The best DAC processor design?

[Nada]

I want a new DAC. I cant listen to many models as there are few in retail outlets.

I have a dazzlingly wide choice of DAC models over the internet but that means buying before hearing. So Ive decided to try to analyse the choice in the hope of making less mistakes.

The heart of the DAC might be seen as the actual DAC processor. Clearly for it too perform well like any heart it needs a good supply of energy (via good power regulation) and it needs great arteries (output stages).

In deciding what DAC to buy I think for me a valid way of cutting through the complexities is to initially select the type of DAC processor.

Sigma-delta DAC's appear flawed. There goes the majority of DACs icluding the Sabre and maybe the Lavry though its hard to know what DAC process is used.

Selecting R-2R DAC processors really limits the choices nicely.

Two common types are the classic TDA1541 or the newer PCM1704. It seems the PCM1704 might be a more sophisticated convertor as it can handle high resolution files up to 96/24 which looks like a promising future supply of true high quality music delivery.THe PCM1704 seems to have been selected in some very high quality and pricey products that I guess are rare creatures.

Has anyone heard these two processors in different models so the actual character of the processors can be recognised beyound the input-output effects ?

[Audiobugged]

Not convinced you're on the right track here - the dac processor itself is only a small part of the picture. Implementation of the other parts such as the output stage is where the challenge and therefore how good the dac is. When you buy a car, you do not start with the number of cylinders, or configuration. Ie. Inline 4 vs boxer 4 vs inline 6 vs boxer 6 vs v6 vs v8 etc...

Eg. I will only consider an inline 6 as it is inherently the best balanced design from a technical point of view...... Flawed thinking.

[DanFi]

I think thats what he means, he has chosen a DAC chip he is interested in and now wants advice on which external DACs have well implemented and high quality circuitry without having to listen to them.

I know its not the best way but last time i was in some audio shops they did not even know what i was talking about when i asked if they had any DACs. And even if they do (90% chance its only the DACMagic) you cannot demo one at home.

Edited April 22, 2010 by DanFi

[wolster]

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[Nada]

Audiobugged - I agree with you that your limitied analogy above using the example of internal combusiton engines is flawed thinking. I am talking about the fundamental electronic engineering processing in the DAC. Using an engine analogy to a car would be akin to deciding if you are going to fit a jet engine, a steam engine, an electric motor or an internal combustion engine to your car. You might have made that choice without thinking when you purchased a car? With DACs you might prefer to think about your fundamental choices as you are not simply stuck with sigma-delta processing anymore then you have to choose an internal combustion engine car http://bev.com.au/about/specifications/

The DAC processing is surely the core function of a DAC. If the core is essentially a faulty design it logically follows whatever is done will remain faulty, no matter how good the implementation is. Try and fit a piston steam engine to your car and see how you go.

I think I might be on to something good here with the R-2R engineering design. Look at the user responses to the TDA1541. Check out the top of the market DAC's that use the PCM1704. Have a read about the sigma-delta operation. Let me know if Ive got this all wrong as Im definitely not an electronics engineer and have very little experience and even less knowlege in this field.

My rationale remains to start with the selecting a DAC (like TDA1541 proponents do), then find what models use that DAC, find out about he way the model implements the DAC as part of the total design, then check out the prices to see what models I can afford and then read some reviews and user views of the short list.

To me thats a rationale process.

What I dont want to do is

get seomthing similar to what Ive had before just out of timidity

get what everyone else is getting just out of laziness

a collection of DACs that all sound the same and are limited cause they use a convenient DAC processing operation that is fundamentally flawed

What I would like is for feedback form those who have listened to R-2R DACs and can offer me some advice eg generalisations about R-2R vs sigma-delta and TDA1541 vs PCM 1704 or similar. Thanks.

[Audiobugged]

Going by your example, that sigma-delta dacs are flawed is inconsistent with the widely held view that the sabre dacs are the best dacs available today? Also on that note, the Lavry (of which I own and have little idea that it has a sigma delta dac) is, imho, one of the best dacs in its price range - I like it, but sure, I have heard better dacs, but they are in all cases more expensive.... I have heard a number of the 1541 dacs and some are good, and some are pretty crap. The price is a reasonably good indicator of the care and attention taken in the implementation. Undoubtedly there are also poor implementations of the sigma delta dacs, thus perhaps these have given it a bad name if that's a widely held view?

My point being, it is always better to evaluate dacs regardless of technology as a first round - then if there is a commonality (eg. if those that you prefer are of the 1704 variety), then narrow down your search to those....

If the car analogy doesn't rock your boat, how about this:

Narrowing down your dac based purely on the chip without actually hearing first is like me telling you that based on commonly held perception, if you are looking for a wife, you must only look at blonde blue eyed ladies with a minimum 36c cup size. Don't bother if they don't fall within that category as they will surely not be worth your while....

Apologies - you could be right and technically the r2r chips may be better (I do not pretend to know so let's not go there), just feel that deciding based on any perceived technical superiority seems a flawed approach, please don't read my comments the wrong way.

AB

Edited April 22, 2010 by Audiobugged

[Once was an audiophile]

regarding tda1541.

their are 1da1541a,tda1541r1,tda1541s1,tda1541s2 versions of the chip.

to me its the most analogue sounding of them all,saying that you have to have the right kind of circuit for it.to get the best out of it.

[seano]

Ummmm. No expert. But I'm fairly confident that there's more to a DAC that just the actual DA chip. For instance, my DAC has three (no, four) functional chips in the chain - one is the 'clock', the next is a digital filter, then the DAC itself (PCM1702) and finally the (forgotten) output stages.

Now if you can recognise the influence of the DAC chip alone on the final 'sound' in all that claptrappery......then you might need to get out more.

A DAC is the sum of its parts.......the parts are important but on their own....useless.

My feeling....the most influential part of any DAC I've ever heard was the power supply.

[Nada]

My feeling....the most influential part of any DAC I've ever heard was the power supply.

was that before or after you inserted your head as per your portrait?

This is another way of getting that pure power supply 50Hz buzz if your interested:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16713[/ATTACH]

I think Ive nailed the power supply for my new DAC as you can see below, but I still need to find the best chip for all those joules to work majic with

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16711[/ATTACH]

Edited April 22, 2010 by Nada

[Once was an audiophile]

tube rectification also add tube output also add tda1541s2 chip and your their

[Nada]

..If the car analogy doesn't rock your boat, how about this:

Narrowing down your dac based purely on the chip without actually hearing first is like me telling you that based on commonly held perception, if you are looking for a wife, you must only look at blonde blue eyed ladies with a minimum 36c cup size. Don't bother if they don't fall within that category as they will surely not be worth your while....

AB

How did you know my criteria for selecting my wives?

Seriously its not easy to hear different DACs. Ive heard enough sigma-delta DACs to hear a common presentation thats by no means universal but is generally of an airy quality with great seperation of instruments in an ethereal way but wih a touch of graininess. Now if your offering to send me over kajaks DAC plus a couple of Esoteric models and a few sabre units so I can demo them I will send you my address as I agree thats the ideal selection process. If you read my first post you might see a glimmer of logic in my apporach in my actual circumstances?

kajak - you like the TDA 1541 and Ive heard a very smooth quality in the CD players Ive heard that use it. I wonder if youve heard any other R-2R based DACs as a comparison?

[Once was an audiophile]

i heard

wadia,audionote dac 2.1,musicalfidelity trivista21,havana,bakoon,

tda1541 with tubes is for me.i have no need to upgrade

[Audiobugged]

Ok.

How did you know my criteria for selecting my wives?

Now if your offering to send me over kajaks DAC plus a couple of Esoteric models and a few sabre units so I can demo them I will send you my address as I agree thats the ideal selection process.

Kojak, can you please liase with Nada for his address, box up your dac and send it over to Brisbane. Make sure it's double boxed and be careful, your stuff seems to have lots of wires hanging off it.

Nada, probably best if you could send a few of those ladies (that meet the criteria but otherwise didn't make your final cut) over Rojak's way. Might be sensible to send any photos first though (cc. me if so)

Hope it's a fair trade and always glad to help...

Oh yes, Dac for a shag (or a hag... Or maybe both!) Perhaps THIS may finally surprise the esteemable Mr. "Nothing surprises me"...

AB

Edited April 22, 2010 by Audiobugged

[Grainy]

Now theres an offer, I'm sure I have a DAC with 8 x tda1543's in it lying around, but I prefer 18D please....

[Once was an audiophile]

Ok.

Kojak, can you please liase with Nada for his address, box up your dac and send it over to Brisbane. Make sure it's double boxed and be careful, your stuff seems to have lots of wires hanging off it.

Nada, probably best if you could send a few of those ladies (that meet the criteria but otherwise didn't make your final cut) over Rojak's way. Might be sensible to send any photos first though (cc. me if so)

Hope it's a fair trade and always glad to help...

Oh yes, Dac for a shag (or a hag... Or maybe both!) Perhaps THIS may finally surprise the esteemable Mr. "Nothing surprises me"...

AB

no need to post it ab,their is one all ready in brisbane a sna member has got one.besides its the heart and soul of my system so its staying here i just cant depart with it.cd players just dont do it for me or any other commercialy available dacs:)

[Once was an audiophile]

Now theres an offer, I'm sure I have a DAC with 8 x tda1543's in it lying around, but I prefer 18D please....

i have one aswell,playing around with the internalls of it,lots of fun.

[andyr]

if you are looking for a wife, you must only look at blonde blue eyed ladies with a minimum 36c cup size.

AB

And 25 to 35 years old. 36C will be fine though - no need of excess! Sounds good to me!

Regards,

Andy

[Nada]

Just getting this thread back on topic:

Below is a recent post from another thread

It reports on the Lite DAC-83 taht has the R-2R PCM1704 at it heart...it also has a separate power supply, is reliatively pricey etc etc, but this an interesting intial finding:

Today 04:53 PM #31

jaspert

I had only heard DacMagic at a friend's system and when compared to Lavry DA10, it sounded a bit lean through mid, tinkly up top and less engaging to my ears. No doubt it's still good value for money for the features provided and may well be more suited with some systems.

Now i've been comparing the Lite DAC-83 to the Lavry DA10 over the last week. This thing is way overbuild for a Dac, big and heavy with the separate power unit.

At the moment, I think the DAC-83 has an even more refined high, still engaging mid and a touch better in imaging. Might get better with more hours.

[Young Skywalker]

Most delta-sigma digital to analogue converters use off-the-shelf DAC chips (and digital filters for those not in the NOS camp) from only a handful of vendors. Therefore, they will all have very similar technical capabilities (resolution, signal-to-noise ratio, etc) and their sonic signature will reflect the designer's choice of output stage and/or methodology for handling the incoming digital and clock data. I have not yet heard a DAC using the Sabre chipset and these may well be a cut above the rest depending on implementation of course.

There are some manufacturers (MSB Technology, dCS, Playback Designs and Theta Digital to name a few) who do things a little differently to the rest by going down the discrete DAC route (as opposed to the same old chipsets that everyone else is using) with custom filtering solutions tailor made to their particular implementation.

YS

[Nada]

Heres one view on DA processing designs if you want a read. Ive no idea if its technically accurate.

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm

[lebowski]

some of Dan Lavry's white papers on Digital Audio and DAC design are a good read. Digital Audio and Sampling, Oversampling, Imaging ...

You can find them here - http://www.lavryengineering.com/index_flash.html

[djb]

nada

now we r back on track....... pity really.........

i think your original argument has merit if only for the purpose of containment.

perhaps if u drew up 2 lists one for each chipset category snaers could comment on the SQ characteristics of those they had heard.

far from scientific but a start