catman Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 G'day all, this is a subject of ongoing interest to me as over the years 'most' of the phono stages that I've built or used have sounded 'similar' in terms of RIAA equalisation with at least one notable exception. However what about subtle RIAA variations that are at the very least audible, without being grossly inaccurate. At times like this I'd like to have good and well calibrated test gear to back up (or otherwise), my ears own perceptions! As it stands, I'm just not sure. Listening to my new DIY Muffsy phono stage yesterday afternoon on my best lounge room system, I detected a very subtle but noticeable midrange warmth to the playback that actually sounded wonderful, yet all the documentation that I've seen indicates a very good conformance to the standard RIAA equalisation curve. My friend Rod Elliott actually maintains that absolute adherence to the RIAA curve isn't that important with channel matching being more important, so what is the truth? Any comments or thoughts? Regards, Felix.
Roumelio. Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 The RIAA standard (of which there are two actually with a later updated RIAA standard) is the standard by which one should expect a record to sound regardless. It's the "Red Book" of record standards, prior to which we had a whole bunch of separate standards, nothing was settled. Of course, whether or not you want to comply to what the standard is, is another matter altogether. Personal choice means you can listen to music however it is you think suits your ears best, but it wont be as the engineer intended it. That said the engineer might have gotten it right in his studio but that doesn't mean he got it right for your room. 1
AussieMick Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 I'd strongly recommend to visit Graham Slee's website and read what he has to say about equalising the record vs equalising the cartridge. www.hifisystemcomponents.comHis is an engineering perspective and he's been very open about his thinking. Give it a read and see what you think. Cheers,Mick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AussieMick Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/phono-preamps/accession-mm-phono-preamp.htmlThis page has lots of good reading. Thought provoking. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
Newman Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, catman said: ....I detected a very subtle but noticeable midrange warmth to the playback that actually sounded wonderful, yet all the documentation that I've seen indicates a very good conformance to the standard RIAA equalisation curve.... Why don't you measure it?
michaelw Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, AussieMick said: I'd strongly recommend to visit Graham Slee's website and read what he has to say about equalising the record vs equalising the cartridge. www.hifisystemcomponents.com His is an engineering perspective and he's been very open about his thinking. Give it a read and see what you think. Cheers, Mick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk good reading there. also take a look at whest, whose designs share a wide bandwidth approach with slee.
Roumelio. Posted August 5, 2017 Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) All phono preamps take care of cartridge capacitince loading to some extent otherwise they would sound very very bad. I'm trying to read between the lines of what is different about this preamp. This page describes capacitince loading quite well. But what the audible effects of capacitance loading are can be a little counter-intuitive. Small amounts of excess capacitance will reduce the highest frequencies that a system as a while can reproduce. Therefore as a result you may well expect a duller sound (I guess this is some of what this device hopes to achieve by removing). However, this isn't what usually happens as a whole. In a factual sense, although the very high end is reduced, there's an increase in the upper-midrange/lower-treble region ( perhaps something like 8kHz-12kHz?) which makes the system sound brighter in theory. However, the brightness of the sound is usually counter intuitive to peoples hearing, because excessive brightness will become tiring after a whee little while. On the other hand if we remove a large amount of excess capacitance the whole sound of the system will become more than a little dull. Naturally while small changes in capacitance loading should have only have a fairly subtle effects on the sound. You would need to get it wildly wrong (probably more than is possible with a normal phono stage) to make a dramatic difference as an audible effect from capacitance loading by itself so I'm not sure what else this phono amp is doing. Some further explanation would be nice. Edited August 5, 2017 by Roumelio.
aussievintage Posted August 6, 2017 Posted August 6, 2017 On 8/5/2017 at 9:31 AM, catman said: My friend Rod Elliott actually maintains that absolute adherence to the RIAA curve isn't that important with channel matching being more important, so what is the truth? Any comments or thoughts? Regards, Felix. Well, if you're in the camp, as I am, that doesn't mind using tone controls to "improve" records that don't sound to your liking, then I'd have to agree that adherence to the RIAA curve is less important than some think.
rockpig Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 6 hours ago, aussievintage said: Well, if you're in the camp, as I am, that doesn't mind using tone controls to "improve" records that don't sound to your liking, then I'd have to agree that adherence to the RIAA curve is less important than some think. Tone controls? Don't have any. Just volume, input selector, Triode or Ultra linear mode.
aussievintage Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 25 minutes ago, rockpig said: Tone controls? Don't have any. Just volume, input selector, Triode or Ultra linear mode. Not all my systems have tone controls. In fact one has just volume - nothing else at all. I was just saying I am not afraid to use them if the happen to exist just the same
Roumelio. Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Might as well just use a 10band parametric EQ if you want real tone control. I keep trying to get tone out of my current export monitors, they really don't have much to give.
aussievintage Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Roumelio. said: Might as well just use a 10band parametric EQ if you want real tone control. I keep trying to get tone out of my current export monitors, they really don't have much to give. or get as many bands as you can and draw your own eq curve on it
Roumelio. Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Just now, aussievintage said: or get as many bands as you can and draw your own eq curve on it Yep, most people wouldn't know what to do with a 30band EQ though.
audiofeline Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 My feeling is that the RIAA should be accurate. Otherwise accurate reproduction of records is no possible, it would be a coloured sound. Some may feel colouration can be good, as it may compensate for room acoustics. However, I feel that the RIAA should be accurate, so the source material is correct. Then the system should be balanced to achieve a good sound - that may be looking after the phono capacitance, interconnects, the interaction of the hardware, speakers, and room acoustics. Put some bright speakers to compensate for a dull room - fine! This is tuning the back end of the system. But don't mess with the source. And I agree with Rod Elliott, the two channels need to be in balance, if they are not that will colour the sound and affect imaging.
Roumelio. Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 5 hours ago, audiofeline said: My feeling is that the RIAA should be accurate. Otherwise accurate reproduction of records is no possible, it would be a coloured sound. Some may feel colouration can be good, as it may compensate for room acoustics. However, I feel that the RIAA should be accurate, so the source material is correct. Then the system should be balanced to achieve a good sound - that may be looking after the phono capacitance, interconnects, the interaction of the hardware, speakers, and room acoustics. Put some bright speakers to compensate for a dull room - fine! This is tuning the back end of the system. But don't mess with the source. And I agree with Rod Elliott, the two channels need to be in balance, if they are not that will colour the sound and affect imaging. My only complaint is that now I have everything flat through my Pioneer SA-400, and Rogers Export monitors as well as a Technics SL-D2 with an Ortofon OM20 cart, I'm just thinking there is nothing much to adjust. This gets me interested in looking at getting a preamp for when I do want something that is coloured. Eventually if everything is flat you don't get much of a kick in the pants and sometimes you feel like you want to hear a sub bass kick every once in a while. So now I'm searching for a complimentary preamp and some other speaker options for when I want a different sound.
audiofeline Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Roumelio. said: My only complaint is that now I have everything flat through my Pioneer SA-400, and Rogers Export monitors as well as a Technics SL-D2 with an Ortofon OM20 cart, I'm just thinking there is nothing much to adjust. This gets me interested in looking at getting a preamp for when I do want something that is coloured. Eventually if everything is flat you don't get much of a kick in the pants and sometimes you feel like you want to hear a sub bass kick every once in a while. So now I'm searching for a complimentary preamp and some other speaker options for when I want a different sound. Are you confusing RIAA accuracy with overall phono preamp quality? The RIAA system is like Dolby for cassettes - it's a recording-playback system. The eq of the record is adjusted according to the RIAA curve so that limitations of playback with a styli in a groove are reduced. On playback this eq curve is reversed by the phono amp so the tonal quality of the record is restored. When done accurately there should be no tonal difference. When done poorly, the phono amp does not accurately reverse the recorded eq, so the tonal balance is not restored. The tonal balance is different - the treble is different or the bass is different - so the sound is "coloured". This is different to the quality of the phono preamp. A poor quality phono preamp will have reduced frequency response, reduced dynamics, reduced soundstage, the channels will not match electronically, have poor quality components. A good phono preamp will have the dynamics ("kick") and soundstage to bring a realism to the record's reproduction. A good quality phono preamp can have an accurate or an inaccurate RIAA stage - that is, it can produce a realistic sound that is accurate tonally, or inaccurate tonally (for example, bright or boomy). Similarly, a poor quality phono preamp may not produce a realistic reproduction, but the RIAA reproduction curve may be accurate, or inaccurate (which will further degrade the quality of reproduction).
Roumelio. Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) I'm not confusing the RIAA accuracy. I'm saying when you start using monitors as opposed to hifi speakers on what is a fairly neutral amp to begin with then everything can begin to sound a bit flat. This has nothing to do with the quality of components rather than the type of components being used. The problem really isn't the quality of the gear (although there is much better) the problem really is more so this. This is the problem I have right now. The more I think about it the more I want to get new speakers. Flat is not always the best for home listening. Edited August 7, 2017 by Roumelio.
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