andyr Posted July 24, 2016 Posted July 24, 2016 It isn't getting out of the computer, and into another component.... but rather the computer "getting interrupted and taken off task" when it should be doing the music, resulting in glitchy ticks and pops, or worse.... the solution is in the computer software / configuration. Sure - that may well be the case. However, a very simple experiment will enable Keith to see whether your hypothesis is correct ... or not. (Put a hash filter between the computer and the wall.) Andy
Keith_W Posted July 24, 2016 Author Posted July 24, 2016 Mustud, the analog crossover was able to solve a couple of problems - 1. flat frequency response, and 2. excellent resolution. The remaining problem was time coherence, and it is a big one. There is no way to solve it, except through DSP. The problem is, I have not been impressed with any of the DSP solutions until now. Well, perhaps it is premature to say. I will know better once the NADAC is in place.
Super Mustud Posted July 24, 2016 Posted July 24, 2016 Mustud, the analog crossover was able to solve a couple of problems - 1. flat frequency response, and 2. excellent resolution. The remaining problem was time coherence, and it is a big one. There is no way to solve it, except through DSP. The problem is, I have not been impressed with any of the DSP solutions until now. Well, perhaps it is premature to say. I will know better once the NADAC is in place. Goodo. Perhaps it would be useful to visit Wadiaman's new very serious Kyron system. Phil (Luckydog) might have a view.
warweary Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 Has OP tried changing the mouse? I use a wireless key and mouse on my htpc/audiopc, no clicks or pops.
Keith_W Posted July 25, 2016 Author Posted July 25, 2016 Yes, I have a Logitech K830 wireless keyboard, also an old IBM PS/2 keyboard and a Microsoft USB mouse. Same results with all of these.
warweary Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 Tried swapping software, jriver, jplay, spotify, foobar, vlc? You're not having much luck Keith, a poweramp fried and more.
andyr Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) Mustud, the analog crossover was able to solve a couple of problems - 1. flat frequency response, and 2. excellent resolution. The remaining problem was time coherence, and it is a big one. There is no way to solve it, except through DSP. The problem is, I have not been impressed with any of the DSP solutions until now. Well, perhaps it is premature to say. I will know better once the NADAC is in place. Would you like to attend my next (small) gtg, Keith - just to listen to a DSP solution? (I say 'small' bcoz I only have 3-4 guests each time, due to the room size.) I certainly can't hear any downside. (And then you can hear 'non-boxy' sound.) Andy Edited July 25, 2016 by andyr
Sir Rab of Everest Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 As a first step, I would try moving the PC away from everything else, and see if that fixes the problem.
AudioGeek Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 Keith, could you share with us how you generated the convolution filters in Acourate. What hardware do you use for ADC and DAC conversion when measuring?
Keith_W Posted July 26, 2016 Author Posted July 26, 2016 Hi Audiogeek, at the moment Acourate is installed on the audio PC (and not on the laptop). It outputs the signal via USB into a Focusrite 2i2, which has phantom power for the Dayton calibrated microphone I am using. The Focusrite then sends its analog output into the preamp, and into the rest of the system. When I upgrade to the NADAC, I will have a problem. Because the NADAC does not have a microphone input with phantom power, I will be unable to do measurements. I have been chatting with Uli Brueggemann (author of Acourate) about a solution. His recommendation is to use a multi-channel DAC with phantom power (like an RME Fireface) to do the measurements. Once I have the filters, I substitute the Fireface for the NADAC. 1
CryptiK Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Just my 2c on the pc noise issue. I run my pc (high power gaming system, watercooled, 3 x graphics cards, 1200w switch mode psu) into my headphones amp and near field monitors. When using the headphone setup, there was some background hum and noise when I moved the mouse, and occasional clicks/pops. When using the Burson Timekeeper monoblock with the near field monitors the noise was unbearable. Only thing that I could do to stop it was using optical to connect the pc to the DAC. There was still a little noise from the power supply as it was all on the same circuit but it was barely audible. The optical did sound worse, especially since I'd paid for the upgraded USB module in the DAC, but it was quiet and by any measure still sounded good. I've left it this way since. Unfortunately home computers are noisy electrical environments, passing noise into the USB data/power and injecting noise back into the house power. Super frustrating to use then as a front end. Best of luck sorting it out, the feature set and power of the software alludes to huge potential if you can work out the wrinkles.
Happy Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 @@CryptiK optical resolved quite a few noise issues for me too. I can't tell sonic difference. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
CryptiK Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) Im not sure Keith would be keen to go that way permanently, I found a lot of naysayers of optical, but for me it's the only way to electronically isolate the pc from the DAC. I tried running my isotek power board/filter and it made a slight difference at best. The noise was definitely coming down the USB cable from the pc. If there's a device that decouples a USB to USB connection perhaps that would also be worth trying. Or perhaps the Sonore rendu, Ethernet from PC then USB to DAC? For me anyway optical was the cheapest solution, cable was under $200 and the sound quality with Burson Conductor and Denon D7000's still excellent. However with a system as good as Keith's and an ear as well tuned as his, it may not be acceptable. Edited July 31, 2016 by CryptiK
frankn Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Dunno if something like the PS Audio LanRover would help you with interference but it seems like it is marketed along those lines? Excuse the marketing hyperbole - LanRover is undergoing Beta testing atm and if interested you can read about the pro's and con's people are reporting back on the PS Audio website in the Accessories, cables and room tuning Forum / thread: Beta testers wanted for LANRover Details USB connects computers to all sorts of things: printers, mice, hard drives, CD players, memory sticks, and DACs. USB (Universal Serial Bus) is an excellent interface for computers and peripherals, but less so for sensitive high-end audio equipment. USB connections tie computer power supplies, grounds and noise to connected devices—an unimportant fact for a printer, sonically degrading for a sensitive DAC. Audiophiles spend a great deal of time and money dealing with USB’s pollution and shortcomings: exotic cables, filters, hubs, and external power supplies among the many. Unfortunately, none work as well as we would hope for. Like the challenges inherent in repairing our homes AC power, filters and Band Aids help, but do not solve the problem. Regenerating new power for AC, or new audio for USB, does. PS Audio’s LANRover is unique among USB audio connection devices. Inserted between the computer’s USB output and a DAC’s USB input, LANRover provides 100% galvanic isolation while regenerating new jitter-free audio data for the first time. Removing computer generated pollution has major sonic benefits. For perhaps the first time, a new level of clarity emerges from a velvety blackness. Space around each performer is noticeably enhanced, while the glare of digital’s edge is replaced by a fullness in the lower registers that’s startling. Soundstage width and depth is noticeably wider and deeper and performers now seem in the room on some recordings. The improvements are remarkable. LANRover is a matched pair solution to the problems of USB audio. The first of the two devices connects to the USB output of the computer or server. Here, timing, noise, jitter, ground, and power supply voltages from the computer are abandoned, and a new individually packetized datastream is regenerated. Unlike USB audio packets, these new data are in a different format, one that does not suffer USB’s shortcomings. Data are regenerated in new form and sent over a Cat5 cable in the same format as music you might download from a distant server. Just as you can download and share high resolution music over the internet without compromising performance—and send it next door or around the world—this newly generated data is impervious to distance or cable types. Once regenerated, data can now travel as near or as far as you need. Use the supplied 1 foot long CAT5 to connect the regenerator to the reclocker to clean up your audio, or route that same data through your home network to distance the computer from the DAC, and the shocking level of improvement provided by LANRover in each case is identical
andyr Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 I didn't mean to imply the underlined parts. It is totally possible. It's actually not an uncommon problem. Having the wrong drivers installed. Having an IRQ or resource conflict between the interface the audio device uses, and some other thing in the computer. If you google, it there are many people suffering from the same issue (and much discussion of the troubleshooting and solutions). It isn't getting out of the computer, and into another component.... but rather the computer "getting interrupted and taken off task" when it should be doing the music, resulting in glitchy ticks and pops, or worse.... the solution is in the computer software / configuration. Im not sure Keith would be keen to go that way permanently, I found a lot of naysayers of optical, but for me it's the only way to electronically isolate the pc from the DAC. I tried running my isotek power board/filter and it made a slight difference at best. The noise was definitely coming down the USB cable from the pc. If there's a device that decouples a USB to USB connection perhaps that would also be worth trying. Or perhaps the Sonore rendu, Ethernet from PC then USB to DAC? For me anyway optical was the cheapest solution, cable was under $200 and the sound quality with Burson Conductor and Denon D7000's still excellent. However with a system as good as Keith's and an ear as well tuned as his, it may not be acceptable. Hi Keith, dwm has suggested that having 'clicks' occur through the speakers when you move your mouse is caused by a (bad) computer configuration. (Which sounds reasonable - 'xcept you need to know how to select the right configuration! ) C has suggested it is noise passing along the USB cable - and so you need to 'decouple' a USB-to-USB connection. Which also sounds like it could be the problem. If you would like to try it, I have an Sbooster 'USB Isolator' that you could try out. I would imagine this would go in series with the USB cable connecting your computer with the rest of your system - if it fixes the problem, it will cost you $30. Andy
Keith_W Posted July 31, 2016 Author Posted July 31, 2016 Hey guys, I have ordered a Merging+ NADAC - it is an 8 channel DAC. There is only one way to feed input into this DAC, and that's via AES67 (ethernet) using an RJ45 cable. I have also emailed UpTone Audio with some enquiries about ordering a Linear PSU for the PC. Somewhat miffed there is no reply just yet, but then it was over the weekend. I'll wait a few days and if there is still no reply, i'll order something else.
CryptiK Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 Interested to hear how the new DAC works out. Honestly not sure a linear PSU will do much, there's PWM style VRM's on the motherboard itself and this will be making lots of noise too. Here's hoping, though!
Zammo Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) Looking great Keith. The problem of using a separate transport and DAC for DSD layer of SACD's is a constant one for those with big SACD collections. I went with an MSB universal transport (based on Oppo 103) and DAC combo to deal with it. Plays pretty much any digital format you can throw at it sent to DAC in native resolution over proprietary I2S pro connection. Edited August 2, 2016 by Zammo
andyr Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Hey guys, I have ordered a Merging+ NADAC - it is an 8 channel DAC. There is only one way to feed input into this DAC, and that's via AES67 (ethernet) using an RJ45 cable. I have also emailed UpTone Audio with some enquiries about ordering a Linear PSU for the PC. Somewhat miffed there is no reply just yet, but then it was over the weekend. I'll wait a few days and if there is still no reply, i'll order something else. What voltage does the linear supply have to output (for your PC), Keith? An Sbooster linear PS might be what you are looking for. If it's 12v, I have one you can try out. Andy
Guest Point source Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Good. This is the future. I have left IT behind so for the less informed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67
Keith_W Posted August 2, 2016 Author Posted August 2, 2016 Interested to hear how the new DAC works out. Honestly not sure a linear PSU will do much, there's PWM style VRM's on the motherboard itself and this will be making lots of noise too. Here's hoping, though! Yes, I am not sure what improvement a linear PSU will bring. Still, lots of people report improvements with linear PSU's, so it doesn't hurt to try. Linear PSU's are cheap enough for me not to worry about the cost. Looking great Keith. The problem of using a separate transport and DAC for DSD layer of SACD's is a constant one for those with big SACD collections. I went with an MSB universal transport (based on Oppo 103) and DAC combo to deal with it. Plays pretty much any digital format you can throw at it sent to DAC in native resolution over proprietary I2S pro connection. I would like to try that too, but the problem is that I want DSD, AND I want DSP to be applied to DSD. Only one way to do that, as far as i'm aware ... What voltage does the linear supply have to output (for your PC), Keith? An Sbooster linear PS might be what you are looking for. If it's 12v, I have one you can try out. Andy Hey Andy, I wouldn't know what voltage I need for my mobo without looking it up. It is a pretty standard Mini-ITX mobo, so I presume it would adhere to the standard. Well, it almost definitely does, given that I am using an off-the-shelf SMPS PSU at the moment. I just don't know what the standard is
andyr Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Hey Andy, I wouldn't know what voltage I need for my mobo without looking it up. It is a pretty standard Mini-ITX mobo, so I presume it would adhere to the standard. Well, it almost definitely does, given that I am using an off-the-shelf SMPS PSU at the moment. I just don't know what the standard is All you need to do, Keith, is look on the underside of the SMPS case ... if it's anything like the little 'brick' which feeds my desktop PC it will say something like: Input: 100-240v, 50-60Hz, 1.5A Output: 19v, 4.7A It's the '19v' I'm interested in. Regards, Andy
CryptiK Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 I'd bet my left nut on it having the typical 12v, 5v and 3.3v outputs.
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