DOES YOUR POWER CORD COMPLY?

[Hytram]

1 hour ago, Gee Emm said:

Quote

Lots of things that are not certified or are illegal in Australia are of a far higher and safer standard than the approved product,

 

This is not my experience.

 

or you could quote whole of my sentence, instead of cutting it in half to suit your point

 

"Lots of things that are not certified or are illegal in Australia are of a far higher and safer standard than the approved product, but some are dangerous and inferior.. "

 

lots of European and America products are of amazing high standard but not approved for use in Australia

 

Quote

Quote

Does anyone know the regulations or what Australian Standard are for a C19 to 10A 3 pin lead? 

 

 

C19 is 15A. Everything in chain has to rated at 15A or higher. Both Plug & socket have to be same current rating.

 

then please explain why theses are being sold

 

https://www.radioparts.com.au/product/27752618/-?CAWELAID=120007580000007278&CATARGETID=120007580000186846&CADevice=m&gclid=CjwKCAjwvZv0BRA8EiwAD9T2VSWYgAuAvmfdbcBLEdtKl14yhZfTeoFgG05WM61rTpWYXg2a9MHXBRoCx7cQAvD_BwE#.Xob3t2k7adM

 

https://www.myithub.com.au/mf-3pc19-02-10a-alogic-2m-10amp-aus-3-pin-mains-plug-to-iec-c19-male-to-female/?gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTfEZ9jYBpAq9JcX481piDt7TlCL3gtUVr1oWB4mYcjV30N6StXD41hoCN2gQAvD_BwE

 

https://cplonline.com.au/alogic-mf-3pc19-02-10a-2m-10amp-aus-3-pin-mains-plus-go-iec-c19-male-to-female.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTf4SxL_kXAoXIPo_j0eRkFqgjAlHCBD-XKQUJIjemwxuAdTYjeLqhxoCXJcQAvD_BwE

 

https://www.fs.com/au/products/36027.html?currency=AUD&paid=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTTIIQbgyLIERoT2rqygRL2BiLC4eK0cvngJ6IORSgJv3CdpI3NirPhoCS5cQAvD_BwE

 

and being used in Data Centres all over Australia?

 

and in some cases know and approved by Licensed Electrical Inspectors in Victoria 

 

there is a loophole in the regs somewhere, I am keen to find it.



you actually haven't answered anything I asked

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Hytram

[Hytram]

Ok, I am a little like a dog with a bone sometimes..

 

Disclaimer, I am liecened but non practicing A Grade Electrician, but still working in an associated industry ( I could still blow my head off if I screw up)

so my knowledge of the current AC regs are not as good as they could be

 

But to the best of my knowledge, a 10A Plug on the other end of a C19 lead is illegal

 

while trying to build Raspberry Pi DNLA server, I have been doing a little research

 

using the Radio Parts 10A 3 pin Plug to C19 (15A) lead as an example 

 

its states 

IEC-C19 10 Amp Power Cord Fitted with a female IEC-C19 connector and an Australian 10 Amp 3-pin mains plug with insulated pins compliant with AS/NZS3112.

as far as I can tell AS/NZS3112. is the standard for plugs , outlets and sockets, not manufactured leads,,

 

Approval numbers: Q050981(ES0120718), Q11027, Q080451(ES0130530)

I can find any reference to the Q numbers, the Q might stand for QLD

the ES numbers are misquoted, its Echo Sierra Oscar, not Echo Sierra #Zero as typed on their web site and all their resellers

the ESO number is from ERAC, the Electrical Regulatory Authorities Council; an organisation formed to coordinate the activities of Australian and New Zealand electrical regulators.
 

in the download tab of the leads webpage brings up the Certificate of Approval for 3 items

https://www.radioparts.com.au/Files/fb/K19-2MB10A_27752618.pdf

 

ESO150144 Moulded Appliance Connector [C19 type] 16A

ESO130530 Flexible cord

ESO150152 Non-Rewirable 3-Pin Plug in 6 versions in 3A, 7.5A, 10A

 

but no approval for the whole lead.

 

ESO120718 which is it stated on the Leads page but not in the PDF and using the ERAC searchable database, 

https://equipment.erac.gov.au/Public/Profiles.aspx?ApplicationID=0c95a6b7-b9ef-41b5-a4ac-4be19b76913e

brings up

XR-352 Xiongrun Moulded to cords H05VV-F 3x1.5/2.5mm² (Q080451), H05RR-F 3X1.5mm² and H07RN-F 3X1.5mm² (SAA-162681-EA).

 

websearch on XR-352 Xiongrun bring up

 

 

 

and that is a 15A (actually looks a little more like a 20A) plug


so to the best of my knowledge, this lead is made up of 3 Australian approved parts and none of them are the XR-352

 

but, as a whole, I can not find any evidence of the lead being approved for use in Australia.

 

 

these leads are used in controlled environments here in Australia, controlled as in Data Centres where the power is managed and the equipment does not draw over 10A

I have been told by a contracted Electrician that works at one of the DCs that although these are illegal as to AS3000, they get away with using them by the Electrical Inspector because they are used only in a controlled environment and are protected from going over 10A.  The Same with not using RCDs (Safety Switches) on circuits that require them, as any nuisance tripping would be detrimental, e.g causing outages on essential equipment


and NO, and audiophile's listening room is NOT considered a controlled environment

 

 

 

where am I going with all this...   I don't really know

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Hytram

[Gee Emm]

22 hours ago, Hytram said:

or you could quote whole of my sentence, instead of cutting it in half to suit your point

I didn't have issue with the rest of your sentence.

22 hours ago, Hytram said:

then please explain why theses are being sold

I can't do that

 

19 hours ago, Hytram said:

as far as I can tell AS/NZS3112. is the standard for plugs , outlets and sockets, not manufactured leads

Correct

 

19 hours ago, Hytram said:

I can find any reference to the Q numbers, the Q might stand for QLD

You are correct, the Q=Qld

 

19 hours ago, Hytram said:

and that is a 15A (actually looks a little more like a 20A) plug

I would consider the image is of a 15A plug

 

19 hours ago, Hytram said:

I have been told by a contracted Electrician that works at one of the DCs that although these are illegal as to AS3000, they get away with using them by the Electrical Inspector because they are used only in a controlled environment and are protected from going over 10A.  The Same with not using RCDs (Safety Switches) on circuits that require them, as any nuisance tripping would be detrimental, e.g causing outages on essential equipment

I have heard this said before. Unless a 'Controlled Environment' is defined in AS/NZS 3000, I don't how they sit.

At a guess, I think someone MAY be deploying a risk management strategy. Validity unknown. I can't validate any of my speculation here.

 

Any manufactured lead has to comply with AS/NZS 3199:2020

 

The plug and socket are also scheduled items, as per have to comply 4417.2 (appendix B  ). I am not 100% sure of currency of the part or appendix.

2009 edition clauses B2.10 Cord extension socket, B2.34 Outlet device

 

AS/NZS 3000 is always the leading standard. If anything is muddy in subordinate standards, refer to AS/NZS 3000.

 

19 hours ago, Hytram said:

where am I going with all this...   I don't really know

My understanding used to be that you could query/notify ERAC about any products of concern in the marketplace.

 

 

[audiofeline]

On 02/04/2020 at 11:54 PM, Aperalim said:

Hi Marc,

Do you know what it is about US AC plugs being used in Australia that could possibly cause a fire?

 

Surely it cannot be due to inappropriate current/voltage ratings because the IEC plugs on the other end of any such cable are the same that are commonly used on most power cables made anywhere in the world and rated for use in both the USA (15A/110V) as well as  Australia (10A/250V)?

 

This seeming inconsistency in universal application between AC and IEC plugs has always baffled me.

 

I completely understand the legalities of compliance but wish to understand the technical aspects of what is objectionable about using US plugs in Australia.

 

Cheers

Chris

I would think the difference is obvious.

 

- IEC plugs are accepted in many countries electrical standards that operate on 110V and 250V, so they are manufactured to cope with the higher voltages for the global market.  If it's safe for a higher voltage then it should be safe for a lower voltage.

 

- USA AC plugs are made to run on the US 110V electrical system, so are tested and certified for that use.  They are not intended for use on 250V electrical systems in other countries, because those countries use other plug designs.  So there is no need to certify them for anything other than 110V use.  This is not to say that they might be able to cope with the higher voltages, but there is no need for them to certified as such.  I would be conservative in my use of US plugs.  I would be confident plugging them into a 240to110V transformer, as I'm not subjecting them to voltages higher than they were designed and certified for.  But I wouldn't connect them to a 240V supply. 

 

(Disclaimer, I'm not an electrician)

[audiofeline]

On 02/04/2020 at 9:42 PM, Decky said:

A hypothetical question:

If we are faced with a situation where we have only one respirator available that has US mains cable and it was not certified for AUS/NZ (although capable of working on 240V). What would you guys do - use it regardless and try to safe someones life or wait for the next available electrical safety technician to certify it first? 

I'll answer this with a comparison.  I've dropped audio equipment to repairers who have been authorised service agents for audio importers.  And I've seen them replacing the overseas (non-complaint) power plugs with Australian plugs so the equipment can be sold for use in Australia. 

 

So I would expect that the Hospital would have changed the US cable for an Australian one before they plug it in to save my life. 

[Lochawe]

5 hours ago, audiofeline said:

I would think the difference is obvious.

 

- IEC plugs are accepted in many countries electrical standards that operate on 110V and 250V, so they are manufactured to cope with the higher voltages for the global market.  If it's safe for a higher voltage then it should be safe for a lower voltage.

 

- USA AC plugs are made to run on the US 110V electrical system, so are tested and certified for that use.  They are not intended for use on 250V electrical systems in other countries, because those countries use other plug designs.  So there is no need to certify them for anything other than 110V use.  This is not to say that they might be able to cope with the higher voltages, but there is no need for them to certified as such.  I would be conservative in my use of US plugs.  I would be confident plugging them into a 240to110V transformer, as I'm not subjecting them to voltages higher than they were designed and certified for.  But I wouldn't connect them to a 240V supply. 

 

(Disclaimer, I'm not an electrician)

Thanks.

What about the relationship between current rating and voltage rating in terms of their relative impact on compatibility of the voltage ratings??

[audiofeline]

1 hour ago, Aperalim said:

Thanks.

What about the relationship between current rating and voltage rating in terms of their relative impact on compatibility of the voltage ratings??

Sorry, that's beyond my knowledge so I'll leave it for someone with more expertise than me to answer.

[Lochawe]

OK thanks – it is just intriguing that there is always emphasis about how incompatible  110/115V AC plugs/sockets are to use in a 230/240V environment yet the current capacity is barely ever mentioned although is significantly different also but inverted to voltage incompatibility with 15A capacity in US versus only 10A capacity in Australia?

Cheers

[Hytram]

14 minutes ago, Aperalim said:

OK thanks – it is just intriguing that there is always emphasis about how incompatible  110/115V AC plugs/sockets are to use in a 230/240V environment yet the current capacity is barely ever mentioned although is significantly different also but inverted to voltage incompatibility with 15A capacity in US versus only 10A capacity in Australia?

Cheers

A 10A rated 110V lead @ 240v will be rated at 4.58A

 

So using a 10A 110V lead to carry 10A @ 240v will.. 

 

Burn your house down... 

 

[Lochawe]

2 minutes ago, Hytram said:

A 10A rated 110V lead @ 240v will be rated at 4.58A

 

So using a 10A 110V lead to carry 10A @ 240v will.. 

 

Burn your house down... 

 

Not sure if I have ever seen a 10A 110V power cable?

Lots of 15A 115V US power cables but not 10A 110V...

[Hytram]

Totally depended size of wire and type of plug.. USA leads go down to 3A

 

If you are talking C13/C14 then the USA standard is 15A but the IEC standard is 10A, so a USA 3 pin plug to C14 that is rated at 15A (let's use 120V), at 240V it's only going to good for only 7.5A and the IEC regs say a C14 must carry 10A. 7.5A might be fine for the job of powering most of your hifi gear , but what happens if someone grabs it and uses it on a 10A load? 

 

Saying that, I would say most 'audiophile' leads with a C14 would be over engineered and carry 10A @ 240v, But that would be an assumption and we are dealing with electricity here, assumptions can give you a nasty tingling feeling. 

 

Lots of info here

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320

 

Simply put, if you don't understand ohms or watts law and are not licenced it's probably better to buy an Australian certified premade lead or get your USA lead checked and plug swapped out by someone qualified. 

 

Or you just might burn your house down. 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Hytram

[scobb]

On 02/04/2020 at 5:14 PM, rockeater said:

Insurance company will try to find any reason at all to deny you a claim. If you were using non-compliant plugs or sockets, they need to look no further.

Just as if you were over the .05 limit on the road, it would not matter who/how/why the accident happened.

 

 

To come back to the original question, in general, people look at reviews for guidance more than they should and if some piece of equipment like power cable is only available for US market (because it is big) they will buy it if they think it would bring them closer to sonic Nirvana.

Reviews however are nothing more than advertorials and their use is limited to finding out about equipment features. They are worthless as far as indicator of anything to do with performance (or anything else that is subjective).
 

You're of course right that Insurance companies will do anything not to pay out and it worries me that I use UK plugs.  I did this because they fit far tighter in the socket and make Australian plugs seem flimsy and loose in comparison.  In addition each plug has it's own fuse so IMO these two factors must make UK plugs safer.  However I worry an insurance company would refuse to pay out!

[rockeater]

On 23/04/2020 at 9:47 AM, scobb said:

  I did this because they fit far tighter in the socket and make Australian plugs seem flimsy and loose in comparison.  In addition each plug has it's own fuse

From audiophile point of view this is actually disadvantageous.

It is not the cable that does magic (as some people claim). The biggest loss of signal (or transfer of energy in general) is on connections.

And extra fuse means extra 4 connections (cable to fuse-holder, fuse-holder to fuse, fuse to the other fuse-holder, and back to cable).

Electrocompaniet in their EC-4 Anniversary edition (with marble face plate) got rid of 8 fuses which were protecting positive and negative rails of 4 power supplies to improve power delivery.

[pwstereo]

Does any hi-fi equipment draw anything like enough current for those connections to be an issue though?

You can run a decent AC welder from a 10A 240V GPO, something on the order of 150A @ 50V on the output side. I can't see even a stereo power power amp getting anywhere near those sorts of values.

[scobb]

8 minutes ago, rockeater said:

From audiophile point of view this is actually disadvantageous.

It is not the cable that does magic (as some people claim). The biggest loss of signal (or transfer of energy in general) is on connections.

And extra fuse means extra 4 connections (cable to fuse-holder, fuse-holder to fuse, fuse to the other fuse-holder, and back to cable).

Electrocompaniet in their EC-4 Anniversary edition (with marble face plate) got rid of 8 fuses which were protecting positive and negative rails of 4 power supplies to improve power delivery.

 

1 minute ago, pwstereo said:

Does any hi-fi equipment draw anything like enough current for those connections to be an issue though?

You can run a decent AC welder from a 10A 240V GPO, something on the order of 150A @ 50V on the output side. I can't see even a stereo power power amp getting anywhere near those sorts of values.

I get the theory and did think about it  but they sell all the same cables over there so thought it couldn't be a big issue?  The plugs are just far more sturdy and feel (and are) safer (why I chose it), however that's redundant if I'm not insured because they are not Australian plugs (even if they are safer).

[rockeater]

9 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

You can run a decent AC welder from a 10A 240V GPO, something on the order of 150A @ 50V on the output side. I can't see even a stereo power power amp getting anywhere near those sorts of values.

Of course you are right.

But there is a whole industry selling cables and enough of us, people interested in sound to sustain it.

What I was trying to say is that it is not the cable that needs to be special but the focus should be on minimising losses on connections (and reducing a number of them).

And part of the reason why people who buy new cables can hear the new ones being better, is that in the process of removing the old ones and inserting the new ones, they have mechanically "cleaned" the connection from oxidisation.

[AccuTidal]

8 hours ago, rockeater said:

Of course you are right.

But there is a whole industry selling cables and enough of us, people interested in sound to sustain it.

What I was trying to say is that it is not the cable that needs to be special but the focus should be on minimising losses on connections (and reducing a number of them).

And part of the reason why people who buy new cables can hear the new ones being better, is that in the process of removing the old ones and inserting the new ones, they have mechanically "cleaned" the connection from oxidisation.

Does this mean quality of fuses is equally critical? I wonder too sometimes that an audiophile fuse can cost upto few hundred dollars. Being technical minded, my ears had deceived my IQ way too often!  
opss another can of worms I just open. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Chanh

[Grizaudio]

Hi there, 

 

I am currently looking for a a few compliant shielded power leads.

Does anyone know if the EGM leads are compliant. 

I cant see compliance stamps on the connectors. 

 

I have sent Joel an email:

http://www.egmaudio.com.au/product/audio-power-cable-grey-series-v2-iec-13/

 

Thanks 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by musicbee

[Guest]

1 hour ago, musicbee said:

Does anyone know if the EGM leads are compliant. 

I have sent Joel an email

That's it then. You've gone to the source. Can't get more accurate than that - there's no point asking in here really.

[Grizaudio]

It would be most helpful if a Steronet list was created, which provided an overview of the compliant Hifi power cables available in Australia.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by musicbee

[Guest]

I think that's a great idea. I'll make some enquiries.

[Flash]

On 06/04/2020 at 3:51 PM, Gee Emm said:

I didn't have issue with the rest of your sentence.

I can't do that

 

Correct

 

You are correct, the Q=Qld

 

I would consider the image is of a 15A plug

 

I have heard this said before. Unless a 'Controlled Environment' is defined in AS/NZS 3000, I don't how they sit.

At a guess, I think someone MAY be deploying a risk management strategy. Validity unknown. I can't validate any of my speculation here.

 

Any manufactured lead has to comply with AS/NZS 3199:2020

 

The plug and socket are also scheduled items, as per have to comply 4417.2 (appendix B  ). I am not 100% sure of currency of the part or appendix.

2009 edition clauses B2.10 Cord extension socket, B2.34 Outlet device

 

AS/NZS 3000 is always the leading standard. If anything is muddy in subordinate standards, refer to AS/NZS 3000.

 

My understanding used to be that you could query/notify ERAC about any products of concern in the marketplace.

 

 

That does it. I’ve been out of the trade for 20 years, but I’m going to dig out my copy of AS3000 (that’s if the silverfish haven’t eaten it) so I can join in the fun. 

[075Congo]

When I have bought Power Cords there seems to be no requirement to have some sort of sticker or code on the power cord itself. Working years ago in Queensland High Schools the school was required to have every power cord on site "certified and tested" if they failed cord was cut and in the bin. You would think if I was spending $450 on a power cord it would need a safety sticker on the cord ? If I am an importer of power cords from the USA is there any certification for these power cords.

[Gee Emm]

2 hours ago, 075Congo said:

If I am an importer of power cords from the USA is there any certification for these power cords.

https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/standards/as-nzs-3120-2011-117091_saig_as_as_267964/

AS/NZS 3120:2011

Abstract

Specifies essential safety requirements for cord extension sockets intended to be used at extra-low voltages. This Standard is to be read in conjunction with AS/NZS 3100.

 

Scope

This Standard sets out essential safety requirements for cord extension sockets and inlet plugs, as defined in Clause 1.4, intended for use at extra-low or low voltages, and inlet plugs with rated voltages not exceeding 250 V and current ratings not exceeding 20 A in accordance with the pin configurations given in AS/NZS 3112.This Standard does not apply to cord extension sockets that are enclosed within an appliance in such a way that they are not exposed to personal contact, or that are intended for use solely where they will be so enclosed.

 

[andyr]

2 hours ago, 075Congo said:

When I have bought Power Cords there seems to be no requirement to have some sort of sticker or code on the power cord itself. Working years ago in Queensland High Schools the school was required to have every power cord on site "certified and tested" if they failed cord was cut and in the bin. You would think if I was spending $450 on a power cord it would need a safety sticker on the cord ? If I am an importer of power cords from the USA is there any certification for these power cords.

 

AIUI - you take each cord along to a Certification business (like the people Beacon Lighting  go to when they import a container full of lights) - and they will certify each cord for you.  I suspect they will charge you in excess of $5K for each certification!  

 

(IOW, an acceptable charge to Beacon Lighting, for a container full of the same light ... but completely impractical for you, for a power cord!)

 

Andy