moa999 Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 The only thing, besides sport, that has been keeping me watching (well, recording/time-shifting/ad-skipping) FTA TV, has been that the HD channels provide better PQ than even the best torrents. So I understand why most around here aren't happy, and I'm not happy either. But if I try to be a little more pragamatic about it, I personally think that Ten are ahead of the game in making this decision. When you get right down to it, pre-produced shows and movies have no place at all on broadcast TV. That sort of programming is crying out for on-demand models, as most of us already know. In the long run, broadcast TV only has a future in showing live and/or interactive material. Sport, news and the likes of Idol. And that is a very very smart comment. Why does TiVO have an unused internet connection. Although always tough in Australia given the upload/ download restrictions from ISPs
davmel Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Quick question, why isn't it possible to upgrade from 7MHz and get more bandwidth so we can have more HD channels without losing quality? Our TV channels are assigned in 7MHz blocks as a result of our choice of analogue PAL television which requires that much to broadcast one analogue TV channel. The digital DVB-T transmissions can't expand that or their transmission would interfere with adjacent digital or analogue TV channels.
rubaisport Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 I really cant wait till this channel is released. Im being distracted by it already Well there goes my uni grades But my biggest concern is that SC10 will do exactly what they have been doing with the HD channel, so we might miss out AGAIN!
davmel Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 because only about 40% of households have digital TV atm But they've had nearly 8 years to get a STB! FFS, If the carrot approach doesn't work then use a hard stick! and there are still a number of transmitter sites without a digital equivalent of the available analogue channels, analogue isn't due to be switched off until end of 2013, but earlier in regional areas. But all the capital cities have had mandated digital transmission since Jan 1, 2001. And those areas will still be the last required to switch off analogue in 2013! Also there are quite a lot of multi-unit dwellings that need to spend 1000's of dollars to upgrade their antenna distribution systems to be able to carry digital, there aren't enough competent installers out there to be able to do all of these quickly. It will be amazing how quickly those body corporates get their act together when every single tenant simultaneously screams at them to get it done as they can't watch their TV.
pneu Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 I do watch supernatural, dexter etc on 10HD - Calibrating your display for your DVD player using DVE is not that same as having your display ISF calibrated for each individual source, resolution & refresh rate. My brightness is calibrated for DVB mode using video black (pillarbox/letterbox black) as a basis for setting brightness. Also the poor black levels are only within certain shows and are otherwise fine so I know that the problem is isolated to those shows only therefore its not my tv. When they fade to black for a commercial I can see the black dimming significantly. Also it varies week to week, some weeks we get nice 25p versions with proper colours and blacks, other weeks its the 24>60>50 conversion with poor blacks, washed out colours.
pneu Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 no, nothing is filmed at more than 25 Frames/Sec in Australia, 50 Fields/Sec yes, but 50 Fields/Sec can be sent as 25 Frames/Sec. I've never heard of anyone sending 50i as 25p before. In theory it's possible but would be difficult to implement. Are you sure you're not confusing it with 25p as 50i?
Colin 2905 Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 But my biggest concern is that SC10 will do exactly what they have been doing with the HD channel, so we might miss out AGAIN! Yep, my thoughts also. Those of us in SC10 areas are probably doomed to having nothing much more on SC10 HD than a demo loop. As much as I'm not into sport, at least it'd be different. (And if I wanted to watch the demo loop ad nauseam, I have two HD PVR's that could assist me there.)
digitalj Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 I've never heard of anyone sending 50i as 25p before. In theory it's possible but would be difficult to implement. Are you sure you're not confusing it with 25p as 50i? when you use a DVD Recorder to record FTA Digital, it receives 576i50, it then converts it to 576p25 for recording as progressive signals can be compressed better than interlaced, then when you play it back, selecting interlaced will convert every frame into 2 fields or if you select progressive, it will playback each frame twice.
Neon Kitten Posted October 29, 2008 Author Posted October 29, 2008 When you get right down to it, pre-produced shows and movies have no place at all on broadcast TV. Err, except for the teensy fact that those "pre produced shows" were MADE for broadcast TV, and people have an expectation that they'll be able to see them without having to pay for a subscription to something or hand over money to Apple... That sort of programming is crying out for on-demand models, as most of us already know. On-demand models of any kind will not happen on any significant scale in this country until broadband is sorted out (i.e. everyone has a decently fast connection and download limits are significantly increased or removed entirely). And that's simply never going to happen while Telstra has a stranglehold over the key infrastructure. TV on demand, IPTV, Tivo sucking down HD shows, NONE of this is in Australia's near future. The delivery infrastructure simply isn't there, and does not look like being there in the foreseeable future.
pneu Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 when you use a DVD Recorder to record FTA Digital, it receives 576i50, it then converts it to 576p25 for recording as progressive signals can be compressed better than interlaced, then when you play it back, selecting interlaced will convert every frame into 2 fields or if you select progressive, it will playback each frame twice. But if you select progressive on the DVD player you will get combing artefacts because it's showing 50i as 25p. How will this be handled in a broadcast scenario?
digitalj Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 But if you select progressive on the DVD player you will get combing artefacts because it's showing 50i as 25p. How will this be handled in a broadcast scenario? if the source was filmed or captured progressively, there won't be any problems, if it was captured in an interlaced method, i.e. 576i50, just using weave to weave fields 1 and 2 into Frame 1, Fields 3 and 4 into Frame 2, etc to make 576p25, the STB at home would convert it back to 576i50 which will reproduce the original 576i50, this is sent to the TV and a de-interlacing method other than weave is performed, e.g. bob de-interlacing, or motion adaptive deinterlacing which is a combination of weave and bob methods. Therefore there are no problems with sending 576i50 as 576p25.
hazzad Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Err, except for the teensy fact that those "pre produced shows" were MADE for broadcast TV, and people have an expectation that they'll be able to see them without having to pay for a subscription to something or hand over money to Apple...On-demand models of any kind will not happen on any significant scale in this country until broadband is sorted out (i.e. everyone has a decently fast connection and download limits are significantly increased or removed entirely). And that's simply never going to happen while Telstra has a stranglehold over the key infrastructure. TV on demand, IPTV, Tivo sucking down HD shows, NONE of this is in Australia's near future. The delivery infrastructure simply isn't there, and does not look like being there in the foreseeable future. Totally agree.
pneu Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 if the source was filmed or captured progressively, there won't be any problems, if it was captured in an interlaced method, i.e. 576i50, just using weave to weave fields 1 and 2 into Frame 1, Fields 3 and 4 into Frame 2, etc to make 576p25, the STB at home would convert it back to 576i50 which will reproduce the original 576i50, this is sent to the TV and a de-interlacing method other than weave is performed, e.g. bob de-interlacing, or motion adaptive deinterlacing which is a combination of weave and bob methods.Therefore there are no problems with sending 576i50 as 576p25. While this is possible in theory , I don't think this sort of functionality is built into the DVB or MPEG2 spec. . Geting this to work for a broadcast at 720p25 (which must be output by the STB as 1080i50 for it to work) is not really feasible. I'm not sure 720p25 is even a valid DVB format.
Craig M Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Therefore there are no problems with sending 576i50 as 576p25. Yes, there is. It is technically incorrect. Flagging something as 25p intrinsically tells the MPEG decoder that only 25 unique pictures are present each second, as opposed to 50. Why not just keep it at 576i50? Best of all worlds. You can still send 25p material as segmented frame in 50i, and weave the fields together to get 25p, as is commonly done now in good progressive DVD players. Craig.
pneu Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Why not just keep it at 576i50? Apparently because 25p will encode better than 50i. There was some debate on this a while back and nobody really knows whether it does or not. Personally I doubt whether it's enough to provide any benefit for 720p at low bitrate like 10mbps.
Craig M Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) when you use a DVD Recorder to record FTA Digital, it receives 576i50, it then converts it to 576p25 for recording as progressive signals can be compressed better than interlaced, then when you play it back, selecting interlaced will convert every frame into 2 fields or if you select progressive, it will playback each frame twice. What absolute rubbish. The only time a domestic DVD recorder will record 576i50 as progressive is if it's in Long Play/Record mode in which case it has to drop the frame rate from 50 to 25 at half res, which means it's actually recording 288p/25, and re-samples back up to 576i50 on playback (or whatever progressive mode it has for the HDMI output). Thus any 'video' 50Hz originated material will have the 25Hz 'film-look', ie motion judder on camera pans etc due to every 2nd field being dropped. Craig. Edited October 29, 2008 by Craig
mrfixits Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 What's wrong with you people? Complaining about a 24/7 sports channel? What's more important, content or picture quality? Would you rather watch SD cricket or HD neighbours?Do you think Ten wants to waste frequency on content they're still forced to transmit in analouge anyway? Of course not. Before the analogue cutoff HD is nothing but bait to pull people to digital. Two HD channels can be compressed into 7 Mhz anyway. Digital's possible benefit of multiple channels far outweighs it's possible benefit of HD, as far as the tv stations are concerned. I agree with them; I won't change early to digital just for HD, but I might for a 24/7 sports channel (and hopefully even more channels than that). Wait unitl analogue is shut off before you complain. Everything will settle down then, and you'll know what you're getting. What is wrong with You???? a 24/7 sports channel is just stupid NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO WATCH BLOODY SPORTS!!!!!! there is more to life than sports.....some english poof hitting a ball with a bat.....wow what fun....i would rather watch paint dry in HD than watch sport, if you need sport that bad get Austar or Foxtel. 24 Hour sports and nothing else....what a bloody joke.
Hosko Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 because only about 40% of households have digital TV atm, retailers won't be able to suddenly supply millions of STB's for those without it, and there are still a number of transmitter sites without a digital equivalent of the available analogue channels, analogue isn't due to be switched off until end of 2013, but earlier in regional areas. That figure is seriously lower then the actual figure. If you count anyone who has Foxtel/Austar (they have nearly 35-40% penetration) then you factor in anybody who has bought a TV in the last two years then anybody who has a STB the actual figure would be 60-70%. I believe the figure going around was 55% at the start of the year.
Basil1503559642 Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) Hi All this is a moot point in the long run,perhaps 10 is just getting ahead of the game, as the tech-heads will tell anyone willing to listen,all DTV Broadcasts in Oz will eventually be only HD, its just a matter of whether its 10 Years or 20 years+ away. Edited October 29, 2008 by Basil
digitalj Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 That figure is seriously lower then the actual figure. If you count anyone who has Foxtel/Austar (they have nearly 35-40% penetration) then you factor in anybody who has bought a TV in the last two years then anybody who has a STB the actual figure would be 60-70%. I believe the figure going around was 55% at the start of the year. Pay TV isn't part of the figure.
hazzad Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Hi All this is a moot point in the long run,perhaps 10 is just getting ahead of the game, as the tech-heads will tell anyone willing to listen,all DTV Broadcasts in Oz will eventually be only HD, its just a matter of whether its 10 Years or 20 years+ away. No offence but id like my HD now and not in 10-20 years time.
pgdownload Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 24 Hour sports and nothing else....what a bloody joke.Well no its 1 little channel offering sports (apparently Foxtel offer 5). There's a dozen + other FTA channels you can watch if you like...That figure is seriously lower then the actual figureHave to disagree. If Australia shut down its analogue network today then around 40% of people would have access to the digital SD channels. About half that probably the HD channels. Regards Peter Gillespie PS Can we please talk about 25Hz v 50Hz somewhere else?
anthj Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 The sooner analogue is cut off the sooner people will get digital.
davmel Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Well no its 1 little channel offering sports (apparently Foxtel offer 5). There's a dozen + other FTA channels you can watch if you like... Foxtel actually has 9 dedicated sports channels: Fox Sports 1 Fox Sports 2 Fox Sports 3 EuroSport News ESPN Setanta Sports Sky Racing Fox Sports HD ESPN HD plus there will no doubt be more next year.
digitalj Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Foxtel actually has 9 dedicated sports channels:Fox Sports 1 Fox Sports 2 Fox Sports 3 EuroSport News ESPN Setanta Sports Sky Racing Fox Sports HD ESPN HD plus there will no doubt be more next year. you forgot TVN
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