Sentient Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Hey guys, has anyone tried the "Graham Slee Gram Amp 3 Fanfare - MC Phono Stage" ? I'm thinking of taking a chance and pulling the trigger on this one. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290354141341&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123 I'll be using a AT33PTG MC cart, which has the following performance characteristics. Output (1Khz 50 mm/sec) 0.5mv Output Impedance 17 ohms Load Impedance >20 ohms The ebay add says this .... The source impedance of a low output moving coil is around 10 Ohms and a load greater than 200 Ohms is needed so as not to noticeably load its output. Moving Coil Cartridge loading is like speaker damping factor in reverse. Too much load has the effect of limiting the mechanical dynamics of the stylus. It is very much like an electricity generator. Anyone observing a fairground generator truck knows that the engine note goes low as the load of the ride is applied. By the same virtue, the stylus is stiffened against the groove with too much load (too low a resistance) which will not only compress the dynamics but also introduce distortion to the peaks. Therefore a slightly higher than recommended 470 Ohms brings a beneficial effect to dynamism. So it seems it's impedance of 470ohms seems to be a reasonable match to the cart I'll be using ? I'm a newb at selecting phono stages. So any words of wisdom, caution or support of this phono stage selection would be appreciated - before I pull the trigger.
chimay Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 A mate has just purchased one for use with a Denon 103, it seems to work very well. Decibel has them for $550, which is more than the ebay lot but they are local. Their customer service is tops too and I was very happy with the Slee Elevator I purchased from them. This mob are Graham Slee sanctioned and cheaper than ebay : http://www.audiocontrol.co.uk/graham_slee/gramamp3fanfare.htm Having said that I've never dealt with them. Cheers, Trevor
Ken Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Ozmillsy, I have dealt with this e-bay seller and they were excellent. However before buying have you checked that they will send to Australia as his listing says UK only. Might be a Graham Slee distribution contractural thing. Also, have you checked postage and insurance costs? When added to the converted buy it now price it might not be all that different than from a local dealer. Ken
ophool Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 As Ken says, postage may make the difference. I have bought from all 3 at one time or another, exchange rates and postage charges varying which was the best option at any time. I would vote 100% for decibel from the POV of ease of warranty issues should they be necessary and also very, very good service. Remember too, a UK version will have one of those great ugly pommie plugs. As to suitability, the ebay description is an almost (if not completely) verbatim description from GSP audio of this unit and the argument for the selected input loading that of the designer himself. I honestly doubt that you will be disappointed with any GSP product, I own several and have onsold one that I upgraded from. Another advantage with the decibelhifi option is that he offers 14 days money back if not satisfied on "endorsed products" and this is one of those, I notice that he is currently offering free express postage also.
gat474 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Plus 1 for Decibel. I bought an SE2 from there a couple of months ago and the service was terrific. The peace of mind factor was a bonus as well as I couldn't imagine having to post back to the UK if there was a problem.
Sentient Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 However before buying have you checked that they will send to Australia as his listing says UK only. Might be a Graham Slee distribution contractural thing. Yeah Ken, checked with the seller. Shipping isnt too bad, 9.99gbp, but dont know if its insured. If I go with this phono stage, I'll go with decibel. I definetly prefer locally delivered electronics, with local power cables. The impedance loading comments were geared around carts with 10ohm output. Although my AT is rated at 17, I think it's still within reasonable limits. No real concerns expressed yet. This could be a reasonable step forward, from the optional MC phono stage in the ME25. Thanks for the feedback fellas. Cheers
wolster Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 No real concerns expressed yet. This could be a reasonable step forward, from the optional MC phono stage in the ME25. Thanks for the feedback fellas. Cheers ZB might disagree with that, ozmilly. He has a very high regard for the ME phono stage, particularly with new caps fitted, which I don't know if you have had done. Cheers wolster
Sentient Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 ZB might disagree with that, ozmilly. He has a very high regard for the ME phono stage, particularly with new caps fitted, which I don't know if you have had done. He could be right too. I'm interested to compare something else to it. The ME is my benchmark, although it doesnt have new caps.
hgholden Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 The Graham Slee Fanfare 3 took my system to another level. You would be well pleased. If you do go down that path I would love to hear some feedback. hg
ophool Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Cheekyboy is the one to ask for a comparison with the ME. Not sure if he was using an ME standalone phono or the one in an ME preamp though.
Sentient Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Cheekyboy is the one to ask for a comparison with the ME.Not sure if he was using an ME standalone phono or the one in an ME preamp though. I've chatted to Cheekyboy about my newly acquired P25, and he let me know that he was previously using the ME standalone phono stage. To be honest, I'm absolutely gobsmacked that there is a suggestion that the builtin phono stage in the ME25 is vastly superior to the ME standalone. If you've seen the builtin phono stage, it's a pissy little addon card. You'd think the standalone unit would murder it !?! Anyway, either way, I intend to compare my builtin ME MC phono stage, to a GSP standalone running into regular line inputs on the ME25. I dont think there can be a fairer comparison than that. Edited October 15, 2009 by ozmillsy
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 No real concerns expressed yet. This could be a reasonable step forward, from the optional MC phono stage in the ME25. Thanks for the feedback fellas.Cheers I doubt that. Your ME25 (particularly, the upgraded model) is pretty much impossible to beat.
Sentient Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 I doubt that. Your ME25 (particularly, the upgraded model) is pretty much impossible to beat. It pays to keep an open mind when comparing components. An open mind I have, as I said earlier, you *could* be right? I'll definetly report back after I've purchased something, and have done a fair comparison.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 It pays to keep an open mind when comparing components. An open mind I have, as I said earlier, you *could* be right? I may be wrong too. I doubt it. The phono stage in the ME25 is equal to the best I (or anyone else) has ever heard. I'll definetly report back after I've purchased something, and have done a fair comparison. Why spend the money? Just borrow one and listen. Before you compare, keep a couple of things in mind: * The upgraded power supply version of the ME25 is a significant step up from the older preamps. * Your preamp is probably in excess of 10 years old. The electrolytic caps should be replaced to ensure top performance.
Jake Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 One has to wonder then why Peter Stein does not concentrate his efforts on producing the world's greatest phono stages, considering he is apparently there already?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 One has to wonder then why Peter Stein does not concentrate his efforts on producing the world's greatest phono stages, considering he is apparently there already? Not enough demand. Don't forget: Every transistor needs to be matched to within 1% tolerance, both to it's complement AND to the prior devices in the circuit. Back when every preamp had a phono stage, it was not a huge effort to find matches. You just buy 20,000 transistors and pay someone to spend countless hours sorting and matching. When the ME15 and ME25 were discontinued, phono equipped preamps represented around 10% of total preamp sales (and falling). If Peter was to continue with the phono stages as they were, the cost would go through the roof. OTOH, if a whole bunch of people petitioned Peter (as I do regularly) to re-start the ME15/25 line, then maybe he would change his mind. HINT, HINT. BTW: The ME15/25 phono stages may, or may not be the world's greatest. I don't know. I do know that I am unaware of a better one. I seriously doubt that anyone builds a better phono stage for less than AUS$1,500.00 or so. PS: None of the above applies to the MERIAA, which, IMO, was a competent, but unexceptional device.
Sentient Posted October 15, 2009 Author Posted October 15, 2009 BTW: The ME15/25 phono stages may, or may not be the world's greatest. I don't know. I do know that I am unaware of a better one. I seriously doubt that anyone builds a better phono stage for less than AUS$1,500.00 or so. You've made some big statements about the built-in phono stage of the ME25. Clearly you are very passionate about the ME preamps, and I respect that. I've been known to be passionate about audio gear aswell. In communications with Peter, he seemed to think that my ME25 was a later model (something about the balance knob having an indent). That being said, it has seen better days, and is definetly in need of a service, to restore it to pristine state. It wouldnt surprise me if it sounded alot better after a service. That being said, after having seen the phono stage section, I'm sceptical about it being up there with the worlds best - it's a big call. I'll post a picture over the weekend, so people can see what we are talking about. I'm really curious and interested to hear what other phono stages you have critically compared it to.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You've made some big statements about the built-in phono stage of the ME25. Clearly you are very passionate about the ME preamps, and I respect that. I've been known to be passionate about audio gear aswell. In communications with Peter, he seemed to think that my ME25 was a later model (something about the balance knob having an indent). That being said, it has seen better days, and is definetly in need of a service, to restore it to pristine state. It wouldnt surprise me if it sounded alot better after a service. If yours has the 5 pin DIN connector for power, then it is the older model, putting it at least 15 years old. That makes an electrolytic cap change a very worthwhile move. That being said, after having seen the phono stage section, I'm sceptical about it being up there with the worlds best - it's a big call. I'll post a picture over the weekend, so people can see what we are talking about. I'm really curious and interested to hear what other phono stages you have critically compared it to. Looks can be deceptive. It's what you don't see that is important. You don't see the very careful, critical matching of transistors (better than 1%), nor the even more critical matching of some capacitors and resistors (better than 0.05%). You don't see the electrolytic caps that are manufactured to Peter Stein's stringent requirements. As was found by all listeners, the upgraded power supply made huge improvements to the phono stage, specifically and the preamp, generally. Here is a short list of the preamps I've compared the ME phono stage to (at least the ones I can recall): Audio Research - SP8, SP11, SP9, SP7. Conrad Johnson - PV10 VTL - Deluxe, Super Deluxe Allen Wright - Four Valve Preamp, 12 Valve Preamp (dunno what the model number was). EAR - Can't recall the model number. Musical Fidelity - Various models. Classe' - Various models. Krell - Various models. Klyne - SK5 Rowland Research - Coherence One Cello - Palette (with phono options) Swiss Physics - Don't recall the model number. Nakamichi - CA5, CA7. Electrocompaniet - Various models. Plus a bunch of others. I found some of the above to be the equal of the ME25, but none were better, IMO. FWIW, one of the best was the Allen Wright 12 valve preamp, IMO.
Sentient Posted October 17, 2009 Author Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Plus a bunch of others. I found some of the above to be the equal of the ME25, but none were better, IMO. FWIW, one of the best was the Allen Wright 12 valve preamp, IMO. Thanks for taking the time to post that. My ME25 will definetly be going back for a service, dont worry about that. I'm still interested to compare it to others, if for no other reason, that I enjoy doing so - it's part of the fun and hobby, in experimenting with new gear. I have no issue paying some $$ for that. For those who are interested, here is a photo of the MC EQ card for the ME preamp (I put a matchbox beside it for scale). Edited October 18, 2009 by ozmillsy Corrected description of the ME MC card
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Thanks for taking the time to post that. My ME25 will definetly be going back for a service, dont worry about that. I'm still interested to compare it to others, if for no other reason, that I enjoy doing so - it's part of the fun and hobby, in experimenting with new gear. I have no issue paying some $$ for that. For those who are interested, here is a photo of just about the best MC phono stage you can get (I put a matchbox beside it for scale). What you have posted a photo of, is not the MC stage, but the equalisation card. The EQ card plugs into the phono stage (should be around160mm X 100mm, with around 2 dozen transistors mounted on it). It is designed so that relatively easy adjustments can be made to tailor the EQ to specific cartridges. Peter no longer offers that service, due to the falling demand for phono cartridges. Nonetheless, he can certainly advise which components need to be altered to suit specific input impedance characteristics (I note yours is set for 20 Ohms) and other factors. Obviously, popular, older style cartridges are probably still on record.
Sentient Posted October 18, 2009 Author Posted October 18, 2009 What you have posted a photo of, is not the MC stage, but the equalisation card. The EQ card plugs into the phono stage (should be around160mm X 100mm, with around 2 dozen transistors mounted on it). Ahhh, ok. I'll have to open up the ME25 and take a photo, so I can stand corrected. It is designed so that relatively easy adjustments can be made to tailor the EQ to specific cartridges. Peter no longer offers that service, due to the falling demand for phono cartridges. Nonetheless, he can certainly advise which components need to be altered to suit specific input impedance characteristics (I note yours is set for 20 Ohms) and other factors. Obviously, popular, older style cartridges are probably still on record. Hang on, are you saying my MC EQ card is set for 20ohms input impedance? That's abit low isnt it?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Ahhh, ok. I'll have to open up the ME25 and take a photo, so I can stand corrected. Hang on, are you saying my MC EQ card is set for 20ohms input impedance? That's abit low isnt it? I'm not certain. In fact, I've never seen a card labelled as such. Usually, the EQ card has a professionally printed label on it. That yours does not, suggests one of several possibilities: * That is was modified by a non-ME agent. * That it is a VERY old preamp, when ME did label their products by hand. 20 Ohms is not especially low for a typical, low output MC cart. Though it is likely that it was done for a specific cartridge. As I recall, the standard MC input impedance was 470 Ohms, but I have seen input impedances as low as 2 Ohms. I can loan you a 'Precision RIAA' card, if you wish. That way, you start with a level playing field, when you compare to the Slee product. What colour are the electrolytic caps on the printed circuit boards? If they are transparent blue, then it is a very old preamp.
Sentient Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 I can loan you a 'Precision RIAA' card, if you wish. That way, you start with a level playing field, when you compare to the Slee product. That's a kind offer, thanks. I may take you up on it. I'll get the ME serviced first. What colour are the electrolytic caps on the printed circuit boards? If they are transparent blue, then it is a very old preamp. I'll take a photo and post it, when I pull the preamp out and get it ready to send back to Peter. Not sure when, I cant bring myself to send it away. It's ok if it's old. They all are now. I'm sure it'll sound even better after Peter has looked at it.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 That's a kind offer, thanks. I may take you up on it. I'll get the ME serviced first.I'll take a photo and post it, when I pull the preamp out and get it ready to send back to Peter. Not sure when, I cant bring myself to send it away. It's ok if it's old. They all are now. I'm sure it'll sound even better after Peter has looked at it. If you wish, you can send it to me. I am MUCH closer. Postage to Cairns can take several days each way. I keep all the parts required to service most problems anyway.
djb Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 jake i think this was wasted on the intended recipients 'One has to wonder then why Peter Stein does not concentrate his efforts on producing the world's greatest phono stages, considering he is apparently there already?' by the way how is your diary of daily tt listening hours going?
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