Why ? Why? Why?

[THOMO]

Well I was assuming that swapping the outputs and speakers over to the other side would have already been tried.So yes I agree with trying all that first.Especially considering other speakers have displayed the same problem.

From my experience some rooms just sound lopsided however and a small tweak of a balance control can fix the problem.

You can even have a perfectly symmetrical room that sounds lopsided because the wall materials on one side might be different to the other-a double brick wall on one side and single gyprocked wall on the other for example.

 

[bzr]

22 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

I don't agree with the recommendation for a preamp with balance controls as the first thing to try. THE first thing to try is to make sure the electronics upstream are working fine. If there is a channel imbalance in the electronics (easily diagnosed by swapping cables left to right), then find out which component it is, and get that fixed. Once that is ruled out, it will be a problem with either the speaker, or the room. If it is a problem with the speakers (diagnosed by swapping them left to right), then getting it fixed may be a bit of an issue. If it is a problem with the room, then try repositioning the speakers. These things cost nothing, and should be attempted first before buying more equipment. IF after all that has failed, then buy a preamp with balance control. 

Keith, it's called getting off your asz & stop being a lazy feck. Setting up a room with stereo gear to image properly & to find the ideal sound out of that space takes time & effort Money doesn't do it unless common sense & logic is applied.

[Addicted to music]

15 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Having a dodgy ear does not in itself cause you to lose the advantages of stereo. You can hear the advantages of stereo when being completely deaf in one ear, as you can find out by simple use of a mono button on an amp, a well setup system around it, and a REALLY GOOD earplug. Move the speakers to bad positions, or switch between stereo and mono, and you will still hear the difference quite easily. If you have some other hearing problems - severe loss at certain frequencies, bad tinnitus, loss within the range of spoken voice, then switching to mono can help.

There are other tricks for use with surround systems, fundamentally, running the centre speaker loud and everything else very low can help. My partner has hearing damage, and can't hear at all well with modern surround movies at the cinema, because the surround element causes confusion.

 

Funny that you said this @Eggcup The Daft

My cousin introduced me to hi-end (expensive audio). He had a Linn/Naim system driving Studio Spendors.  He took me to Encel and Soundcraftsmen back in the 80s and we help me get the stuff I can afford.  

It wasn't years latter when he decided to move to ACT to work and live he told me that he was deaf in one ear.  Yet I would have sworn that he's hearing was fine!  Just goes to show you can enjoy stereo even with one ear working.

[Misternavi]

my system sounds fine. you should have mine. want to swap?!!!!!?!?!!


Sent from my iPhone using Telepathy

[roh008]

The speakers are 2 meters tall and you sit 1.3m from them? If you are listening that close to the speakers simply get speakers that are designed for the purpose, nearfield listening, using a speaker such as the ones in the picture that is designed to be used in a different environment is like sitting in the sun and using a pair of magnifying glasses to reduce the glare from the sun when you wanted sunglasses?

You need the right tool for the right environment. Or Paul Spencer?

Also those mono blocks won't even be close to being used as sitting 1m away from from a 92db@1m speaker means you only need 1 watt for very loud music and 10 watts for 95dB of sound. Which won't be comfortable at that distance for long periods.
Some good advice has already been offered. Will be interesting to see how things are changed after the SnA community intervention.


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[analog brother]

disconnect everything.

start again.

from scratch.

change rooms if you can.

those speakers need space/air.

you are running a 747 in a scout hall.

if you can't change rooms, maybe change speakers.

try wilson duette 2's

or magico q1 

or tad ce-1

all great stand mounts that won't react too much with the room.

Edited January 4, 2017 by analog brother

[Satanica]

2 hours ago, analog brother said:

... maybe change speakers.

try wilson duette 2's

or magico q1 

or tad ce-1

all great stand mounts that won't react too much with the room.

 

Why? Because these speakers will produce less bass than the current? 

[Tommy107]

My suggestion is sell the speaker Gam , with Vitus i would think you will be more than happy with Magico Q3 ( for romantic sound ) or if you like a bit of extra bottom end i can sell you my Magico S5 . Money left over would go to Siltech Signature cable loom .
You would experience sound in very difference meaning , just like ad soul to music mate [emoji1362][emoji1362][emoji1362]

[Steve M]

After many years of thinking about purist approaches like a 'no balance control' situation, I have come to the conclusion that a balance control is essential. The benefits it brings to sort out equipment, recording and room imbalances far out weighs any supposed detrimental effect of adding an extra balance potentiometer to the audio chain.

 

The longer you are at this hobby the more sensitive you become to correct image placement and other nuances with your hifi system. In my own system (where I swap out components regularly), I have noticed channel imbalances from time to time and I agree with the OP that it can drive you to distraction. However, a simple twiddle of the balance control on the Supratek preamp will bring everything into perspective without a loss of fidelity.

 

Also, if its good enough for Accuphase to put a balance control in their top of the range C-3850 preamplifier (RRP $25K), then I think that it is must be good enough for most hi-end audio systems.

 

Steve.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Steve M

[davewantsmoore]

25 minutes ago, Steve M said:

I have come to the conclusion that a balance control is essential.

 

Absolutely.

 

If the level (and more importantly then entire frequency response) between L and R is not identical for a given listening position, then whole auditory illusion is ruined.

[GAM]

Again some brilliant ideas.
I really appreciate that.
Dynaudio EM are wonderful speakers but I think it's a mismatch of room and speakers.
In fact I have pushed speakers back but had to bring them together so now they are more in front of me now .
With speakers instead of my sides and being infront of me I feel there is more flesh on the vocals,
The sound is less lob sided.
When I sway my head to each side I just feel that I get the same kind of tone of sound in each side.
The problem arising with new set up is part of my lt speaker is coming in front of projector throw.
And secondly the bass has decreased
Thirdly part of the music where sound is recorded in a way that it's supposed to be coming from the individual speakers ,then it gets too sharp and strong ,intense for ears.
The other thing which HELPED a lot with lob side sound image is placing the bass traps very close to the back of speakers.
That really helped with imbalance.
It somehow prevent some sound waves to get absorbed before they can interrupt the sound image.
Mind you I still have to still place left side speaker asymmetrical behind the right speaker.
Shall post some pics when go home.



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[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Absolutely.

 

If the level (and more importantly then entire frequency response) between L and R is not identical for a given listening position, then whole auditory illusion is ruined.

Um.

 

I've listened to plenty of amplified and electronic concerts in reasonable size halls, from seats well to the side, and had no problem on many occasions, even where the mix has had little relationship to the positions of musicians on the stage. I think that there is a real problem if a band sells tickets for a thousand seat hall, and then only a couple of dozen people around the mixing desk get to hear things properly (and I know that happens too).

 

My current system allows me to vary my listening position a fair bit without losing the illusion, and I've heard other systems that can be listened to from off to one side and still work OK.

 

On the other hand, I've made use of a balance control myself in the past with different room/speakers/amp and I remain surprised that so many amps are sold without them.

 

Your point about frequency response is valid, certainly for directional hearing above 80Hz.

[roh008]

One other thing that is perplexing me is that if you are sitting less than 2m away from the speakers, there shouldn't be an audible difference between the two as room acoustics would have minimal affect due to the proximity of your listening position (ears) to the speakers.

 

What do you all think?

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by roh008
typo

[roh008]

5 minutes ago, GAM said:

And secondly the bass has decreased

 

This is surprising. As when sitting at 1m low end frequency notes would be partially formed. 30Hz length  is 11m 1/2 is 5.5m a quarter is 2.25m (remember you used to sit 1m away)

 

Also try removing the bass traps out of the room, I noted you have heavy curtains.

 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

2 minutes ago, roh008 said:

One other thing that is perplexing me is that if you are sitting less than 2m away from the speakers, their shouldn't be an audible difference between the two as room acoustics would have minimal affect due to the proximity of your listening position (ears) to the speakers.

 

What do you all think?

 

 

Looking at this particular case:

the OP is talking about the effect of moving his head. At a close distance, this may cause an effect a bit like you get if you wear headphones, and pull the cup away from one ear. It may do that for some drivers and not others, as well.

Moving the head will also change the listening position for each speaker, so speakers that vary more on and off axis will show that change in listening.

 

And don't forget that reflective wall at the back of the room, which has gone unnoticed here.

[roh008]

Out of interest, if you were 1.1/1.3m from the speakers, how far are you now?

 

Are you listening at the same dB (C) levels at your listening position? You have a beef power amp so you shouldn't struggle in this department. If you were in the Western suburbs I'd pop round to see if I can pick up what you are experiencing.  

[krebetman]

40 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Looking at this particular case:

the OP is talking about the effect of moving his head. At a close distance, this may cause an effect a bit like you get if you wear headphones, and pull the cup away from one ear. It may do that for some drivers and not others, as well.

Moving the head will also change the listening position for each speaker, so speakers that vary more on and off axis will show that change in listening.

 

And don't forget that reflective wall at the back of the room, which has gone unnoticed here.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if, at such a close distance, that effect would be phasing effects from the dual tweeters not integrating so close. Very slight distance or height differences between your position and each of the speakers might be causing uneven re-enforcement or cancellation.

 

If that were the case, AFAIK, all you could do is put your head in a vise, or increase the distance between speakers and the listening position.

[davewantsmoore]

48 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Um.   I've listened to plenty of amplified and electronic concerts in reasonable size halls

 

You are mixing up listening to live music, vs listening to a reproduction of live music through stereo speakers.

 

When you are listening to live music .... the difference in response (level, timing, etc.) between each ear gives you the sound of the musicians in the hall.   The differences in level are exactly what you want.

 

When you trying to reproduce that at home....  the differences in level, timing, etc. (which represent the sound of the musicians/hall) are already encoded into the signal ..... and so if your playback system distorts the signal further (by adding more differences in level, or timing, which aren't in the recorded signal) .... then this is distortion, and degrades the auditory illusion.

 

53 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

My current system allows me to vary my listening position a fair bit without losing the illusion, and I've heard other systems that can be listened to from off to one side and still work OK.

 

This is the (one of the) hallmark of a good system.

 

Most systems, even when they are setup so that the 'sweet spot' has equal levels and frequency response between L and R speaker   .....  outside this limited area, the L and R speaker are no longer similar, and the sound is distorted.

 

56 minutes ago, roh008 said:

One other thing that is perplexing me is that if you are sitting less than 2m away from the speakers, there shouldn't be an audible difference between the two

 

That would really depend on the speakers and how they are setup.   Whether the level, and frequency response of each is the same - can't really generalise about that.

 

48 minutes ago, roh008 said:

As when sitting at 1m low end frequency notes would be partially formed.

 

?   (This isn't how it works)

 

Yes, you can't hear the frequency until at least a complete wavelength has passed your ears .... but this is true, not matter where in the room you are.

[roh008]

1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said:

That would really depend on the speakers and how they are setup.   Whether the level, and frequency response of each is the same - can't really generalise about that.

On $150K+ you would not expect this? And how much or little of a difference can actually be heard? Across a frequency range the ear would struggle to pick up a small imbalance. I would think more people would be complaining a lot more about there systems?

 

1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said:

?   (This isn't how it works)

 

Yes, you can't hear the frequency until at least a complete wavelength has passed your ears .... but this is true, not matter where in the room you are.

?? Which is why I used the 30hz tone which is therefore incomplete unless you work on the half wave form or divisions thereoff.

 

High frequencies have short wave forms and are therefore completely formed (for the purpose of my example).

 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

32 minutes ago, roh008 said:

 

This is surprising. As when sitting at 1m low end frequency notes would be partially formed. 30Hz length  is 11m 1/2 is 5.5m a quarter is 2.25m (remember you used to sit 1m away)

 

Also try removing the bass traps out of the room, I noted you have heavy curtains.

 

The speakers are rear ported and the bass traps sat close behind them. The material they are made of, combined with the port output, will determine bass response, so it could quite easily fall. It could also be the case that lower bass was not being heard in the closer position - the "new" response may be more correct.

 

Part of what is going on here is that Mohammad has "learnt" the sound of an unusual setup, perhaps through chasing some particular aspect of the sound. Undoing that learning, for my mind, requires getting out and going to some live, unamplified concerts.

[davewantsmoore]

13 minutes ago, roh008 said:

On $150K+ you would not expect this? And how much or little of a difference can actually be heard? Across a frequency range the ear would struggle to pick up a small imbalance. I would think more people would be complaining a lot more about there systems?

 

Has not much to do with money.     Are you sitting equidistant from each speaker?   Is each speaker equidistant from boundaries?  (etc, etc.)

 

Most people do not know they have a "problem" until they here the problem fixed and say "that sounds better".

 

Yes, even very small differences in level, and frequency balance between L and R are audible.     When people say things like "3d imaging" .... or "lots of depth" ... or "can hear the precise location of everything" ..... what they are really saying is that L and R are equally matched in response.

 

16 minutes ago, roh008 said:

?? Which is why I used the 30hz tone which is therefore incomplete unless you work on the half wave form or divisions thereoff.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say sorry.   Perhaps I misunderstood your original message.

 

18 minutes ago, roh008 said:

High frequencies have short wave forms and are therefore completely formed (for the purpose of my example).

 

OK, if you mean that the bass sound waves won't "fully form" when you sit close to a speaker  (which I suspect you do after mentioning the high frequencies) .... then that is not correct.

 

18 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

The speakers are rear ported and the bass traps sat close behind them. The material they are made of, combined with the port output, will determine bass response, so it could quite easily fall.

 

Anything placed close to a port, will make the port behave like it is "blocked" ... and the speaker will act more like a sealed box  (which will cause the bass to drop off)

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

You are mixing up listening to live music, vs listening to a reproduction of live music through stereo speakers.

 

When you are listening to live music .... the difference in response (level, timing, etc.) between each ear gives you the sound of the musicians in the hall.   The differences in level are exactly what you want.

 

When you trying to reproduce that at home....  the differences in level, timing, etc. (which represent the sound of the musicians/hall) are already encoded into the signal ..... and so if your playback system distorts the signal further (by adding more differences in level, or timing, which aren't in the recorded signal) .... then this is distortion, and degrades the auditory illusion.

 

I should have been clearer about this, perhaps.

 

Have you ever been to, say, a Kraftwerk concert? Everything is processed, the sound bears no relationship to the position of the musicians. I got to see them twice in the old days when the musicians were playing as much as the sequencers. Once from what was pretty much the sweet spot, and once from way off to the left. Great sound from both positions. The point being, that electronic concerts of this type are effectively listening to large systems, whether stereo, mono or surround, and the best setups show what can be achieved in this regard.

For unamplified musicians, your comments are of course correct.

[roh008]

 

18 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

OK, if you mean that the bass sound waves won't "fully form" when you sit close to a speaker  (which I suspect you do after mentioning the high frequencies) .... then that is not correct.

They will form but would require a number of reflections from the walls to achieve this. 

@GAM - sorry pulling the thread OT

@davewantsmoore - am probably not explaining myself properly. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by roh008
Going OT

[GAM]

@roh008  I am in western subrubs.

 I would agree with @Eggcup The Daft that there is special thing about the sound coming from those close speaker come to you at certain angle , it feels that your are in the bubble of music and its more tangible  may be not as precise but it feels like its tickling your mind.

But having said that you miss the flesh on the vocals and  less precision but more realism .

Yes its amazing how just slight miss match position of my one speaker can either make the once speaker vanish ,especially the right speaker. It has to be place significantly closer to me than Left hand speaker.  What  I am saying is very real.

@Tommy107 I haven't  had a chance to listen to Magico seriously . 

Once I was looking for new speaker and by chance I bumped into DYNAUDIO evidence temptation in KLAPP audio video in Melbourne.

They were being driven by vitus integreted Ri 100  and that was the most amazing sound I  have  heard . So much realism and my test CD which I have always used to test system , I was looking around the whole room as I was chasing the sounds around , so real as if someone is there and I  could not stop smiling.

So  I know if the things are right these speakers can sound incredible.

I  wish you were in Melbourne  I could come and listen to your Magic S 5.

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

I should have been clearer about this, perhaps.

 

Have you ever been to, say, a Kraftwerk concert? Everything is processed, the sound bears no relationship to the position of the musicians. I got to see them twice in the old days when the musicians were playing as much as the sequencers. Once from what was pretty much the sweet spot, and once from way off to the left. Great sound from both positions. The point being, that electronic concerts of this type are effectively listening to large systems, whether stereo, mono or surround, and the best setups show what can be achieved in this regard.

For unamplified musicians, your comments are of course correct.

 

Live vs unamplified music, is mostly missing the point.

 

The point is, that if you want to reproduce music which is encoded with multiple channels  (ie. the levels and difference between channels contain information) .... then any change in the response between the channels = distortion.

 

So, at Kraftwerk, either there wasn't any "stereo" information encoded ..... or it wasn't important (you didn't miss it).