Rob181 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, sloper said: Goodaye all Its been done. http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html l will state as a engineer, Show me the data. regards Bruce Dear oh dear...would you compare tube amps using this procedure...
davewantsmoore Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 41 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Dear oh dear...would you compare tube amps using this procedure... How would it make any difference what the amp was? If you mean warm up / stabilisation, that is an issue for many amps - but you could have other cords available to keep them sicking over if you needed.
POV Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob181 said: Dear oh dear...would you compare tube amps using this procedure... Are you suggesting that tube amps do not display audible differences with power cables whilst other components do?
Rob181 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 22 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: How would it make any difference what the amp was? If you mean warm up / stabilisation, that is an issue for many amps - but you could have other cords available to keep them sicking over if you needed. 1 minute ago, POV said: Are you suggesting that tube amps do not display audible differences with power cables whilst other components do? What part of my question did both of you not understand...it is completely obvious to me so let me post it exactly as it was... "Dear oh dear...would you compare tube amps using this procedure... "
rocky500 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 2 hours ago, steve u said: Well I was thinking along the lines of 4 cables, with maybe 6-8 "changes" . Including where there may be no change at all, meaning same cable twice. Assistant records what each cables. Test subjects record results. Then at the end assistant reveals what cables were played at each change. Test subjects can choose to reveal tesults or not. Unless you can change the cables over in under 2 seconds, I doubt it is worth your time trying. 1
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 14, 2017 Volunteer Posted February 14, 2017 16 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Unless you can change the cables over in under 2 seconds, I doubt it is worth your time trying. why? I thought that people liked to "live" with changes for a while to really appreciate the difference. Surely that obviates the need for instant switching?
Guest m_james Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 2 hours ago, JSmith said: Ay? http://ascienceenthusiast.com/the-planets-are-not-that-much-into-you/ Further, in one of the more frequently cited study conducted in 1985, Shawn Carlson convincingly showed that the astrological evidence did not pass double-blind test – the hallmark of scientific method – and therefore is not scientifically valid. JSmith http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.686.5407 Abstract—Shawn Carlson’s 1985 study, published in Nature, which ended with a devastating verdict of astrology, is scrutinized. The design of Carlson’s study violated the demands of fairness and its mode of analysis ignored common norms of statistics. The study’s piecemeal analysis of sub-samples avoided testing the totals for astrological effects, as did the neglect of test power, effect size, and sample size. Nevertheless, a correct reanalysis of Carlson’s two astrological tests reveals that astrologers matched profi les of the California Personality Inventory to natal charts better than expected by chance with marginal signifi cance (three-way forced choice, p = .054), and that a positive result was replicable by a different assessment method (10-point rating, p = .04). The results are regarded as insuffi cient to deem astrology as empirically verifi ed, but they are suffi cient to regard Carlson’s negative verdict on astrology as untenable.
steve u Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 43 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Unless you can change the cables over in under 2 seconds, I doubt it is worth your time trying. 2 seconds...this our lounge not pit lane, so l think we would be looking like 20 seconds per change. I'm hoping for a hobby that gives me a lot of enjoyment I might find some differences with my ears. I'll stop calling it a blind trial because there will be people saying it isn't other other people understanding the concept that I'm trying to create and say it is. So it will be just another cable review without the bias of sight or price expectation. My memory is pretty dreadful anyway so 2 seconds, 20 seconds or instantly I'll be equally challenged.
rocky500 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: why? I thought that people liked to "live" with changes for a while to really appreciate the difference. Surely that obviates the need for instant switching? I now think most of the BT and DBT's you read about on the net where people do them in Audio at someones place might be great fun but are pretty meaningless with the results as it takes too long to swap over what they are testing. Just have to visit the Harbeth forums and follow Alan Shaw to get an idea that unless you switch in under 2 seconds that most probably will be too hard to hear a difference if it is small. You might as well stick to normal long relaxing listens at home as the pressure is lifted and the brain is relaxed and it is more enjoyable. I think it is why most BT's & DBT's you read about in Audio on the net tend to always end with no conclusive difference. The outcome will most probably be, they all sound the same. Edited February 14, 2017 by rocky500
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 14, 2017 Volunteer Posted February 14, 2017 1 minute ago, rocky500 said: I now think most of the BT and DBT's you read about on the net where people do them in Audio at someones place might be great fun but are pretty meaningless with the results. Just have to visit the Harbeth forums and follow Alan Shaw to get an idea that unless you switch in under 2 seconds there most probably will be too hard to hear a difference. You might as well stick to normal long relaxing listens at home as the pressure is lifted and the brain is relaxed. I think it is why most BT's & DBT's you read about in Audio on the net tend to always end with no conclusive difference. The outcome will most probably be, they all sound the same. I guess my point is that people try to have it both ways - instant switching is claimed to be irrelevant when you do sighted tests because that's not the 'natural' way of appreciating gear. - but the moment you take sight away, suddenly you have to have instant switching?? which is it, do you need it or don't you?
rocky500 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: which is it, do you need it or don't you? The real only meaningful positive results (if we want to use that term) would be blind tests with switching as fast as possible. Preferably no longer than 2 seconds. Thats why, I just prefer reading people opinions and take in as many as possible. So far they have lead me in a fairly good way. Edited February 14, 2017 by rocky500
rantan Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, rocky500 said: The real only meaningful positive results (if we want to use that term) would be blind tests with switching as fast as possible. Preferably no longer than 2 seconds. Why?
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 14, 2017 Volunteer Posted February 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, rocky500 said: The real only meaningful positive results (if we want to use that term) would be blind tests with switching as fast as possible. Preferably no longer than 2 seconds. Thats why, I just prefer reading people opinions and take in as many as possible. So far they have lead me in a fairly good way. so blind tests with slow switching can be dismissed but sighted tests with slow switching are ok ? Why? 1
rocky500 Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, rantan said: Why? Just read what Alan Shaw posts about on the subject. He put a big part of his success down to doing these tests in under 2 seconds to be able to hear the differences. Otherwise they just blend together and results in them sounding the same if the differences are small. If you go read his forums, you can see he is right into all this testing in ways more than most for Audio. Some here: LINK Edited February 14, 2017 by rocky500
crisis Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, m_james said: Edited February 14, 2017 by crisis delete
Guest BobbyD Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, crisis said: Author Suitbert Ertel Yep, certainly off topic now............ We need a DBT on fruit cake..... That's double blind tasting...... Edited February 14, 2017 by BobbyD
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, steve u said: Well I was thinking along the lines of 4 cables, with maybe 6-8 "changes" . Including where there may be no change at all, meaning same cable twice. Assistant records what each cables. Test subjects record results. Then at the end assistant reveals what cables were played at each change. Test subjects can choose to reveal tesults or not. Far too complicated. Whilst I applaud the sentiment, make it easy on yourself. Take a bog-standard, Australian approved cable and compare it to the most expensive one you can lay your hands on. Arrange for the cable to be swapped in and out (or left there) over the space of a week or so. Tabulate results. Just to be clear: You should not know which cable is being used AND you should not know if a cable has been changed at all. If a difference exists, you should be able to nominate that there is a difference. Edited February 14, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox 1
steve u Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Far too complicated. Whilst I applaud the sentiment, make it easy on yourself. Take a bog-standard, Australian approved cable and compare it to the most expensive one you can lay your hands on. Arrange for the cable to be swapped in and out (or left there) over the space of a week or so. Tabulate results. Just to be clear: You should not know which cable is being used AND you should not know if a cable has been changed at all. If a difference exists, you should be able to nominate that there is a difference. I might try both, the idea of getting results from an afternoon session appeals. And the idea of searching for differences that may be there over the course of a week is more of an exhaustive trial, but might be the way to go after the first experiment. If the first experiment yields any results at all. At this stage I should have access to Norsdost Red Dawn, Frey, Valhalla, Odin, KLEI gPower2, RK Cable and a Zion cable and of course standard cables.
Sir Rab of Everest Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 21 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Actually, the point that is exactly what can happen. If I get people to taste different tomato sauces without knowing what they are.... we will get one set of results ...... if we tell them things about the sauces (such as the brand, or price, or something else specific to the sauce), we typically get a different results set. Funny that tomato sauce should happen to be mentioned. When I was a teenager, my father re-married and suddenly I was living with a step mother and step brother. I didn't like the tomato sauce that my step mother bought and asked her to buy my preferred sauce, White Crow. One day I sat down at the dinner table and was confronted with two apparently identical dishes with tomato sauce in them. With huge smirks on heir faces, my step mother and brother challenged me to detect any difference between them. I tasted one and immediately said: "I don;t know what that is, but it's not White Crow". Both of them looked absolutely amazed: they could not believe that I could taste any difference. I could not believe that they could not! 2
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, steve u said: I might try both, the idea of getting results from an afternoon session appeals. And the idea of searching for differences that may be there over the course of a week is more of an exhaustive trial, but might be the way to go after the first experiment. If the first experiment yields any results at all. At this stage I should have access to Norsdost Red Dawn, Frey, Valhalla, Odin, KLEI gPower2, RK Cable and a Zion cable and of course standard cables. The problem I have with multiple cables, is that the results will be very confusing. What I am suggesting is that first establish that there is a difference between the bog-standard cable and the most highly regarded one. The idea behind running the test over a week or so, is to remove several potential problems: * The stress associated with rapid changes * The possibility that your hearing may be impaired some of the time. After you have determined that there is a difference (or not) between the best cable and the crappiest cable, then you may decide that further investigation is a waste of time and effort. 1
Sir Rab of Everest Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 19 hours ago, rocky500 said: To me It is just like those beauty queens in their beauty pageants always saying the world will be better if there was world piece. Great idea but will never happen. ... and harsher punishment for parole violators.
Soundwise Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Far too complicated. Whilst I applaud the sentiment, make it easy on yourself. Take a bog-standard, Australian approved cable and compare it to the most expensive one you can lay your hands on. Arrange for the cable to be swapped in and out (or left there) over the space of a week or so. Tabulate results. Just to be clear: You should not know which cable is being used AND you should not know if a cable has been changed at all. If a difference exists, you should be able to nominate that there is a difference. This idea is hilarious, a bog-standard power cable vs Nordost ODIN. Anyone care to take bets on this, happy to put money where my mouth is!!
Soundwise Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, steve u said: I might try both, the idea of getting results from an afternoon session appeals. And the idea of searching for differences that may be there over the course of a week is more of an exhaustive trial, but might be the way to go after the first experiment. If the first experiment yields any results at all. At this stage I should have access to Norsdost Red Dawn, Frey, Valhalla, Odin, KLEI gPower2, RK Cable and a Zion cable and of course standard cables. Good on you @steve ufor donating your valuable time to test power cables for fellow members 1
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 40 minutes ago, Soundwise said: This idea is hilarious, a bog-standard power cable vs Nordost ODIN. Anyone care to take bets on this, happy to put money where my mouth is!! Why do you think it is hilarious?
Soundwise Posted February 14, 2017 Posted February 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Why do you think it is hilarious? It's Ok if you don't share my sense of humor. Will @steve u 's test change your mind about audiophile power cables?
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