DOES YOUR POWER CORD COMPLY?

[parrasaw]

2 hours ago, sdotmouse said:

Time to dismount?

Sorry to disagree, but I for one am glad that Mick is not letting this go.

 

3 hours ago, 075Congo said:

At the moment we have 10 Chinese-made AU/NZ power plugs being sold on SNA. Looking at the photos of the plugs there is no insulation present on either +ve or -ve blade of the connector. Non-compliant to Australian standards ? Risky to use ? As well there are 5 power cords with US plugs fitted listed actively for sale in the Classifieds. Nothing can be done re that I suppose but after 10 pages of "debate".......... ?

Thank you Mick ( @075Congo) for pursuing this issue.

 

I have no issue with anyone purchasing whatever they like (for their own use) from overseas, but I do have an issue with audio power-cords which are not made in Australia/which are not compliant with Australian Electrical Safety laws and which have not been through the procedures which need to be followed for electrical appliances to be compliant in this country, later being on-sold to others.

If such items were to be sold at a second hand dealers, or at a church "fair", a test and tag would be required.

Not so for sales by private individuals.

 

So, I am going to put this out there:

1. For electrical power cords which are to be advertised on StereoNET, @Marc, could such items (if they have been constructed in Australia by a licensed person, and are more than a year or two old) be required to have a current "Test and Tag" attached to them?

 

2. For electrical power cords which have been constructed overseas, and which have not been tested to the appropriate Australian/NZ Standard etc - I question whether these should be accepted for sale on StereoNET at all, and if they are to be accepted, then provision of a proper Test and Tag by an approved tester should be the bare minimum required for acceptance of the advertisement. 

 

The potential dangers of audio power cords made by unlicensed people, will be well known to any regular SN members.

 

It is likely that my thoughts may not be universally popular, but if they lead to the avoidance of even one incident/accident involving an unsafe/unapproved power-cord,  then  ...............................

 

 

[Andythiing]

It’s not rocket science - should be common sense that this forum does not allow illegal and potentially dangerous power chords to be sold - those that want to sell/purchase such items can find other avenues 

[rantan]

34 minutes ago, parrasaw said:

So, I am going to put this out there:

1. For electrical power cords which are to be advertised on StereoNET, @Marc, could such items (if they have been constructed in Australia by a licensed person, and are more than a year or two old) be required to have a current "Test and Tag" attached to them?

 

2. For electrical power cords which have been constructed overseas, and which have not been tested to the appropriate Australian/NZ Standard etc - I question whether these should be accepted for sale on StereoNET at all, and if they are to be accepted, then provision of a proper Test and Tag by an approved tester should be the bare minimum required for acceptance of the advertisement.

 

I agree emphatically and I have long thought non compliant and USA power cables should be completely banned to list for sale on SNA.

 

Throw as many grenades as you want, I won't care, but what I DO CARE ABOUT is the safety of people using these cables for some unsubstantiated and nebulous claims of sonic superiority.

 

PS  don't forget to tell your insurance company that you use non compliant power cables. You will definitely live in interesting times.

[Guest]

I don't have the time to delve into this right now - I'm taking a long break after a busy year.

With that said, when I do revisit I think there is scope for improvement here - but only to a degree.

 

I think at a minimum the Electrical Disclaimer (shown below in its current form) might need to be included on all power cables, but perhaps slightly reworded to accomodate that category better too. 

 

Quote

ELECTRICAL DISCLAIMER
This product has not been manufactured by a qualified individual or company, therefore contains electrical circuits that do not necessarily comply with Australian Standards. I understand that as the seller, I may be liable to repercussions in the event of equipment failure. By advertising and selling this product, as the seller I also agree that I am solely liable, and the publisher of this website takes no responsibility for any injury or death resulting from, whether directly or indirectly, any accident that may happen as a result of the failure of the product being sold. If in doubt, seek the services of a qualified electrician to inspect the product to ensure it is safe for use.

 

Please note I will not be revisting this topic or thread for at least a few days. I need a break from "work" like everyone does. 

[075Congo]

End of January 2024 and the song remains the same......currently 6 US Plug/power cords actively for sale in the SNA Classifieds plus a double US Power Plug outlet. We are now into 11 pages on this topic so very few people are reading this topic. Interesting that Russ Andrews in the UK has stopped producing his range of powercords with AU/NZ power plugs.........I believe he had a serious look at the issue of certification and decided to give it a miss.

Just looked at The Cable Company for power cords....they only offer one brand with AU/NZ plugs......which is great for local distributors......the AU/NZ plugs used by that one brand (SR) are absolute crap........I should know I bought some and they cracked in spectacular fashion.

Edited January 27, 2024 by 075Congo

[parrasaw]

11 minutes ago, 075Congo said:

End of January 2024 and the song remains the same......currently 6 US Plug/power cords actively for sale in the SNA Classifieds plus a double US Power Plug outlet.

Hello @Marc

Could you please give members an update about your last post (dated December 23) about this  matter?

Thank you.

 

[Guest]

Only just back to work and still playing catch up, but this requires further expert involvement, rather than anything than I can come up with, word wise. It's a legal disclaimer and as such needs thorough examination and careful wording going forward by professionals. It won't happen in days though.

 

The reality is, by driving the sales of these away from SN, they're just going to end up on Marketplace and Gumtree, where potential buyers are probably even less aware of the risks than StereoNET members. Something to consider.

[075Congo]

A few months ago I assembled 2 x 2m Furutech power cables with Furutech Connectors. As I understand it they are not "certifiable" unless I submit them for inspection.I have no concerns re using them in my audio system so thats OK.

When I look at the trade in US Plugs etc within Australia both secondhand and also in the Retail outlets........well it is ridiculous.

Been going on for so long it is almost normal! Eventually there will be a "tipping point"but I am not confident at all.

Cheers

[075Congo]

Speaking with an audiophile recently........his system is incredibly expensive and includes power components from Europe. My point is with his wealth he can buy and be supplied with whatever power componentry he desires.Trying to regulate how he spends his money on power products is laudable but it will not work.

That is the bottom line here.........SNA could introduce regulation........but for these clients there is no effect. They will buy and sell on another site.How will manufacturers react to such regulation.....if its not a Federal Govt regulation.....well.

Wondering what the legal fraternity would say? Drafting this type of regulation would be very expensive and would be rather pointless if other organizations did not accept it.

As Marc says its an incredibly complex problem and finding solutions has always been tricky.

I have my own developed beliefs to the power compliance problem.......fine......but there are a lot of fish in this pond!

[Andythiing]

It’s not complex - it’s simply the law - corporations like SNA should respect the law - it’s not a free for all - if it’s illegal then in my view it has no place being sold on this forum - excuses about being driven underground are ridiculous- just ban them from sale here like every other bricks and mortar store should be doing - SNA should hold itself to the same standards other members of the industry are required to do - then we have less chance of more cable-gate debacles 

[Guest]

Don't hold back Andythiing.

 

Instead of making out like StereoNET is the "bad guy" here, I'd appreciate if you would acknowledge all we have done and what we have said historically about power cables too. It was US who raised this to the industry and caused retailers to send back their power cables to the distributor, and eventually caused said distributor to stop selling the brand in Australia only some years ago (Synergistic Research). Or the fact that when we get press releases from brands on power components that we push back and ask if they have been complied for Australia before we write it up and promote them. Or the policy we have in place now regarding sponsors selling power cables, and the work we went through with @parrasaw regarding some power cables from a QLD-based member that is no longer with us.

 

It was me who started this thread, and my decision to continue to keep it "pinned".

 

Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, or anyone else about my business (the corporation as you referred to it), but I have had two (paid) conversations with solicitors already on this matter. I can assure you it IS complex. But to infer we are doing something wrong, is disappointing.

 

Despite that, I will continue looking into the matter. If your and @parrasaw's approach is simply to apply pressure on me, that simply won't work. If anything is done or changed, it will be done the right way and through the right processes and with consideration to all aspects of the matter.

[aussievintage]

49 minutes ago, Andythiing said:

it’s simply the law

 

While this is true, there are better reasons to not allow non-compliance.  Not sure, "moral" is the right word, but doing the right thing always makes me feel good, so that's why I would insist on it.

 

11 minutes ago, Marc said:

but I have had two (paid) conversations with solicitors already on this matter. I can assure you it IS complex.

 

I'll bet it is, in that arena.  Is there a legal downside to refusing non-complying items?

 

12 minutes ago, Marc said:

If anything is done or changed, it will be done the right way and through the right processes.

 

Always good policy.  

[075Congo]

Here is a story to describe how things can work re Power Cord Compliance.I am not entitled to use the names of the players but this is a true story as I tell it.

A very large UK Power Cord manufacturer/ retailer group developed a AUS/NZ power cord design ans advertised it in all its publications. I sent a copy of the promo to the Australian importer of the cabling concerned and of my reservations to the design.He thought the design was "horrific" He in turn contacted the parent cable company in the USA and objected to the design. End result........design stopped. The local importer does not sell power cords in Australia. Moral to the story is that the audio industry can regulate itself.The audio industry can respond in micro and macro ways to stop this type of lunacy happening.

[Andythiing]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Don't hold back Andythiing.

 

Instead of making out like StereoNET is the "bad guy" here, I'd appreciate if you would acknowledge all we have done and what we have said historically about power cables too. It was US who raised this to the industry and caused retailers to send back their power cables to the distributor, and eventually caused said distributor to stop selling the brand in Australia only some years ago (Synergistic Research). Or the fact that when we get press releases from brands on power components that we push back and ask if they have been complied for Australia before we write it up and promote them. Or the policy we have in place now regarding sponsors selling power cables, and the work we went through with @parrasaw regarding some power cables from a QLD-based member that is no longer with us.

 

It was me who started this thread, and my decision to continue to keep it "pinned".

 

Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, or anyone else about my business (the corporation as you referred to it), but I have had two (paid) conversations with solicitors already on this matter. I can assure you it IS complex. But to infer we are doing something wrong, is disappointing.

 

Despite that, I will continue looking into the matter. If your and @parrasaw's approach is simply to apply pressure on me, that simply won't work. If anything is done or changed, it will be done the right way and through the right processes and with consideration to all aspects of the matter.

Marc firstly my apologies if you thought my comments above were primarily directed at you or SNA (legal entity?) / I was mainly focused on those that continue to advertise or support the advertisement of these cables - I did perhaps go a little far in my reference to “cable gate” but I think that showed you and many others on here what can go wrong if basic business principles are not applied to the “community forum” as much for your protection and that of SNA and its members/participants - we have differed previously business practice but I think I in general respect you have your company and should run it as you see fit - hopefully you accept the input from members us about the betterment of this industry/hobby and not just some attack 

[parrasaw]

Seriously @Marc?

On 16/02/2024 at 10:26 AM, Marc said:

Instead of making out like StereoNET is the "bad guy" here, I'd appreciate if you would acknowledge all we have done and what we have said historically about power cables too

Your commencing this thread is known and acknowledged by all SN members.

In fact, I was reading your first post about the matter (from March 14  2017,  some 3 years before I even became a member), when you posted (above).

Your original post from 2017 is straight forward, factual. and informative

On 16/02/2024 at 10:26 AM, Marc said:

Despite that, I will continue looking into the matter. If your and @parrasaw's approach is simply to apply pressure on me, that simply won't work.

 

Once again - seriously? 

My sole contribution to this 11 page long thread is as follows:

(a) Two posts, the first of which was on December 23, 2023, which can be found at the top of this page (page 11).

I hope that I made my position clear enough.

I believe that what I posted was hardly extreme or particularly controversial.

In that post, I asked a specific question, and I also raised a question about the sale of electrical power cords which hadn't been approved for the Australian market, being sold second hand at all on SN, and that if such were to happen on SN,  I suggested that a proper Test and Tag might be required to accompany the sale of the product.

(b) More than a month later, on 27 January, I posted a brief question (also available above).

I waited that amount of time out of respect for what you posted on 23 December, the Xmas/New Year break etc etc.

(c) Also between May 30 last year, and January 27 this year I gave a thumbs up to 8 posts from other people on this thread, and a couple of hours ago I gave a thumbs up to @Andythiing 's earlier post (my one and only "interaction" on the thread since 27 January).

 

Frankly, I believe that I have been respectful of you, @Marc, both as a private person who has a life outside of SN, and also in your "public capacity" as the operator of SN, and that is why, since 27 January, until right now, I have not posted again about this matter - I assumed that you had done as you had stated, and contacted your legal people. I assumed that it would take time to get the answers from them, and then when that process was completed, you would post again on this thread, and that is the main reason why I have not posted anything again since my brief 27 January question (see above).

For those same reasons, had you not posted above, or had you contacted me by PM, I would not be posting here right now.

 

I have just read @Andythiing's respectful reply to you.

 

He is well and truly capable of speaking for himself, so I will speak only for myself.

 

I will not be posting on SN again about this matter prior to you relaying the answers from your legal people. My opinion about the issue is simple, and I believe that it was stated clearly enough previously that I do not need to add anything further.

 

Following a conversation which I had with someone who is eminently qualified and knowledgeable about the issues which are involved, I had no intention about posting again about this matter. Instead I felt that  you @Marc  should have the time which you needed to get your advice and get back to us after that.

 

I don't appreciate being told by you, @Marc, or anyone else, that you (or anyone else) think my "approach is simply to add pressure on me", when for the reasons stated above, and because I have no personal skin in the game, I was not going to post on this thread again, until the matter fully runs it's course according to your timetable (and at that point I was hoping to be able to post a fully positive, supportive comment, if I commented at all).

 

Had you not posted earlier, where you decided to add my name into your reply to another member, I wouldn't be posting here now, and I wouldn't have been posting again about you, your thoughts, or anyone else's thoughts until such time as you had posted your advice from your solicitor.

 

  

Edited February 17, 2024 by parrasaw

[075Congo]

Just spotted an interesting US Power Cord sale in the Classifieds. The US Power Cord looked very well made but it was the AUS to US power adaptor which caught my attention. The adaptor shown had 2 points of interest 1) the blades on the AUS section had no insulation fitted and 2)these adaptors rarely have an earth blade so the earth shielding on the US Power Cord would be disabled.

A good price......pity to see it ruined by a cheap travel power adaptor.

[075Congo]

Over the weekend I have made a date with a local Electrician (my son's Best Man) and I'll get him to run his eyes over my DIY Furutech power cables. I'll ask 1) can any electrician do the "Certification" thing on my cables or 2) what else has to happen and 3)general cost per power cord.Could be interesting.....worth a six-pack I reckon.

[Guest]

"Running an eye over something" is not any form of legal protection - qualified or not, if you did the work.

 

https://www.testandtagtraining.com.au/do-you-need-to-be-electrician-to-test-and-tag

 

At the hifi show I organise each year, being a public event, to be compliant with Australian Electrical Safety Standards each and every single cable that is connected to (Mains) power within our show must be tagged. This was a massive hiccup at our first event in 2016, and being "green" in the event industry I just did not know. We were inspected by Worksafe Victoria, and given a slap on the wrist. 

 

Since 2017, we now setup a T&T Station on 'bump in day' at our own cost for 3 qualified personnel and the appropriate machines to offer free test and tagging for our exhibitors for the afternoon. They typically test around 150-200 cables each year at our show. We still get random inspections and pass with flying colours now. Well, until that time an exhibitor decided to run a valve amps with the covers off and encourage everyone to go over and view the amplifier in full swing, glowing and nicely ready to electrocute someone!

[andyr]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

Well, until that time an exhibitor decided to run a valve amp with the covers off and encourage everyone to go over and view the amplifier in full swing, glowing and nicely ready to electrocute someone!

 

C'mon. Marc - I thought that was all part of the "joy" of owning a valve amp!!??  

 

[will robinson]

Hi Marc, can you provide any more information on the cable testing, eg how and what they test and did any cables fail (no need to name names).

 

Thanks, will

[Guest]

I always check in with them on my way past the booth and in 6 years there's only been a very rare few that fail - it's always reverse polarity. I will say that most of those have been frankenstein type cables (as I ask), but I do know there was one instance of a well known audiophile brand it happened to. I genuinely don't recall the brand now anyway.

 

I don't get involved in the testing at all, but do know they just plug it into a machine and if it passes that spits out a sticker that they put on the cable. I'm usually running around doing a million things while that takes place so apologies, I've never taken much more interest in the process.

[075Congo]

Just looking at an Australia-wide group "Electrical Test and Tag Compliance Services" and a few questions I need to follow up on are:

     : how much would they charge to "test and tag" my DIY Power cords ?

     : how long does my compliance last......I am reading that it will comply for 2 years only ?

I recall seeing Compliance Testers working in my High School.......they tested everything....power outlets, power cords......anything. They went through every room in the school....everywhere.They repeated the entire process every few years so it would be a recurrent expense for each individual school.

Keep you posted.

[Guest]

There are many businesses (large and small) built purely around T&T. It's very affordable to buy into (gear and training) and as you have discovered, all council and government buildings, along with workplaces must have all equipment T&T'd. And yes, it's 2 years.

 

I think the going price for a one off is around $60 per cable. 

If a business was to come in and T&T all your equipment on a 2-year service plan, obviously it would be subtantially cheaper.

You should be able to find someone that does T&T in your local(ish) area.

[075Congo]

Just thinking then how this applies to Commercial Audio outlets. Probably a regular must do event maybe connected to Insurance requirement. Be interesting to gain input from our Commercial Sponsors ?

[aussievintage]

Guys this stuff is nothing new.  It's been mandatory and happening for many decades in industrial and manufacturing situations, practically everywhere where safety of a workforce is a concern in Australia.

Edited February 23, 2024 by aussievintage