hifiscot Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Hi Folks - please be gentle this is my first proper post on stereonet, I look forward to joining the hifi obsession related chat here and on other threads... Having recently become obsessed with all things hi fi I'm trying to set up my first 'proper' system with the main aim to playback vinyl. A couple of points to note: - Aesthetics are very important to me (love the classic vintage design of tt's and amps from the 70's & 80's) - Love the classic designs of Linn LP12s and Thorens TD-160 - Wooden plinth for the tt and wooden enclosure for the speakers is a must. - Already have a Technics SU-7300 amp which I want to use in the system (I understand this could be a weak link in the system but I already own it and it's in good nick and I love the look - may get upgraded down the line). - Budget ~AUD$3k - Open to new but swinging to vintage for the tt - Listent o classic rock and pop the most with some alt/indie guitar driven type stuff - so mid range and bass is key I guess. Currently looking at: Linn LP12 (circa 1974) fully refurbished with a grace g707 tone arm and ortofon 2m blue cart - approx. $2k Castle Knight 2 speakers $600 with stands $300 Technics SU-7300 amp (already own) If anyone can help with any hints and tips on whether this system would work, complement each other or is just plain downright ridiculous??!! Wondering if I'm weighting my cost too much to the tt or if people think a Linn of that era will not live up to its reputation?? I was originally going to go a for a new Thorens TD240 (I like the fact that it's automatic and it has a sexy wooden plinth - I can hear the audiophiles groan already!!). Altho In general I'm not a huge fan of other new tts due to the glossy/satin finishes they all seem to come in. Any advice or other suggestions much appreciated, thank you in advance! Cheers hifiscot
==A== Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Don't be so hard on your amp - if you love it, keep it. Looks count... purists will gasp at the thought, but it's hard to love ugly gear.
TFJ100 Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Hard to go wrong with a Linn...they sound great and are very re-sellable if you decide you prefer a different sound...however supply and demand seems to be damping prices at the moment, so I wouldn't be paying $2k for the specs you have identified, unless it has a few other goodies as well. From what I have learned, there are a few other upgrades which may have been done, or if you buy cheap, can be done: 1) Power Supply - early one would likely need replacement. Linn started selling the Valhalla upgrade in the 80s - if it has that it might need re-capping, or else a cost-effective upgrade would be a Mose/Hercules Power Supply (or maybe one might be available with a Linn Lingo which was an advance on Valhalla) 2) Arm - Grace was common on earlier LP12s, otherwise an Ittok might be available and would give better sound. The one I bought has a Rega RB301 which is looked down upon by the Linn establishment, but I think it sounds pretty good, so I'm sticking with it. 3) Subchassis - Kore upgrade is supposed to be a good one, but expensive 4) Then you can get a Cirkus bearing upgrade, with a new baseboard, or else a new top plate - these arguably have less impact on sound, but the Cirkus might do if your bearing is knackered 5) A reinforced plinth could improve SQ 6) Finally, early models had fixed hinges whereas later ones had a removable lid (clear instead of original black) I guess the summary of all that is that there are plenty of options if you end up suffering upgrade-itis and want to keep tweaking. Amps can be a bit invisible or else important depending on your point of view, so I think you can justify keeping the Technics while you learn about the subtleties of amps and whether it is worth spending money to get an improvement. Re speakers - I am not that familiar with the Castles, but there are a lot of different options giving different outcomes, so you might also want to learn what is important to you. For example if bass is important you might want larger 3-way speakers. As far as recent upgrades go, I bought some Jamo s608s which have the modern "side-woofer" and give a beautifully integrated, very musical sound with deep bass.- a very good value for money speaker...but they don't look very traditional (and they have fake wood cabinets - admittedly very good ones). They've since been replaced and are ready to be sold off. Kef LS50s have had rave reviews and you might get some a little over your budget, otherwise there are quite a few options in that under $1k mark. Others may have better suggestions or different views...there is a hi-fi show in Melbourne this weekend...maybe worth a visit and a chat to different people to get different views and experiences. Good luck on your journey! Torben 1
Guest Hensa Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) I'd seriously consider allocating a bigger portion of your budget towards the speakers. While the Castles are fine, it would be smart to do some extensive auditioning as this will be the biggest influence on the sound. Some information about your room (size, floor surface, soft furnishings, etc) as well as the type of music and typical listening volume would be really helpful. It may be that floorstanders rather than standmounts will be suitable. As far as the LP12 is concerned, a great choice if you're after the vintage look and a myriad of upgrade options await. It's worth checking what upgrades may already have been done as "fully refurbished" can mean many things when it comes to Sondeks! The arm and cart are fine although a well fettled LP12 does deserve better than a Blue - a Bronze would be a significant step up. I think the Technics is fine although fairly low powered. It will drive the Castles without a problem. The 40W output into 8 ohms may suggest that speakers with nominal impedance below 8 ohms will be less suitable. I'd be looking at speakers with 8ohms nominal and 87dB or higher sensitivity. Your preferences are your own as are your ears so your best course is to try and listen to the components (preferably together but not always possible) and then make some informed decisions. Most importantly, enjoy the experience! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited June 28, 2016 by Hensa
BATMAQN Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 I'd seriously consider allocating a bigger portion of your budget towards the speakers. While the Castles are fine, it would be smart to do some extensive auditioning as this will be the biggest influence on the sound. +1 Do not underestimate how much of a difference good speakers make along with room treatments. (positioning as well)
hifiscot Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 Thank you all so much for the advice so far....much appreciated. ==A== - I think your right, I'll be keeping it with the mindset to maybe upgrade if I ever get seriously serious about this game! tfj100 - On the LP12 price point, very interesting. I'm struggling to find any LP12's at that price point in the usual places (e-bay, gumtree etc.), a lot of them are upgraded/later models that are more expensive (and/or overseas which I'm unsure about getting shipped). I'm also struggling to find 2nd hand hi fi dealers in Melbourne - perhaps I need to ask the forum for any good places in Melbourne for used tt's where I can go touch, feel and listen to some LP12's. The one I'm looking at is pretty standard I think but I'll ask a few more questions and maybe haggle a bit on the price given your comments. The re-saleability of the deck and the upgradeability are a couple of the many reasons I'm very keen on an LP12. I'll do some research on the speakers you have mentioned. Hensa - Point taken on upping the focus on the speakers, seems to be a common thread with my set up. My listening/living room is about 5m x 7m carpeted with full floor to ceiling windows on one side with blinds, building is older so pretty solid and listening volume would ordinarily be (emmmmm I dunno how to express this in words or units of measurement!!) medium but everyone likes the chance to bump it up after a beer or two!! As mentioned to tfj100 I think the LP12 is pretty standard but will look at what a bronze cart would cost. batmaqn - Gonna put a bit more focus/thought in to my speakers including listening to as many as I can - seems I might be getting further away from a purchase rather than closer - so many options!!! All - Thanks again for the notes, appreciate it. Gonna try get along to the hi fi show this weekend to listen to as many speakers as I can, hope they have a good range that fit my price point / thinking. Cheers hifiscot
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 It looks to me as though Sondeks are starting to go up in price again. There are a couple on sale/recently sold here that you can look at to get a feel for what you might get, and maybe better options than the one you're looking at. I note the room size. While I've used standmount speakers in a room bigger than yours in the past (which I had one that size now!), I'd guess the Knight 2's may be lost in a big room. These are in the classifieds here, and should (just about) work with the Technics amp: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php/topic/104620-fs-naim-credo-floorstanders/ I heard a pair when they first came out, driven by an old Naim Nait to good levels in a large room.
RoHo Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Linn LP12's have huge brand kudos, are very collectable and have long list of mods you can do to them. IMO this is code for "expensive" , "not great value" and "need lots of fiddling to sound their best " If this appeals then by all means go for an LP12. If not then look at a Thorens at a fraction of the cost and divert the funds towards speakers. With a limited budget I think putting so much of it into an LP12, particularly if the looks are the main attraction, may not give the best result. 1
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 WAY too much money allocated to the turntable. Spend most of your budget on the speakers. IMO, $2k for the Linn listed is far too much. I picked up a late model Linn + Ittok + Denon MC a couple of years back for less than $2k. The Ittok is a far superior arm and the late model Linn is far superior to a 1974 vintage one. I'd have thought about a Grand for the turntable you listed would be about right. Even so, you're throwing money at the wrong end. Spend most of your budget on the speakers.
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Linn LP12's have huge brand kudos, are very collectable and have long list of mods you can do to them. IMO this is code for "expensive" , "not great value" and "need lots of fiddling to sound their best " If this appeals then by all means go for an LP12. If not then look at a Thorens at a fraction of the cost and divert the funds towards speakers. With a limited budget I think putting so much of it into an LP12, particularly if the looks are the main attraction, may not give the best result. LP12's do require proper setup. So do the traditional Thorens belt drive decks like the 160/150/166. I've had 166 and 160, and a loan LP12, admittedly many years ago. The LP12 is just a better turntable, and I'd still go source first moneywise, especially with vinyl. That is not meant to decry the importance of the speakers: but the OP is using a 1970s 37w amp, and is hardly in the running for most of the speakers that get recommended on this site without probably spending much more on the amp!
Happy Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 i'll go against the majority and tell the OP to do what he planned to do. the look means a lot to many of us. and if you feel the SQ is shht then you can repent a little and upgrade your amp and speakers. it's not like this is going to be an ending game thing anyway 2
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) WAY too much money allocated to the turntable. Spend most of your budget on the speakers. IMO, $2k for the Linn listed is far too much. I picked up a late model Linn + Ittok + Denon MC a couple of years back for less than $2k. The Ittok is a far superior arm and the late model Linn is far superior to a 1974 vintage one. I'd have thought about a Grand for the turntable you listed would be about right. Even so, you're throwing money at the wrong end. Spend most of your budget on the speakers. I'm really regretting not putting a Linn in the cupboard a couple of years ago when I first came to look at upgrading (just in case I ever have space for a TT again!). I saw mid-80s versions going for under a grand then. Unfortunately it seems that $1500+ is what even the old ones are going for now. There are possibly better ones on here at around the $2k price than the one referred to here. The problem with Sondeks is what upgrades have been added - the refurb may have made the deck closer to latest specs than others, so how do you judge the right price? Edited June 29, 2016 by Eggcup The Daft
Al.M Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) On the speakers the $300 stands could go towards better speakers as cheaper used stands can be found for $50 in gumtree. $900 for used speaker can get you some very good ones either standmount, floorstander or old school 3 way large ones on cheaper stands. Can be uncommon but something like a $900 Jamo Concert 8 of ultra high quality design and sound should blow away something like a Castle. Others like Whatmough 202, Spendor s1/2 and Proac Studio 100 would be good as well. Edited June 29, 2016 by Al.M
RoHo Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) i'll go against the majority and tell the OP to do what he planned to do. the look means a lot to many of us. and if you feel the SQ is shht then you can repent a little and upgrade your amp and speakers. it's not like this is going to be an ending game thing anyway Agreed, but if a Thorens is as aesthetically pleasing and ultimate SQ is not the primary goal then why spend so much more for an LP12? Instead spend it on second-hand vinyl or even furniture or period accessories to complement the look ! Edited June 29, 2016 by RoHo 2
Happy Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Agreed, but if a Thorens is as aesthetically pleasing and ultimate SQ is not the primary goal then why spend so much more for an LP12? Instead spend it on second-hand vinyl or even furniture or period accessories to complement the look ! that's true but it's also about the prestige and the sense of i belong to the cool guys not saying thorens ain't cool but you get the drift....
TFJ100 Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 If you guys are going to debate how much is too much % of the budget to spend on turntable, then the logical conclusion is to say that spending ANY money on a turntable these days doesn't make sense. Even records usually cost about $50 now From a rational persective, the OP would be better off getting a Tidal Premium subscription ($24 a month), a decent streamer, and spending more money on the rest of the system. I quite like having the option of spinning LPs to match my mood, but I would say that there is only a certain percentage of recordings that are even worth playing on LP. Plenty of rock music doesn't sound better on vinyl, even if you have the right turntable. I spend time trying to add more acoustic, instrumental, jazz, and breathy vocals to my vinyl collection, rather than your common modern rock/pop bands 1
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Since when did we become rational around here? If hifiscot wants to go further but keep the aesthetic he has lots of options in terms of amps and speakers to upgrade to later. I'd be looking for something grand and older in the speaker line for that big room and would wait for the right item, perhaps. He'll need a speaker that will fill the room and work with that old amp to start off with, or to go over budget (of course, we always want people to spend ten times their budget here don't we?). Regarding the turntable, spending $500 on some old 1980s Japanese job is more in line with the common suggestions here but for this requirement I'd go with a Sondek if in reach. Assuming future upgrades or not, it will give good sound with the desired aesthetic and can be upgraded to sound in line with top class modern standards. I know my approach here is old school British system building - but I'm English and in my fifties so what do you expect? I still look at my current system with the speakers costing nine times my most used source - culture shock. hmm since when did LP12 become a beauty queen? Correct setup - most important. Always was, still is. Edited June 29, 2016 by Eggcup The Daft
hifiscot Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 Thanks again all for the commentary... Egg Cup The Daft - I like the look of those Naim floorstanders with the covers off, will defo research and maybe see if I can get a listen - thanks. Re. your last post...I should add I'm Scottish so have a bit of affection for the LP12s heritage (built in Glasgow). RoHo - If as suggested by most here the speakers should be getting more of a share of the budget then a thorens may well be the route (or even if I stick with the castles its still in the mix), only problem being the one I really like is the td-160 which seems relatively rare and may even still attract a premium price. AI. M / Zaphod - point taken on the speaker spend. Going to see what I can find at the hi fi show this weekend for a listen and get as many ideas as possible. Will look at the speakers suggested in this string - thanks. davidro - I think your right not going to be an ending game....or a cheap one!! tfj100 - I'm hoping vinyl will open up my ears wider too - I listed a very narrow preference of music as that is my daily listening preference but I do go a fair bit wider and obscure too! Lots of food for thought for me here - I thought posting the question would help not make the decision harder!! I guess that's all part of the thrill of the chase!
RoHo Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Thanks again all for the commentary... Egg Cup The Daft - I like the look of those Naim floorstanders with the covers off, will defo research and maybe see if I can get a listen - thanks. Re. your last post...I should add I'm Scottish so have a bit of affection for the LP12s heritage (built in Glasgow). Maybe what you really want, in your deep down subconscious, is an all-Linn system A semi-serious suggestion: Legend speakers, a well regarded Oz manufacturer, is run by Dr Rod Crawford.......who used to work for Linn! And their speaker are very well finished with a classical look. 1
Happy Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Seriously Linn components are an eyesore the OPs silver stuff would look way better Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Al.M Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 On the speakers for $900 look for used instead of new as its possible to find used one that was new for 2-3 times that price so better value.
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Thanks again all for the commentary... Egg Cup The Daft - I like the look of those Naim floorstanders with the covers off, will defo research and maybe see if I can get a listen - thanks. Re. your last post...I should add I'm Scottish so have a bit of affection for the LP12s heritage (built in Glasgow). The Naims are used, listed in the classifieds here, just post in the thread for info from the seller. There are some others listed that may interest you but are all interstate. Take a look.
Fun-Ghoul Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Has the OP considered a Systemdek or Ariston turntable? Some of these manufacturers' models have the beautiful vintage look and are available for much less than the Linns. What are people's thoughts about these? Re the Castle Knight 2 - I have a pair of these and can vouch for how good they are, especially for the money you quoted. I used them for a while in a large room (converted double garage) and they performed well, though they sound much better in the smaller room they now live in. As mentioned by someone above, positioning with Castles is very important. In the context of a $900 spend, I agree that $300 for stands seems disproportionate if you are on a budget (though I do have the same stands and they are quite good and match the speakers nicely. Ensure they are rock steady as the speakers will reward you greatly for it. Like most speakers do, obviously). I don't know your amp, but if it is very warm, it may not bring out the best in the Castles - this I learned from experience with my own.
Jebediah Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Having purchased a bit of second hand gear (and most of it through stereo.net), I can honestly say that bang for buck is incredible. If you have a budget for speakers of around 1-1.5K you could potentially score yourself some an awesome sounding used bargain for a fraction of the RRP. Just have a browse through the classifieds. I picked up a pair of Athena Technology P3/S3's which were top of the line speakers back in 2002 for $500 in great condition, and they've added an element (mostly mid range) to my system that was sorely lacking. I still smile when I listen to my records now edit: take these for instance... http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php/topic/106820-fs-vienna-acoustics-mozart/ Edited July 2, 2016 by Jebediah
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