbane! 

[Guest Muon]

@@andyr

 

Andy, I finished playing this game with you ages ago, things move on, I have

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

An interesting article and about the only one out there.   And you are correct - it's all very much subjective experience on the thread.  I do wonder how accurate Archimago's equipment was, and whether most of what he was measuring was clouded by the limitations in the equipment.  I only say this because I have looked into buying accurate equipment for cable testing and it runs into many thousands of dollars, which was way beyond my budget. 

 

The whole thread should possibly moved over into a new one entitled "Experiences with Shielded and Non-Shielded Cables". 

 

Thanks for posting this.

 

So why do those people who do own suitable equipment - and I include all of those magazines who measure components regularly - never publish cable measurements? And surely, if his equipment was poor, it would show up as poorer performance than the evenly good quality shown in his test? I can't see how anything "better" than these cables would give us an audible change. While the measurements are limited, they do address the two areas quoted by supporters of unshielded cables- stereo imaging (crosstalk) and frequency response differences, at least in the audible range.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Eggcup The Daft

[Guest Muon]

This thread will end up in the great debate

[NcA]

I did open up a can of worms here! I thinking I might get an Unshielded and see for myself!

[tesla13BMW]

So from a few posts I have picked up that shielding adds to capacitance and results in a closed in sound and lower back ground noise.

 

Unshielded cable has lower capacitance and therefore a more open sound but has a higher back ground noise.

 

It seems that if the interference levels are not high then a more open sound would be better than a closed in sound assuming back ground noise is not intrusive?

[myPal]

Your system is getting distorted in so many ways.  Which distortion do you prefer?  From the way this thread has been running it seems clear that Brisbane has the most pleasant distortion from EMI/RFI on the whole eastern coast.  And it's probably true.   Want your system to sound better, move to Brisbane!

So can anyone here tell me how it is all sounding in Noosa?

[tesla13BMW]

I think you tipped over the whole damn worm farm

[Guest gmdb]

So why do those people who do own suitable equipment - and I include all of those magazines who measure components regularly - never publish cable measurements? And surely, if his equipment was poor, it would show up as poorer performance than the evenly good quality shown in his test? I can't see how anything "better" than these cables would give us an audible change. While the measurements are limited, they do address the two areas quoted by supporters of unshielded cables- stereo imaging (crosstalk) and frequency response differences, at least in the audible range.

 

You ask a good question there.  I don't think those magazines have the accurate equipment that are needed to test cables.  I have looked into it and they cost way more money than you'd expect.  Thousands of dollars.  I have an accurate LCR meter and every time I use it I need to run two 30 second tests on it.  Those tests measure the internal resistance, capacitance and inductance of the meter and then zero it, so the internal measurements do not impact on the measurements I make on my cables.  A similar instrument that would cut out the internal frequency response, etc of the measuring instrument would cost a huge amount of money.  Even with LCR meters, the accuracy of what they can do for $200 has only improved in the last 5 years due to advances in technology. 

[Guest gmdb]

So from a few posts I have picked up that shielding adds to capacitance and results in a closed in sound and lower back ground noise.

 

Unshielded cable has lower capacitance and therefore a more open sound but has a higher back ground noise.

 

It seems that if the interference levels are not high then a more open sound would be better than a closed in sound assuming back ground noise is not intrusive?

 

Yes, but you do live in Brisbane.  Audio equipment sounds better here. 

[Guest gmdb]

So can anyone here tell me how it is all sounding in Noosa?

 

Depends on how many spliffs the listener has had.  An all in one midi system sounds good in Noosa. 

[Guest gmdb]

This thread will end up in the great debate

 

This thread will end up funny. I'm trying hard.  Taking the piss is the best medicine in the whole world.

[tesla13BMW]

Is the shielded cable people are referring to a coax i.e. signal as the inner conductor and the ground/return conductor is the shield

 

OR

 

Two cores as conductors with a shield around them that is grounded at the source end?

[myPal]

Depends on how many spliffs the listener has had. An all in one midi system sounds good in Noosa.

sí! The spanish dude at Miss Moneypennys blends some good retro society mixes.

Edited May 27, 2016 by myPal

[Guest gmdb]

Andy

 

I'll PM you about this tomorrow. 

 

"Certainly - it's A vs. B ... and whether the negative effect from A outweighs the negative effect of B.

 

But I'm interested to know what your view of the negative effect of shielding is."

 

I'm well aware of the rules of SNA about not promoting my commercial interests in their public forum.  I can't answer your question without doing that. 

 

cheers

 

Geoff

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Is the shielded cable people are referring to a coax i.e. signal as the inner conductor and the ground/return conductor is the shield

 

OR

 

Two cores as conductors with a shield around them that is grounded at the source end?

 

Both.

[andyr]

Andy

 

I'll PM you about this tomorrow. 

 

"Certainly - it's A vs. B ... and whether the negative effect from A outweighs the negative effect of B.

 

But I'm interested to know what your view of the negative effect of shielding is."

 

I'm well aware of the rules of SNA about not promoting my commercial interests in their public forum.  I can't answer your question without doing that. 

 

cheers

 

Geoff

 

OK, thanks, Geoff.

 

Andy

[davewantsmoore]

I don't think those magazines have the accurate equipment that are needed to test cables.

 

What type of accurate equipment are you referring to?  (ie. what types of tests)

 

The equipment mentioned earlier from the archimago blog, is perfectly accurate enough to reliably produce the results he posted.    You might be talking about some other types of tests though.

[davewantsmoore]

accurate LCR meter

 

Ah, I see.   This is useful to quantify the properties of a cable itself.....   but doesn't say anything specifically about what happens to a signal you pass through a cable (which is what matters).

 

Measuring the signal as it enters and leaves a cable (and quantifying the distortion), is the primary measurement of interest?   Yes?    (at least in so far as quantifying how much a cable is distorting a signal passing through it)

[Addicted to music]

Ah, I see.   This is useful to quantify the properties of a cable itself.....   but doesn't say anything specifically about what happens to a signal you pass through a cable (which is what matters).

 

Measuring the signal as it enters and leaves a cable (and quantifying the distortion), is the primary measurement of interest?   Yes?    (at least in so far as quantifying how much a cable is distorting a signal passing through it)

Post 14 of this thread provided this link: http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/measurements-analogue-rca-interconnects.html

The conclusion contridicts what I've experience and it doesn't explain why I hear a difference between cables, maybe it's all in my head, but I'm sure the ear is an interesting set of test instruments. That said I will always use shielded cables.

[Addicted to music]

No unshielded cables for these set of ears...