rantan Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 3:22 AM, m_james said: What could be realer than having been perceived? If I see you standing before me, can I not say you are real? Expand Perceived implies,by its actual definition, that one has come to some understanding of a situation or condition. It does not specifically and exclusively imply that this understanding is true, accurate or real. Perceptions may indeed be real on occasion but there is no implicit guarantee that they are true or real consistently 4
POV Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 @Soundwise The WAMM certainly looks like a phenomenal speaker. I didn't realise there was any in Australia. Perhaps you would consider a gtg at your home so we could have a chance to listen to such a high end system. The most expensive speaker I have listened to personally is the Dynaudio Evidence and I would love to listen to the WAMMs.
Guest m_james Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) On 13/02/2017 at 3:31 AM, POV said: Fantastic question. If you swear black and blue you can hear something, but no one else can hear it and there is no measurable change is it real? Expand Put it this way - there is always a chance something we perceive is unreal. We may be dreaming now and not realise it. If in order to be "real" you must eliminate every possibility for unreality, then the word has no meaning. BUT, even a dreamer's dream is real. How can you say it is not real? It is experienced. But it is also unreal. Therefore our perceptions are also real, whether or not they are experienced by others. Edited February 13, 2017 by m_james
rocky500 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) @initforthemusic Thanks so much for spending the time to do these comparisons and posting your opinions. Everyone can take it however they like, but me personally am very grateful to you. It is great to see other audio enthusiasts posting there impressions. It is nice for everyone to know before they rush out and buy one themselves, that they are aware that there are some pros and cons to using a mains power cable that is not certified for use in Australia. There can be some dire consequences if something were to go majorly wrong and someone was injured or your house burnt down with insurance and the law. It may not even be your cable but the device that it is plugged into that causes it, even a cable chewed by an animal etc but the insurance companies won't care or be easy to not prove it wasn't to blaim. If they see a non unapproved cable, that will be enough for them. The likely hood of this happening I think would be super rare but it does exist. I know the Audio Principe cables are ok and approved. I would think the the RK cables too. I would think most shoppers would be unaware of compliance of mains cables. I certainly wasn't until a little while ago. Everyone else can make that the decision themselves if they take the chance. Just like my mate does not believe in condoms on random hookups, wearing a bike helmet and numerous others. I think its ok as he does not get that lucky anyway. Edited February 13, 2017 by rocky500 2
acg Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) On 12/02/2017 at 12:02 PM, Soundwise said: Wow, you guys must be listening to mp3! A discussion about whether power cords make a difference is ancient history. We're all past that now. Expand No MP3 here. Nice one though to insult those that aren't drinking the kool-aid...so original. I know people that truly believe power cables make a difference to sound. I have an open mind and was intrigued by their "results" so I borrowed some inexpensive and expensive power cables to trial with my dac and could not figure out what the fuss was about. The only one to make a difference was the shielded cable which actually sounded sharper and worse but its effect can be explained by the fact that I was using unshielded interconnects at the time. I happily put the stock (unshielded) cord back into my dac and sent the other cords back to their respective owners. The cords may actually make a difference in the systems from which they came, but they did not in mine. A potential mitigating circumstance is that the dac and stock cord were reasonably new at that time and the mechanical IEC connection was probably still in very good condition in both. Sometimes I wonder if "improvements" due to change of power cords is due to simply swapping out a tarnished/worn connector for a good one. Any gear that I make these days has a captive lead so this dirty connection problem (if it is even a problem) is eliminated. IEC connectors are not there to improve the sound quality...they are there so the manufacturer can sell the same item into different countries with different mains power voltages and connectors. On 12/02/2017 at 12:02 PM, Soundwise said: A discussion about whether power cords make a difference is ancient history. We're all past that now. Expand Not all of us...obviously. Edited February 13, 2017 by acg 2
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 12/02/2017 at 11:52 AM, rantan said: I am quite sure there are no rules regarding what opinions may be posted in a particular thread so long as they are not insulting, demeaning or offensive,none of which are evident here Expand On 13/02/2017 at 12:15 AM, rantan said: Since exactly when, did any one require your approval, or your puerile patronising attitude? Expand Your adherence to your own first quote last all of 13 hours...what happened...get a knock back last night...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 12/02/2017 at 9:58 AM, Soundwise said: @davewantsmooreTell me something useful for once. As a consumer I have the right to buy whatever I want. Why don't you do some research and provide me with names of aftermarket power cables that sound good and have certification? I will buy them and do a shootout Expand Try these in a blind test and you'll buy them for everything in your system. https://www.jaycar.com.au/3pin-mains-plug-to-iec-c13-female-1-8m/p/PS4106 Do the test in a non-blind test and you will reject them. 3
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 12/02/2017 at 12:02 PM, Soundwise said: Wow, you guys must be listening to mp3! Expand Oh wow. Don't go there. 17 hours ago, Soundwise said: A discussion about whether power cords make a difference is ancient history. We're all past that now. Expand I agree. The first time I was presented with a power cable "that will make a HUGE difference to your system", was around 20 years ago. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. I then did what EVERYONE who thinks power cables make any sort of difference to a system. I invited believers around to evaluate various power cables (of their choosing) and compare them to a bog-standard, Australian approved IEC cable in a very high resolution system, consisting of: Modified Marantz CD80 ME24 preamp ME850 power amp Quad ESL63 speakers At no time could any listener detect which power cable was being used on the power amp. Moreover, no listener could hear if the cable had even been swapped. So yes, the power cable discussion is so over. Do the test blind and judge for yourself. 17 hours ago, Soundwise said: It's about which power cords sound better and where that are used in your system to change the sound. It's also about whether to use conditioning or plug direct or use non filtered power board, they all affect the sound. Expand Well, yes, those things may affect the sound. For solid, technical reasons. There is not one single technical reason why power cables should sound different, unless the cable is faulty in some way. 17 hours ago, Soundwise said: Even the position of the cord in the power board affects the sound. Expand Possible. Most power boards are crap. Even the expensive ones. Quality, HPM and Clipsal outlets are excellent quality, however.
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 3:22 AM, m_james said: What could be realer than having been perceived? If I see you standing before me, can I not say you are real? Expand There are a lot of things which affect how we subjectively perceive sound (as with all our other senses). It is common place to hear differences between things which are identical, or not hear differences between things which are audibly different, due to the complex way in which we perceive sound (in short - what we "hear" is not the sound, but the meaning our brain has attached to the sound event). The same version of this exists for our other senses. For example the rubix cube optical illusion. You don't perceive the actual colour.... you perceive the colour your brain assigns - using it's preconceptions and expectations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HoyVi6VYFQ
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 12/02/2017 at 11:50 PM, Soundwise said: It's OK if you can't hear subtle differences between different components and configurations, we are all at different levels in this hobby and in this audio journey. Some listen to Wilson Audio WAMM speakers while others are happy to listen to JB HiFi speakers Expand It never takes long for this one to get trotted out. 2
Guest m_james Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 5:46 AM, davewantsmoore said: There are a lot of things which affect how we subjectively perceive sound (as with all our other senses). It is common place to hear differences between things which are identical, or not hear differences between things which are audibly different, due to the complex way in which we perceive sound (in short - what we "hear" is not the sound, but the meaning our brain has attached to the sound event). The same version of this exists for our other senses. For example the rubix cube optical illusion. You don't perceive the actual colour.... you perceive the colour your brain assigns - using it's preconceptions and expectations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HoyVi6VYFQ Expand There is no such thing as "actual" colour. Colour is the meaning we give to wavelengths of light. Similarly there is no "sound" in the absence of an observer. You would have us believe that someone who enjoys a certain system more than another is somehow "wrong" to do so, if the mathematics don't confirm it.
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 4:45 AM, acg said: A potential mitigating circumstance is that the dac and stock cord were reasonably new at that time and the mechanical IEC connection was probably still in very good condition in both. Sometimes I wonder if "improvements" due to change of power cords is due to simply swapping out a tarnished/worn connector for a good one. Expand I doubt it, in general. Some of my electronics (amps, sources, DACs) will run for multiple seconds without their power cord connected. I can't hear a difference if the cord is attached and detected while I am listening.
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 5:53 AM, m_james said: You would have us believe that someone who enjoys a certain system more than another is somehow "wrong" to do so Expand That is not at all the impression I wanted to give. I'm surprised that's what you got. The impression I wanted to give, is that if you are looking for a reliable way to improve the sound of your system, then experts in the field (of hearing, not stereos) warn us to be careful relying on what we hear. If someone is happy enjoying the sound of whatever playback system, and isn't looking for any advice on how to improve it ..... then they're not "wrong" to listen to whatever they like. 1
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 5:53 AM, m_james said: You would have us believe that .... Expand We don't need to be so divisive about this....
Peter Sherriff Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 5:53 AM, m_james said: There is no such thing as "actual" colour. Colour is the meaning we give to wavelengths of light. Expand But we can all agree that being red makes things accelerate faster and reach higher top speeds which would mean red cables have lower latency and higher bandwidth which is a good thing. 1
rocky500 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) I think On 13/02/2017 at 5:46 AM, davewantsmoore said: There are a lot of things which affect how we subjectively perceive sound (as with all our other senses). It is common place to hear differences between things which are identical, or not hear differences between things which are audibly different, due to the complex way in which we perceive sound (in short - what we "hear" is not the sound, but the meaning our brain has attached to the sound event). The same version of this exists for our other senses. For example the rubix cube optical illusion. You don't perceive the actual colour.... you perceive the colour your brain assigns - using it's preconceptions and expectations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HoyVi6VYFQ Expand I have highlighted what I think is very interesting. If some prefers the look or paying more for a cable or component etc, and when they listen to it and think it sounds a lot better, than it is to them. And it can be real for you. Just by your mind being in a better mode, more excited, whatever because of the more expensive/better looking or .... device could be enough to make it so. I think blind tests are pretty useless on me as it seems to put my mind in a different mode of analyzing instead of enjoyment. Never seems to work here at home no matter how many times I try, so have given up on them. Much better for me to sit back and listen over long time frames as my mind seems to be in a different mode. Just like placebos have been shown to sometimes work when you really think they are the real thing. Edited February 13, 2017 by rocky500
Guest m_james Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) On 13/02/2017 at 6:15 AM, rocky500 said: I think I have highlighted what I think is very interesting. If some prefers the look or paying more for a cable or component etc, and when they listen to it and think it sounds a lot better, than it is to them. And it can be real for you. Just by your mind being in a better mode, more excited, whatever because of the more expensive/better looking or etc device could be enough to make it so. I think blind tests are pretty useless on me as it seems to put my mind in a different mode of analyzing instead of enjoyment. Never seems to work here at home no matter how many times I try, so have given up on them. Much better for me to sit back and listen over long time frames. Just like placebos have been shown to sometimes work when you really think they are the real thing. Expand It's a nice idea in theory. But the most expensive cable I have bought didn't make the slightest difference, yet many cheaper ones did. How would you explain that? Edit: Actually, you could test this. Dress up different cables randomly - expensive ones in cheap casing, cheap ones in pricey casing and so on. Then get someone to test them and rank them. If they order them by the casing, then you can go ahead and confirm the theory. Edited February 13, 2017 by m_james
steve u Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:19 AM, m_james said: It's a nice idea in theory. But the most expensive cable I have bought didn't make the slightest difference, yet many cheaper ones did. How would you explain that? Expand You weren't ready for that cable.
acg Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 5:56 AM, davewantsmoore said: I doubt it, in general. Some of my electronics (amps, sources, DACs) will run for multiple seconds without their power cord connected. I can't hear a difference if the cord is attached and detected while I am listening. Expand I was playing today with the valve amp I am building and decided to see what it sounded like after the amp was turned off but the source was still playing. The caps take 5 minutes or more to discharge with audio still playing but with the bleeder resistors installed to drain the caps quickly (about 30 second) at shutdown the sound definitely deteriorates probably because the three power supplies discharge at different rates and I am burning several joules of energy quite quickly. I would not rely on the turnoff sound to make inferences about power cables...there is plenty more happening when the caps are draining.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:15 AM, rocky500 said: I think I have highlighted what I think is very interesting. If some prefers the look or paying more for a cable or component etc, and when they listen to it and think it sounds a lot better, than it is to them. And it can be real for you. Just by your mind being in a better mode, more excited, whatever because of the more expensive/better looking or etc device could be enough to make it so. I think blind tests are pretty useless on me as it seems to put my mind in a different mode of analyzing instead of enjoyment. Never seems to work here at home no matter how many times I try, so have given up on them. Much better for me to sit back and listen over long time frames. Just like placebos have been shown to sometimes work when you really think they are the real thing. Expand The very best blind tests are performed when you don't know if there is even a test. One of my clients has allowed me to swap out whatever parts of his system I want, whenever I want and preferably when he is not around. I've made the obvious changes (amps, CD transports, DACs, preamps, etc) and I've also changed his speaker cables, interconnect cables and power cables. None of the cables are visible to him, as his system is deeply embedded in the furniture. EVERY SINGLE interconnect change and EVERY SINGLE speaker cable change has been identified by my client. Despite not knowing if I had even visited his home. I've also swapped his power cables for something more exotic than bog-standard ones. He never heard a difference. And, before anyone makes the obvious comment: I am in awe of his hearing acuity. His reference is live jazz music. 2
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:15 AM, rocky500 said: I think blind tests are pretty useless on me as it seems to put my mind .... Expand Then the test should be adjusted. I found very interesting / surprising results when I set up long running tests on myself, when I didn't really know what, or when, was being assessed. (by writing a program which ran on my music server/source)
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:21 AM, acg said: I would not rely on the turnoff sound to make inferences about power cables...there is plenty more happening when the caps are draining. Expand Not sure if you misunderstood. I said I CAN'T hear a difference (when the power cable is plugged / unplugged)
davewantsmoore Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:22 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: The very best blind tests are performed when you don't know if there is even a test. Expand Yes. Blind testing seeks to remove as much knowledge about the test as is possible/practical from the test participant. Double blind testing seeks to eliminate the same from the people conducting the test (lest, they give something about the test away). Ideally, not only would you not know which power cables are being tested, but you would also not know that the test topic is power cables at all. (That's how I did the test for plugging and unplugging the power cords - at one time)
steve u Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 On 13/02/2017 at 6:22 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: The very best blind tests are performed when you don't know if there is even a test. One of my clients has allowed me to swap out whatever parts of his system I want, whenever I want and preferably when he is not around. I've made the obvious changes (amps, CD transports, DACs, preamps, etc) and I've also changed his speaker cables, interconnect cables and power cables. None of the cables are visible to him, as his system is deeply embedded in the furniture. EVERY SINGLE interconnect change and EVERY SINGLE speaker cable change has been identified by my client. Despite not knowing if I had even visited his home. I've also swapped his power cables for something more exotic than bog-standard ones. He never heard a difference. And, before anyone makes the obvious comment: I am in awe of his hearing acuity. His reference is live jazz music. Expand I'm a locksmith so I can probably help in these sort of trials. 2
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