gainphile Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Thanks to this thread at the HT discussion forum I am aware of its existence. I had been planning to buy the usb version and upgrade to its linux hack. I'm interested only in its capability as 2-channel music source. Movies, youtube, photo-viewing etc. are just nice bonuses :popcorn So to begin.... unboxing the WDTV! I got the unit from Dick Smith. The retail price is $199 and the usual haggling did not lower its price. But then they offered me extra 2yrs replacement warranty for ... nothing . Happy. Opening the unit, typical mass-product packaging. Nothing wrong with that. What surprised me is how small the unit is. It's got all the stuff to get started. Even a pair of batteries . I wish the cables were a bit longer though. The appearance is positive. Plastic don't look that cheap compared to SBlive for example. One HDMI, Two (!) USB ports, Optical out , av, and YPbPr. Most importantly: Ethernet port. I have the itch to open the unit to see what's inside, especially what DAC and outpot stage they're using, but could not find the screws.
nodice Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 I have bought 2, one for my mother and gf's father. They are perfect. The fact that it does not rely on an inbuilt hdd is genius. I go to this place and that place and just insert ipod cable to watch anything that I have without the need to copy it across. Especially the fact both people have an older tv without hdmi.
Batty Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 I have the older none wireless version, I have 2 USB HDD enclosures one 1Tb for movies and one 250Gb for music. works for me. saves cluttering the pc with kids movies too.
gainphile Posted October 28, 2009 Author Posted October 28, 2009 Well I got it running tonight. My first impressions were: - What no volume control! ... I bought the unit to avoid walking to the laptop now it seems I have to walk to the preamp - Network connection was straight-forward. Able to play music etc. fine. But sometimes, for no good reason it says "no media found" or something like that. The network is 10mbps ethernet so I'm not sure what's wrong. - The screen fonts are too small! Not everyone have 42" plasma! What about sound quality? Well, the first I heard it I thought it sounded a bit off, kind of dull and rolled off, I can't put my finger on it. Now, being late at night I can't actually play it at appropriate SPL, So I did few measurements. It's actually very flat up to 20kHz where the brick filter kicks in. So what I was hearing perhaps only placebo effect or due to loudness contour. Or needs more time for 'burning in' Flat FR Distortion at 1kHz. Measurement tool is not detailed enough. But no offensive distortion.
gainphile Posted October 28, 2009 Author Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I played the system at "appropriate" level this morning that is to wake up the kids. It sounded ok, in fact - great . I thought I heard some coloration around 600-700hz but seeing the measurement plot above, that can't be the case. So we'll see if it warrants another investigation. Lack of volume control is starting to become the greatest annoyance. Especially when playing different recordings. What's great with "swing live" suddenly becomes unbearable blaring sound when playing "justice for all" without the ability to quickly turn it down. Not nice. I shuffled quickly on high resolution recording, some 24/96 and 24/192 Flac's, and they all played brilliantly. Sure they are downsampled to 48khz but there are no audible faults to detract from the music. my linux mediacentre can't do this on the fly, so a big plus . Note that I am now plugging the hdd directly using USB. Something is not right with the network but I am using crappy ebay file server, so not entirely sure it's WDTV's fault. A brief information on what I am using to evaluate so far: Speakers: S9 dipoles (3-way full-range) amps: few gainclones + some old discrete amp. 6 channels total xo: active, 3-channels. Drivers individually measured, tuned and time aligned Music so far: - 2L.no 24/96 demo download - Dave grusin 24/192 LP rip - Metallica JFA 24/96 LP rip - Dave foster 24/192 LP rip - Ghostrider jam mp3. No, not nick cage movie. - Bach violin concerto 16/44 - Some indonesian 50's recording 24/192 LP rip - Some diana krall stuff 16/44 Edited October 28, 2009 by gainphile
markeroonie Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 most tempting, but will try and hang out for the Squeezebox touch, even if it will cost twice as much
likwidsh0k Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Nice write up, thanks I really hate to rain on the joy of your new toy but must say I am with markeroonie a bit, have you had a look at the new Squeezebox Touch? I only have the SB Classic and have no experience with the WDTV (yet) but from everything I have read says the WDTV is designed for video. Whereas the SB Touch is purpose built for tunes and has 24/96 support. Couple of quick advantages of the SB Touch.. * Supports sampling rates up to 24 bit / 96 kHz - no downsampling I cannot find the DAC details anywhere but the SB Classic has a Burr-Brown 24-bit so expect it is probably as good if not better. * Brilliant easy to user interface designed for music and fine tuned over many years, I think the 1st one was 2001? I can find an album within seconds, search for a particular song in about 30 seconds from 18,000 tunes, create playlists on-the-fly etc. Plus with all the extras listed here - Squeezing The Most Out Of Your Squeezebox - becomes an incredibly powerful music machine. * Has both volume control and replay gain (pretty sure the WDTV does not have replay gain either?). Hope its cool but thought it wise to suggest it asap because am pretty sure DSE has a no questions asked 14 day return policy and think it really might be something worth considering - New Squeezeboxes released Edited October 29, 2009 by likwidsh0k
mikizee Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I'm happy with my Linn Majik DS... albeit its waaay pricier. but it supports everything right upto 24bit/192khz.
gainphile Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) In terms of quality I'd rate Squeezebox higher any day. . But not price. ... and cmiiw, squeezebox still need a laptop/pc to run SqueezeCenter? If I have to spend $400+ then notebook + soundcard may yield better functionality and quality. At the moment, the lack of volume control is very problematic. I have no problem with sound quality/downsampling. A DiY solution for remote volume will cost $90, not a good value in terms of overal system spending. Edited October 29, 2009 by gainphile
likwidsh0k Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) In terms of quality I'd rate Squeezebox higher any day. . But not price. ... and cmiiw, squeezebox still need a laptop/pc to run SqueezeCenter?If I have to spend $400+ then notebook + soundcard may yield better functionality and quality. That's the cool thing the new SB Touch can access files on a USB HDD.. no laptop/pc required! Not exactly sure the details but believe it now has a small PC processor so it can run Squeezecenter. If you get a chance have look at the Squeezebox to see how good the interface is, I think that might be one of the big pluses over the WDTV for tunes. mikizee raised a good point too, you have some 24/192 so the SB will still be doing some downsampling Found the DAC - http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/HardwareComparison - its a AKM4420, 44.1k, 48k & 96k Edited October 29, 2009 by likwidsh0k
emesbee Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I bought one of these yesterday and have only given it a brief run so far. I already had the earlier model, and was interested in the network connectability and component video on the new model. The implementation of component video is a disappointment. When choosing component, it then requires you to choose a screen resolution, and the only interlace option is 1080i. This is not compatible with my 80cm CRT Sony Trinitron TV. (I'm not sure what its resolution is, the manual doesn't say.) So, I have to resort to using composite video. I'm feeding the digital audio from the optical out into my DacMagic, so sound quality of the WD's D/A conversion is not an issue for me. I'm interested in setting up the network connections, but will need to do some reconfiguring first (currently I just have a basic modem/router with a single wired network connection to my PC). I did try disconnecting the network cable from the PC and connecting to the WD device instead, and that worked fine. It was able to access internet radio and youtube video no problem. I should add that I intend to use this device as a general purpose file player, ie: for video, photos and audio.
gainphile Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 This evening I revisited the problematic network the other night. For some reason the streaming would drop out after 5-10 seconds. This happens both on 16/44 and larger high-resolution recording. Quite puzzling as I am using 10mbps wired network. Quick search on the internet this seems to be a widespread problem. After some experimentation I found out: - Use static ip address instead of DHCP - Remove all attached USB drives. The WDTV seems to try to index all the files on those drives and cause performance issue. - It was still dropping, but after I leave it for a while like 15 minutes, everything works perfectly. Perhaps upon initial selection of a network share, the WDTV is doing some scan or indexing/journaling.
Batty Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 The indexing thing makes sense to me, mine takes a while to re-index after adding files to the HDD
likwidsh0k Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 The implementation of component video is a disappointment. When choosing component, it then requires you to choose a screen resolution, and the only interlace option is 1080i. This is not compatible with my 80cm CRT Sony Trinitron TV. (I'm not sure what its resolution is, the manual doesn't say.) So, I have to resort to using composite video. That really sux being one of the main reasons for the Live Standard Def PAL is res is 576i.. I get the impression reading around that a few people feel this kinda feels like a pre-release firmware to get the product to market and that often first firmware iterations for network devices are buggy. Lots of people are talking about an expected new firmware release soon. Seems everyone is on the Microshaft BETA business model these days.. getting us to test their gear for them. One thing I am sort of hoping for is DVD menus not a biggie but I do have a few DVDs and I wouldn't mind the convenience of ripping to HDD (dirt cheap) and stream with menus. But that an HD Audo pass-thru also seem to be a chipset thing with the WDTV having a Sigma and the others Realtek and they have DVD menus and HD Audio passthru. I think WDTV can pass-thru one of the new formats but not both. This is just from reading around so apologies if incorrect. gainphile - one last thing about the SB and what was bugging me when originally looking at HTPC for FLACs was I would have to turn the tellie on every time I wanted to listen to tunes. Not sure if you saw it just a friendly headsup we discussed music media player and WDTVs quite a bit here hard drive media player
gainphile Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 Well, first of all, CRT is not digital so you can't actually select best picture quality based on digital resolution. Composite is the correct selection, and we use PAL here in Australia. In terms of straight resolution, CRT can't match current plasma/LCDs. Yet the subjective perception is CRT pictures are more "real" or "3d". I think the lack of pixelation is a factor here, but that's another discussion. re: SB, it's true that you don't need TV, but I have two choices: turn TV on, or have a standby laptop (which I had been using as HTPC). Turning on the TV is more convinent and I have since released my laptop for kid's moshi monster use :popcorn. Continuing with the networking saga, the network playback/streaming experience dropouts again. I have concluded that the network streaming is still buggy. It is *not* the case though, with NAS functionality. I can copy gigabits of files fine to usb drive attached to the WDTV. So now, the WDTV has a NAS duty as well, and the music/movie playback is directly from USB. Same convenience and scrolling through the songs/movie is much quicker compared to network. I have played enough recording materials now to conclude that the sound quality of stock WDTV DAC is excellent.
emesbee Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Well, first of all, CRT is not digital so you can't actually select best picture quality based on digital resolution. Composite is the correct selection, and we use PAL here in Australia. Still, I don't see why they can't provide compatible resolution for CRT TVs over component, seeing as they do it for composite. My DVD player can do it, and component still gives noticeably better video quality than composite. Still, I'm optimistic (hopeful?) that they will provide a firmware upgrade.
likwidsh0k Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Still, I don't see why they can't provide compatible resolution for CRT TVs over component, seeing as they do it for composite. My DVD player can do it, and component still gives noticeably better video quality than composite. Still, I'm optimistic (hopeful?) that they will provide a firmware upgrade. I can't find an official Western Digital WDTV forum anywhere, their product page 'online community' links to an infomercial page which links to their support page. But there are a couple of forums though - http://wdtvforum.com/ & http://wdtvforums.com/ Around these and mainly the AVS Forum thread I have seen GuyWD asking for more info on problems to look into them and seems to be the goto support guy. Could maybe post in the AVS Forum thread about it - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1172446
wixy Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Dang, I was excited about the wdtv live until I heard about the component issue. I just recently sold my 46" 1080p samsung lcd and have gone back to my 36" toshiba widescreen crt, hence the need for component support. Anyone know of another network streaming device that has good component output? On a side note, going back to a much smaller crt was a shock having regard to size and loss of detail. However, the picture quality of the crt just seems to blow away the lcd overall. The image on the crt definately looks more "real" and "3d like" whilst the image on the lcd appears flat in comparison. I wish it was possible to have the best of both worlds!
gainphile Posted October 30, 2009 Author Posted October 30, 2009 CRT = the new LP lol ... Better start collecting those roadside 'junk' people are throwing.. jokes aside, I know the TV studios still use CRT to monitor their broadcast. The expensive ones I suppose.
likwidsh0k Posted October 31, 2009 Posted October 31, 2009 CRT = the new LP lol ...Better start collecting those roadside 'junk' people are throwing.. jokes aside, I know the TV studios still use CRT to monitor their broadcast. The expensive ones I suppose. and betamax Dang, I was excited about the wdtv live until I heard about the component issue.I just recently sold my 46" 1080p samsung lcd and have gone back to my 36" toshiba widescreen crt, hence the need for component support. Anyone know of another network streaming device that has good component output? On a side note, going back to a much smaller crt was a shock having regard to size and loss of detail. However, the picture quality of the crt just seems to blow away the lcd overall. The image on the crt definately looks more "real" and "3d like" whilst the image on the lcd appears flat in comparison. I wish it was possible to have the best of both worlds! plasma?? That's what I am leaning towards, alot more functionality with a LCD + HTPC combo (surfing, remote into my PC/Server etc) but seems plasma has deeper blacks and more natural colours.. gainphile I think plasma is the new LP :) Do these play FLAC files too? Yup List of music formats.. MP3, WMA, OGG, WAV/PCM/LPCM, AAC, FLAC, Dolby Digital, AIF/AIFF, MKA WDTV Live also supports DTS (2.0) and playlists - PLS, M3U, WPL
Batty Posted October 31, 2009 Posted October 31, 2009 Thanks for that. As for betamax, we used to use the Sony Umatic format when recording live firings(shh I didn't say that).
emesbee Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Well, I set up the WD Live device on my network last night (after I connected in a 4 port switch - wired). It was a piece of cake. First I set up a network share on my PC for the folders containing my photos, music files and videos. I then logged on to my PC successfully from the WD Live, and was able to browse the shared folders and play the stored files. I didn't have to play around with any network configuration parameters, ip addresses or the like, auto detection worked a treat. USB devices attached to the WD Live can also be browsed and played from the PC, but some software has to be installed from the included CD first. The instructions on doing this weren't very clear, and I had to browse through the sub-folders on the CD to find the installer. Once I found it though, installation was simple and quick, and the software works fine. So far, I'm rather favourably impressed with its network capabilities. It was easy to set up, and appears to work well. No doubt there are some areas that could be improved, but I expect there will be firmware updates in future. (eg: some expanded web browsing capabilities would be nice.)
gainphile Posted November 5, 2009 Author Posted November 5, 2009 Ok.. I've lived with this WDTV for a week now. So my verdict: Sound quality: 9/10 ... it's that great. If it had a native 96khz DAC i'd give 10 The sound is natural (see measurement above), clean, and resolving. There is nothing that distract me from the music and the dynamic is excellent. No hum, hiss whatsoever. There is no veil (lol) nor digital grain (rofl). And yes I've heard expensive sources before both analogue and digital. Play ability: 10/10. Plays allformat I threw, FLAC of 16/44 to 24/192khz ! WAV, mp3 if you're into that kind of thing. Usability: 8/10. I take 1 point off for small fonts on my small CRT and one point for no volume control Network: undecided due to my crappy file server. With it the playback stuters Bonuses: 10/10 (movie playback, internet radio, youtube) Amazing stuff this linux is. Truly a great appliance. This is a manufacturer who listen to the voice of the consumer and the generation. Hence it's a keeper . I'll update my opinion in the next month. And my wishlist is only one: Put a 96khz or 192khz DAC in it. pleeeease
emesbee Posted November 5, 2009 Posted November 5, 2009 Network: undecided due to my crappy file server. With it the playback stuters I'll give it a thumbs up for its network features. Set up was very easy, and it works well (on my network). So far I haven't encountered any playback problems at all accessing files on my computer's hard drive (ie: no stuttering).
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