How Do You stand Digital colour?!?!

[Mojo-Man]

Twenty thousand hours is not unusual for CRT projectors in the field - do the math at half that and CRT still wins.

The key question is what happens to digital at 10,000 hours in the field?

We simply don't know - because none of gone that long. (Although you may want to read Texas Instruments torture test of LCD panels and work out for yourself if their findings are accurate concerning premature deterioration).

If it is, the Pana 700 owners may wish to read the fine print on their warranty..

[glenncol]

Twenty thousand hours is not unusual for CRT projectors in the field - do the math at half that and CRT still wins.

The key question is what happens to digital at 10,000 hours in the field?

We simply don't know - because none of gone that long. (Although you may want to read Texas Instruments torture test of LCD panels and work out for yourself if their findings are accurate concerning premature deterioration).

If it is, the Pana 700 owners may wish to read the fine print on their warranty..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No never said it was out of the question but lets look at all setups

Some will over drive the tubes , some will bump up the contrast and so on

[Mojo-Man]

Sure - but any comparison here must also take into account that the *rated* figures for lamp life are typically exaggerated.

That's why I asked in another thread for anyone surpassing the stated lamp life. So far no-one has.

But there are numerous stories (Sanyo Z3) of premature lamp failure - and anyone basing the real life of their projector on the specifications is deluding themselves.

I'd suggest anywhere from a half to 2/3 lamp life and you will see significant deterioration from new.

Bottom line: Digital is expensive to run.

Second bottom line - they can go at any time and *do*.

Why do you think Sony on its most expensive Qualia projector has to provide a stand by lamp?

Because they know what we know - it won't make a 1000 hours and given the heat of the thing it only make half that.

[glenncol]

Sure - but any comparison here must also take into account that the *rated* figures for lamp life are typically exaggerated.

That's why I asked in another thread for anyone surpassing the stated lamp life. So far no-one has.

But there are numerous stories (Sanyo Z3) of premature lamp failure - and anyone basing the real life of their projector on the specifications is deluding themselves.

I'd suggest anywhere from a half to 2/3 lamp life and you will see significant deterioration from new.

Bottom line: Digital is expensive to run.

Second bottom line - they can go at any time and *do*.

Why do you think Sony on its most expensive Qualia projector has to provide a stand by lamp?

Because they know what we know - it won't make a 1000 hours and given the heat of the thing it only make half that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mojo no one is arguing that at and to be fair Tubes can fail to and they do granted no where as near as bulbs .

People will see as Mark pointed out a tube replacement cost was $3000 and this is a hugh sum so you could see how people will be scared of that versus $800 not taking into account the life issue

[OzHTfan]

Actually, you're more than a little incorrect on how I'm getting my Qualia, for starters it doesn't involve me spending cash. Let's say it's more of a side benefit of my company being a large client of Sony's.  (Snip)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well-well - so now the truth comes out.

You are not spending the cash on the Qualia after all, having earlier said:

"I for one am forking out for a Qualia. " (OzHTFan March 7 2005)

From where I come from forking out usally involves cash changing hands. But you were never buying the Qulaia - simply 'borrowing' it, despite your statement to the contray.

Did you think I didn't notice?

One wonders if you were;

A) Confused

Deluded

C) Lying

D) Posing for effect

Unlike you OzHTFan - I don't need to posture, mislead or bluster about the products I own, use or have seen in my own HT.

One wonders why you do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For starters and for the last time, learn how to copy quotes properly mojo!

Well it previously and it still is non of your business how I'm getting it. However, I did feel compelled to get the point across of how I'm getting it when alluded to me wasting money on it. It is not borrowed either my friend, it is mine period. The state that I was 'fork out for one' was actually correct at the time smart-ass! It only came into being that I am no longer having to fund it directly in the last 2 weeks!! As I said my company is purchasing a large quantity of gear from Sony and they decided to sweeten the deal with the proj.

By all means come and see it when I have it, if think I'm some kind of forum bullshitter...

Now back to this bright suntastic day and away from BS forum arguments....check in later to see how much more bad-mojo there is....

[Mojo-Man]

You're getting a free Qualia now?

Righto.

[OzHTfan]

You're getting a free Qualia now?

Righto.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Essentially yes, but only as a side benefit of a larger dealer in place of receiving a further discount. So there is still a theoretical cost implied if you will, just not to me personally.

[ToeCutter]

Troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*sigh*

[djOS]

You are right Santa lets look a scenario

Some Digi PJ's have a cost of $800 to replace the bulb after say 3000 hours so over 15,000 hours there is $4000.

A well setup CRT will give you 15,000 and at $3000 to replace the tubes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No-one in their right mind pays the rrp of $800 for their lamps, anyone with half an ounce of noodle will find their replacement globe at almost 1/2 the rrp. I'd like to see someone manage to pay less than rrp for their replacement CRT Tubes!

Im not denying the "ultimately" superiour image of the CRT's but what about the almost yearly convergance calibration thats also required to maintain this wonderful image? I've heard this can cost $1k+ in itself?

[Paranoid666au]

Arguing the obvious one must be a fool. But to cause other people to argue the obvious is the art of a troll.

The fool or the fool who follows it?

[ChrisM]

That is why and Directors and cinematographers use reality as a reference point for colour balance - they know the limitations of the cinema (both sonically and visually), and exceed it by filming with reality as their ultimate goal and refer to 'life-like images' - or if you prefer, a 'window on reality'.

I wasn't going to get into this but... This statement just isn't true.

The colour balance reference is the film stock. Cinematographers shoot for the medium and create their own reality because "reality" is not the ultimate goal. In fact if a cinematographer was to turn in a perfect reproduction of the scene as it was presented to him, he (or she) wouldn't last long!

As for black, well I'm not saying perfect black isn't a good thing, but there's not a 35mm print around that can achieve absolute black on projection, so cinematographers work within this limitation.

[Paranoid666au]

There is that click between each frame that totally blacks the picture out between frames

[glenncol]

You are right Santa lets look a scenario

Some Digi PJ's have a cost of $800 to replace the bulb after say 3000 hours so over 15,000 hours there is $4000.

A well setup CRT will give you 15,000 and at $3000 to replace the tubes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No-one in their right mind pays the rrp of $800 for their lamps, anyone with half an ounce of noodle will find their replacement globe at almost 1/2 the rrp. I'd like to see someone manage to pay less than rrp for their replacement CRT Tubes!

Im not denying the "ultimately" superiour image of the CRT's but what about the almost yearly convergance calibration thats also required to maintain this wonderful image? I've heard this can cost $1k+ in itself?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once you have a CRT you learn to converge yourself so this cost does not come into it unless you get a full colour calibration.

Point taken BUT remember one thing take into account the life of a projector before you replace it , I cannot seea digital projector lasting upwards of 60,000 hours as the chassis does on a CRT,

I am not in the debate of which is a better long term option the question was raised and i answered it

[wide screen]

Hi all,

ChrisM is dead right with his point on film black levels, any time l have been to the flicks, the film blacks were about the same standard as you would achieve from a good quality lcd projector.

I feel more ripped of paying $13 for a movie ticket and seeing a movie on a crappy, dirty, hotspotting screen, with less than perfect blacks than l do at home with my lcd pj with less than perfect blacks.

My **** for the day!

Cheers

Widescreen

[Mojo-Man]

That is why and Directors and cinematographers use reality as a reference point for colour balance - they know the limitations of the cinema (both sonically and visually), and exceed it by filming with reality as their ultimate goal and refer to 'life-like images' - or if you prefer, a 'window on reality'.

I wasn't going to get into this but... This statement just isn't true.

The colour balance reference is the film stock. Cinematographers shoot for the medium and create their own reality because "reality" is not the ultimate goal. In fact if a cinematographer was to turn in a perfect reproduction of the scene as it was presented to him, he (or she) wouldn't last long!

As for black, well I'm not saying perfect black isn't a good thing, but there's not a 35mm print around that can achieve absolute black on projection, so cinematographers work within this limitation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nonsense. The colour balance reference is reality.

The colour balance *limitation* is film stock (and the Cinema itself).

Film producers work to a realistic life-like presentation which is why the phrase 'window-on-reality' is the current jargon for high-end presentation in the home.

Incidentally Kodak has been working to improve black level in its film stock and irrespective of whether film can achieve black or not, the home presentation of the same film does.

When Buzz falls through the grate on Toy Story 2 - I can't see my hand in front my face until he turns his lights on; similarly for Neo when he swims really deep or on Starship Troopers when the soldier gets eaten alive. Total black-out.

The film calls for complete black - and in my dedicated room you get it. It is **on** the medium - try it for yourself.

This argument that says; 'Cinemas can't achieve black therefore I don't need it either' is a nonsense argument propagated by digital zealots who have to defend the fundamental flaw of thier display device.

Bottom line is a projector is an amplifier - it should amplify only the signal it is fed.

Unfortunately digital (including the Qualia) amplifies itself and provides light when none on the medium (film) exists.

If digital projectors were musical amplifiers - when the music stopped playing you'd have the noise of the amplifier clearly audible - because that's what a digital projector is doing - amplifying its own noise.

Reality is the reference - otherwise we'd stop at 2000:1 CR and say - yep that's about what I get ay mt local cinema - who needs any more?

Only we're not stopping there - are we.

Something else is driving the need for even deeper blacks than is present in your local Multiplex.

That something is reality.

[Mojo-Man]

You're getting a free Qualia now?

Righto.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Essentially yes, but only as a side benefit of a larger dealer in place of receiving a further discount. So there is still a theoretical cost implied if you will, just not to me personally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So despite your earlier claim of 'forking out for a Qualia' you're not now and your company is giving it to you after you had indicated to them you would pay for one and they are saying - "No - keep your $40,000 - we want you to have it for free."

Is that your story today?

So what does the Qualia look like in person - after all the Sony 'installs manager' (curious title) has already been to your house;

"I'll be sure and pass your comments on to the Sony Qualia installs manager when I catch up with him at my house this morning.... " (OzHtFan April 1 2005)

One wonders why you are claiming you are still 'getting a free Qualia' when the 'Sony installs manager' has already visisted.

Did he forget to leave it behind on your ceiling when he left?

What a strange little yarn.

[djOS]

No-one in their right mind pays the rrp of $800 for their lamps, anyone with half an ounce of noodle will find their replacement globe at almost 1/2 the rrp. I'd like to see someone manage to pay less than rrp for their replacement CRT Tubes!

Im not denying the "ultimately" superiour image of the CRT's but what about the almost yearly convergance calibration thats also required to maintain this wonderful image? I've heard this can cost $1k+ in itself?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once you have a CRT you learn to converge yourself so this cost does not come into it unless you get a full colour calibration.

Point taken BUT remember one thing take into account the life of a projector before you replace it , I cannot seea digital projector lasting upwards of 60,000 hours as the chassis does on a CRT,

I am not in the debate of which is a better long term option the question was raised and i answered it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah ok, I wasn't sure how difficult that was.

At my rate of use im going to get aprox 2 years (3000 hours) from each globe & im unlikely to keep my current PJ for more than 4 years. I guess they are getting to the point of being almost disposable.

Just out of curiosity, is your Sony CRT PJ loud? I've heard of ppl having to create sound absorbing boxes around their CRT Pj's due to noise levels; that is one thing I dont have to worry about with my Sony LCD PJ.

[glenncol]

No-one in their right mind pays the rrp of $800 for their lamps, anyone with half an ounce of noodle will find their replacement globe at almost 1/2 the rrp. I'd like to see someone manage to pay less than rrp for their replacement CRT Tubes!

Im not denying the "ultimately" superiour image of the CRT's but what about the almost yearly convergance calibration thats also required to maintain this wonderful image? I've heard this can cost $1k+ in itself?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once you have a CRT you learn to converge yourself so this cost does not come into it unless you get a full colour calibration.

Point taken BUT remember one thing take into account the life of a projector before you replace it , I cannot seea digital projector lasting upwards of 60,000 hours as the chassis does on a CRT,

I am not in the debate of which is a better long term option the question was raised and i answered it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah ok, I wasn't sure how difficult that was.

At my rate of use im going to get aprox 2 years (3000 hours) from each globe & im unlikely to keep my current PJ for more than 4 years. I guess they are getting to the point of being almost disposable.

Just out of curiosity, is your Sony CRT PJ loud? I've heard of ppl having to create sound absorbing boxes around their CRT Pj's due to noise levels; that is one thing I dont have to worry about with my Sony LCD PJ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At times it would be regarded as loud after all is has about 5 or 6 fans in it but with companies like SilentX around they have a couple of 70mm that run at 14db so iwill look at changing the fans with one of these if they are Ok'd by a Sony Tech

[Guest]

Mojo - Once again your aim to insult rather than insight is achieved. Congrats.

To quote you - "When Buzz falls through the grate on Toy Story 2 - I can't see my hand in front my face until he turns his lights on"

and again - "that is why and Directors and cinematographers use reality as a reference point for colour balance"

Now I wasnt aware that Toy Story had real actors and sets?

And my point regarding the cost of tubes is backed up by the high cost of buying the bloody unit (brand new - second mortgage, 2nd hand - risky business. Either way expensive). Once again in your infinite ignorance you fail to see that your original point has been made, and accepted to a point. However the desire for true black is not really why you're here now is it? You think because you own a CRT and have a desire for the deepest blacks that youre better than everyone? I'm a video enthusiast with an now outdated (notice I can be honest) projector, but with a collection of over 600 DVDs you think I dont love movies, or tend to be picky with picture quality? No, I make do with what I have, and I have decided to wait before I step back into the PJ market again for technology to advance. Not because I think current digital sucks, but because I have a unit at home which will service me another couple of years. However your elitism dosnt bother me, everybody is the same when they have an item they purcahse, they would hardly admit to owning a lemon now would they (BTW - that doesnt imply your CRT is a lemon)

[glenncol]

Mojo - Once again your aim to insult rather than insight is achieved. Congrats.

To quote you - "When Buzz falls through the grate on Toy Story 2 - I can't see my hand in front my face until he turns his lights on"

and again - "that is why and Directors and cinematographers use reality as a reference point for colour balance"

Now I wasnt aware that Toy Story had real actors and sets?

And my point regarding the cost of tubes is backed up by the high cost of buying the bloody unit (brand new - second mortgage, 2nd hand - risky business. Either way expensive). Once again in your infinite ignorance you fail to see that your original point has been made, and accepted to a point. However the desire for true black is not really why you're here now is it? You think because you own a CRT and have a desire for the deepest blacks that youre better than everyone? I'm a video enthusiast with an now outdated (notice I can be honest) projector, but with a collection of over 600 DVDs you think I dont love movies, or tend to be picky with picture quality? No, I make do with what I have, and I have decided to wait before I step back into the PJ market again for technology to advance. Not because I think current digital sucks, but because I have a unit at home which will service me another couple of years. However your elitism dosnt bother me, everybody is the same when they have an item they purcahse, they would hardly admit to owning a lemon now would they (BTW - that doesnt imply your CRT is a lemon)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Mark

Just a note on buying a CRT today you can grad a fresh tubed 1272 for about $3000 or a great XG110 for about $5000

[Mojo-Man]

Mojo - Once again your aim to insult rather than insight is achieved. Congrats.

To quote you - "When Buzz falls through the grate on Toy Story 2 - I can't see my hand in front my face until he turns his lights on"

and again - "that is why and Directors and cinematographers use reality as a reference point for colour balance"

Now I wasnt aware that Toy Story had real actors and sets?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It doesn't. It does however have artistic intent and that intent is not lessened for it being a computer generated film.

And that intent is clearly evident on a display device capable of rendering black.

Secondly if you are discounting the issue of black-out then deny it after you have **SEEN** it.

Thirdly the phrase is 'fade to black' - which is of course taken from the films being made for the past 50 years, using real people and real scenery.

I suggest it would help if you widened your own experience performance envelope and understood the issues being discussed **before** commenting on them.

[Guest]

My device is capable of rendering black mate, maybe not to the degree yours is, but still capable of rendering black. Contrary to what you think.

Secondly - where did I discount black? If anything ive been agreeing with you on this one throughout this thread (though it fills my mouth with a disgusting taste to say that)

Third - Fade to Black - WTF are you talking about? Did I utter those words?

Any tips as to how I should widen my "experience performance envelope " (we selling cars now?) ? You seem to think youre the standard of excellence here, well my friend Earth is along way to be brough back down to. Be careful with your choice of words mate.

You know people Im beginning to think that this Moron-Man is an automated response just like when you email Amazon.

[Mojo-Man]

Actually it's not capable of rendering black.

But you don't need to believe me - test your projector.

Put no source/DVD on and tell me what your screen looks like with nothing feeding it.

Or put the scene described earlier - Starship Troopers - opening sequence, the soldier is eaten alive.

Is it grey or black?

Lemme tell ya son, I've been watching digital since before you were born - and: It's Grey.

Next!

[Guest]

LOL - hilarious.

Actually when no source feeds my projector its a nice warm blue.

Get over it Granpap, and go back to watching Flashdance or Electric Dreams or whatever looks good when your eyes are closed and you're achieving "true black"

[Mojo-Man]

Good Lord blue?...

Shouldn't be anything at all - unless of course those pesky manufacturers figured blue looked better than grey pixels lighting up a screen when it should be nothing at all....

Does your audio amplifer do sonic blue as well when nothing is playing?

Maybe it needs calibration....

Or better marketing.

Or something.