Computers-PCs-Mac-Digital Source

[greenie512]

Listener was good enough to host me and Waricle for a few days up at Noosa, so we drank a lot of piss and talked crap for quite a while. In between we (they, I had a bad back) clambered in the roof space to run Cat 6 into various rooms for data and media streaming.

Listener has just built a new Multimedia PC rough spec is AMD Athlon Chip, Gegabyte motherboard, Lynx AES16 sound card etc …. I’m sure Listener will amplify in full in a posting but he’s packing someone up for a house move at the moment so may be a while.

Waricle brought along his Mac notebook, so we lined up ..·

• Above PC – J River
  
• A· Dell Mini 9 – Hackintosh – Pure Music
  
• Mac notebook – Pure Music
  
• Dell Mini - Win 7 – J River
  

All cables were a Listener build with Bel Bel Canto Dac 3 - Bel Canto e.One REF1000 [x2] - Dynaudio Twynn speakers. The two Dells and Mac were all very close in quality of sound with the Hackintosh at the bottom, then the Mac and marginally above the Dell/Win7 combo with just a touch more detail. All three would make a good second room system or a great newbie’s first system. The Multimedia PC was easily the best with more of an “Audio/Hi Fi†presentation, better sound stage and more detail.

Here’s a few pictures two are based around Mark Audio Alpair 10 Full Range speaker mac people will notice a G5 of the left and currently we were trying Waricle’s Mac

I appreciate this might belong to the GTG forum but hope this will develop into a more details thread once Listener adds full spec etc.

[kdoot]

How were all those machines connected to the DAC - USB, toslink, what?

I've read that the DAC3's USB input isn't as good as its others, and the Lynx AES card with AES/EBU connection is always going to be a hard one to beat because of its very low jitter. If you had each machine configured to output bit-perfect data then jitter is the only known reason for any difference in audio quality.

[greenie512]

Hi Kdoot - Dells+Mac were on USB as you may have guessed which was why we were looking at them as a group. Yep, PC was connected via AES to the DAC3 which as you say would account for the higher level of performance.

[Grainy]

I see J River is your Windows player of choice. I probably should just wait for Listener to add his bit but I was wondering if you played around with output plug-ins in J River or did you use the default. Also, what OS was the PC running.

I'm keen on trying as many different software/driver combo's as I can to see what I really like as far as usability goes, and to see if there is any difference in sound.

  Quote

...but hope this will develop into a more details thread once Listener adds full spec etc.

I'll be keen on seeing more details as the thread progresses.

[kdoot]

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not surprised at your conclusions, then.

What would be very interesting would be to add something like the HiFace into the comparison.

[waricle]

My two bob's worth-

After the comparison for sound the PC was the clear preference.

The video interface was what interested me and with the mac I am frustrated by the limitations of itunes.

Pure Music works in conjunction with itunes so it's no better in that regard.

Yesterday I set up the mac at home with an E-MU 0202 usb dac and hooked it up to my lounge system ( Meridian 101 /103b pre power and PBL two way speakers)

The sound was as good as the system would allow and there was a clear improvement over my usual mac / wireless sb3 combo.

But that video interface is still a nuisance.

I have decided to bite the bullet and with a little bit of help from my friends have a PC system built similar to Listeners but with a higher spec soundcard in lieu of an outboard dac but with the ability to add a dac at a later date.

That way I will have not only full access to the library but a friendly interface as well -and the ability to upgrade easily.

[kdoot]

What video interface are you talking about - Front Row?

Have you seen Plex? (it's free, http://www.plexapp.com/)

[Aslan]

  waricle said:

My two bob's worth-

After the comparison for sound the PC was the clear preference.

The video interface was what interested me and with the mac I am frustrated by the limitations of itunes.

Pure Music works in conjunction with itunes so it's no better in that regard.

Yesterday I set up the mac at home with an E-MU 0202 usb dac and hooked it up to my lounge system ( Meridian 101 /103b pre power and PBL two way speakers)

The sound was as good as the system would allow and there was a clear improvement over my usual mac / wireless sb3 combo.

But that video interface is still a nuisance.

I have decided to bite the bullet and with a little bit of help from my friends have a PC system built similar to Listeners but with a higher spec soundcard in lieu of an outboard dac but with the ability to add a dac at a later date.

That way I will have not only full access to the library but a friendly interface as well -and the ability to upgrade easily.

Hi warwicle, nice to see you guys are getting with the times. It may pay to check out some of the ultra high spec gaming motherboards....................onboard audio of 192KHz 24bit resolution, high quality caps and components and the latest 1920 x 1200 video codecs. No need for add on video or audio cards. HDMI output as well.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Aslan

[proftournesol]

I've found Toslink connections give superior sound to USB on every model Mac that I've tried (4) - that may be the Macs, it is also likely to be the DACs (3), but USB in my experience isn't much chop for music. My preference is for Firewire (Weiss DAC). I don't know if this also applies to PCs.

[Guest Muon]

I have a Gigabyte board that has all solid caps and onboard Azalia HD audio, but as far as I'm concerned it sucks, and even an Audigy2 card is a step up from these integrated audio solutions.

I have also found that boards in general that have integrated video to be less reliable than boards that do not...

Though I agree that a quality board is a must, and many of the Gigabyte boards have all solid caps and are inexpensive compared to other brands, I have also found them to be very reliable overall, these days.

[Aslan]

  datafone said:

I have a Gigabyte board that has all solid caps and onboard Azalia HD audio, but as far as I'm concerned it sucks, and even an Audigy2 card is a step up from these integrated audio solutions.

I have also found that boards in general that have integrated video to be less reliable than boards that do not...

Though I agree that a quality board is a must, and many of the Gigabyte boards have all solid caps and are inexpensive compared to other brands, I have also found them to be very reliable overall, these days.

Re: Gigabyte.......................................the 'supposed' HD Audio on the 785 series sucks despite 2Oz pcbs and decent caps. The centre channel is as noisy as shite when used is SS mode, and its a chipset issue.

The Asus Mobo's with ADI chipsets are a far better option but expect to pay over $400 for the right one.

[Guest Muon]

I see where you are coming from now, Aslan. I haven't looked at the Gigabyte 785 series or that Asus board, I'll have a look as I'm curious :popcorn

[Grainy]

I just thought I'd add my bit in, again I'm on about the software. I have installed the demo of J River Media Center. I'll tell you, it's high on the WAF after I configured it to work with a Microsoft MCE remote I had lying around and for it to startup Theater mode from bootup.

I have configured it to use WASAPI output to the Havana DAC. Now I'm sitting here listening if I can tell the difference in my system between it and MediaMonkey in DirectSound Output.

BTW, I got my Valab DAC working and was able to compare it with the Havana. The difference is huge. The tube output of the Havana does take out the rough edges of the music, the sound is velvety in comparison.

Here's a pic of the setup, we are in our new room and in desperate need of more soft furnishings and curtains..... BTW the sub is part of the Yamaha soundbar we use for the movie watching. It's not hooked up to the Stereo at all. The poor old Pioneer quad amp is performing a tuner role at the moment (admirably). Maybe I should have posted it in showcase.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15816[/ATTACH]

[burningpanda]

I'm trying the JRiver and for the price its a great allrounder - still prefer Foobar with DTS and related plugins for audio. With something like Sharky's codec pack Win 7 Media Center can handle most video playback and it integrates really well with the OS (it's useless without some tweaks). I splashed out on Total Media Theater for hidef music/bluray rips (integrates into Win7 Media Center too) but J River can do most of that without hacking Windows components! so i can see the attraction.

With the multimedia PC i've found a quality (quiet) power supply, an aftermarket cpu cooler (quieter than stock and runs a few degrees cooler) really important. Most newer mobo's will throttle back the cpu (quiet or silent mode in BIOS) and either a passively cooled gpu (harder to find and needs good ventilation) or a lightweight fan cooled card (Radeon 4650 - 4670) have more grunt than onboard gpu solutions. Solidly built case that isn't going to rattle and hum.

With the quality of $200 'audiophile' PCIe audio card nowadays why would anyone who wants music bother with onboard sound.

[Guest Muon]

Ok, had a look at the ADI solution, yeah, SoundMAX.

Better than Realtek apparently, still not something I am keen on as I still see it as a low quality solution.

And after building PC's for the last eight years, I will still always go for a dedicated graphics card used with a board that omits integrated video over a board with integrated video.

You can get a good Gigabyte board and capable graphics card along with a very good audio card for a total of around $400, maybe a little less. That's better than a $400 integrated solution and costs no more, just my own opinion and preference.

[Aslan]

  datafone said:

Ok, had a look at the ADI solution, yeah, SoundMAX.

Better than Realtek apparently, still not something I am keen on as I still see it as a low quality solution.

And after building PC's for the last eight years, I will still always go for a dedicated graphics card used with a board that omits integrated video over a board with integrated video.

You can get a good Gigabyte board and capable graphics card along with a very good audio card for a total of around $400, maybe a little less. That's better than a $400 integrated solution and costs no more, just my own opinion and preference.

Like everything in hifi, there are compromises to be made, and way too many options available, arent there. I prefer the onboard option as it means less fan noise, less power consumption and more even airflow within the chassis making it easier to keep everything cool and quiet. Just my approach and YMMV. Its certainly good fun exploring the possibilities.

[waricle]

  proftournesol said:

I've found Toslink connections give superior sound to USB on every model Mac that I've tried (4) - that may be the Macs, it is also likely to be the DACs (3), but USB in my experience isn't much chop for music. My preference is for Firewire (Weiss DAC). I don't know if this also applies to PCs.

Are you still using itunes to access your library?

[proftournesol]

  waricle said:

Are you still using itunes to access your library?

Hi waricle, yes i use iTunes as my Library/ file manager. Amarra can run invisibly in the background, automatically changing bitrate and muting iTunes for lossless files, then turning itself off when I play lossy files. I've also tried Play, better sound than iTunes but clunkier, doesn't integrate with iTunes and doesn't sound as good as Amarra.

[proftournesol]

  waricle said:

Are you still using itunes to access your library?

Hi waricle, yes i use iTunes as my Library/ file manager. Amarra can run invisibly in the background, automatically changing bitrate and muting iTunes for lossless files, then turning itself off when I play lossy files. I've also tried Play, better sound than iTunes but clunkier, doesn't integrate with iTunes and doesn't sound as good as Amarra.

[rob323]

Ah, I see the bass traps are still ah la naturaaal! :nana

[Guest Muon]

  Aslan said:

Like everything in hifi, there are compromises to be made, and way too many options available, arent there. I prefer the onboard option as it means less fan noise, less power consumption and more even airflow within the chassis making it easier to keep everything cool and quiet. Just my approach and YMMV. Its certainly good fun exploring the possibilities.

I used to run a water cooling set-up in my PC when all the other options were too noisy :nana though there are many passive vid cards these days and a few fan based ones that are very low noise. I do agree that personal preference plays a big part in this area, and as you say, It's always fun Edited March 31, 2010 by datafone
spelling :P

[proftournesol]

This is not meant as PC bashing but I've never understood why PCs need to be so noisy when Mac based computers that use the same processors are either silent or near silent. I've never heard the fan on my Mac mini and a Mac Pro with multi processors doesn't even use a fan.

[Grainy]

I use a Hewlett Packard Small Form Factor PC and it's very quiet. There are a lot of name brand small footprint PC's similar to Macs which are very quiet. For example, check out the DELL Zino. But when you start beefing them up with high end video cards, multiple hards drive etc, then the heat builds up and more airflow is required to cool them down.

Who would "hot up" a Mac? :nana

[proftournesol]

  Grainy said:

Who would "hot up" a Mac? :nana

You've got a point there Grainy. Who would want to hot up a slug like this? It still doesn't need a fan.

[Fangzie]

Anything a Mac can do, a PC can for less and every bit as well (if not better) IMO . Including running quietly/silently