7mate

[digitalj]

So, typically you'll see more grass on the field in a football match on ONE HD versus Fox Sports HD.

I disagree, I've watched Tennis on Fox Sports HD recently and compared it to what 9HD was showing and this is what I noticed:

9HD:

The net was very blurred, kind of like you couldn't see through it.

Fox Sports HD:

The net was very clear, you could distinctly see each piece of string that makes up the net and you could see through the net

[Wags69]

don't think they "own" the HD equipment, rather is contractor ie.g. global supply it as required. stand outside the stadium and see trucks with tv equipment which are not marked 7,9,10

So there is only 20-30 HD cameras and gear in the country to film anything at any given time?

[davmel]

But careful comparison of the same documentaries on 9HD vs Nat Geo, or Vancouver Olympics, shows that on slower and/or less detailed scenes, FTA MPEG-2 will look better than Foxtel's HD. Thanks to a combination of a higher bitrate and a less "stretchy" VBR, these scenes will get more detail on FTA MPEG-2 HD.   So, typically you'll see more grass on the field in a football match on ONE HD versus Fox Sports HD.

Complete utter BS. Go and have a look at all the static and motion still shots I posted comparing 9HD with Vancouver Olympics Foxtel coverage and 9HD looked worse EVERY SINGLE TIME regardless of whether it was a totally static scene or filled with motion (in which case 9HD was unbearable to watch). And that was with 12.8 Mbps MPEG-2 HD for 9HD and only 8 Mbps H.264 HD for Foxtel.

And your comparison of OneHD vs FoxSports HD is also laughable given that Fox Sports HD channels have an average bitrate of 11 Mbps using far superior H.264 whereas OneHD has a similar average using far less efficient MPEG-2! The peak bitrate of Fox Sports HD gets close to 20 Mbps which OneHD can't even get close to.

I can take still images 24/7 of any Foxtel HD sports channel compared with FTA and the quality will easily surpass any of the crap served up by the encoders of OneHD, 9HD, 7HD, GEM, 7mate, SBSHD, ABCNews24 etc.

I'll glady post more comparison images of Foxtel Delhi HD channels compared to OneHD next week if you continue to post such nonsense. All 6 Delhi HD channels have an average bitrate of 8 Mbps and they will all look much better than the single OneHD channel.

[Steve C]

So there is only 20-30 HD cameras and gear in the country to film anything at any given time?

The FTA networks requirements when it comes to HD source material are amazingly stringent...

Such a shame the end product the networks deliver, doesn't maintain the quality that's demanded of their HD providers.

Tonight's premieres on 7Mate - Warehouse 13 and Caprica, should be a pretty good indicator of just what quality 7 is prepared to broadcast...

I'd expect that these two shows (and maybe the repeat of "The Event" as well) should be a 'showcase' of exactly the sort of "pristine High Definition" images that their promotions have been trumpeting.

If they aren't, it won't bode well for any future improvement in the HD quality of 7Mate as far as I can see. It'd be nice to have them prove otherwise...

[davmel]

I disagree, I've watched Tennis on Fox Sports HD recently and compared it to what 9HD was showing and this is what I noticed:

Yep, I made comparison shots and 9HD coverage was crap:

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1563247

[Wags69]

The FTA networks requirements when it comes to HD source material are amazingly stringent...

Such a shame the end product the networks deliver, doesn't maintain the quality that's demanded of their HD providers.

Tonight's premieres on 7Mate - Warehouse 13 and Caprica, should be a pretty good indicator of just what quality 7 is prepared to broadcast...

I'd expect that these two shows (and maybe the repeat of "The Event" as well) should be a 'showcase' of exactly the sort of "pristine High Definition" images that their promotions have been trumpeting.

If they aren't, it won't bode well for any future improvement in the HD quality of 7Mate as far as I can see. It'd be nice to have them prove otherwise...

Yes, it would be nice to have them prove otherwise, but going by the the ad's they have been running, it'll probably be pretty average.

Shame, because as you say, these shows should be their "showcase".

[davmel]

Tonight's premieres on 7Mate - Warehouse 13 and Caprica, should be a pretty good indicator of just what quality 7 is prepared to broadcast...

Not at all. Things will only improve when Seven upgrades their playout system to show native HD which it can't do at present (only upscaled SD on 7mate). Seven can only show HD on 7mate if they do a simulcast with 7SD for now, so you're going to be very disappointed if you think something shown tonight will be native HD!

If you want to watch scifi in HD then don't bother with FTA and download the latest SGU season premiere ep from the usual sources.

[davmel]

I've noticed tonight that Seven has significantly pushed up the bitrate of their main SD channel at the expense of 7mate. 7SD is currently averaging 6.6 Mbps which is very high for an SD channel whereas 7mate is only a pathetic 10.4 Mbps which is probably the lowest that Seven's HD video stream has been ever since they upgraded from 576p.

Seven obviously realises that with no ability to show native HD on 7mate at the moment that there is no point having a reasonable bitrate on 7mate.

[betty boop]

You and I can agree on that, but others (including the commercial owners) want to show 3 channels. In fact, Seven has a long, loud track record of demanding multichannelling. Quelle surprise?

Insofar as they are too embarrassed to even mention the closure of 7HD, I agree with you.

Insofar as they are incorrectly promoting "HD" on the TV guides (Fairfax papers, at any rate), I agree with you.

But in theory -- and only in theory, mind you -- there is nothing wrong with the concept of 7mate as long as it is full of unique or timeshifted HD (either forward or backward timeshift). And from a public policy perspective, the settings are in place for just that. 7mate has to be legally transmitted in HD, and it will be forced to average 3 hours a day native HD sooner or later. Commercial imperatives, the invisible hand of capitalism (etc) will be in charge until then, and the necessary upgrades will have to take place when Seven feels like paying for it. It's "free" to view, remember.

CK.

Ck, think your last couple of posts here have captured sentiment of quite a few here I think.

Don't think anyone here wanting anymore that what has been done previously. Ie some real HD even their minimum qouta would be fine and I too would love to see them revert to the dd5.1 sound track they used to offer much to add to the enjoyment of watching a movie or sport for that matter.

Hopefully some sense does prevail, have no probes at all with 7mate, just do hope some sense prevails and they at the very least give us the HD supported with decent audio as once used to prior to the move to 7mate. One can only hope...

[rennmaxbeta]

I've noticed tonight that Seven has significantly pushed up the bitrate of their main SD channel at the expense of 7mate. 7SD is currently averaging 6.6 Mbps which is very high for an SD channel whereas 7mate is only a pathetic 10.4 Mbps which is probably the lowest that Seven's HD video stream has been ever since they upgraded from 576p.

Nine and GEM are in the same situation.

[betty boop]

Have you not been watching the Bond films on 7HD the last few months? All of them were in native HD, going back to Connery.

Some of the most interesting HD I've seen on FTA or Foxtel has been the old films. The original TV transfers just made them look like rubbish but the new transfers give a strange modern feel to them. It's bizarre and entertaining.

~

Ck, tonights bond film being shown on 7 in sd is exact illustration of where it has all gone wrong. So now unlike the rest of the bond series they've been showing on their 7 HD channel, exactly as you described in glorious HD and to great result. Now we have it on the 7 sd channel instead. And on 7 mate their HD channel ? we have instead some cr@piola "the event" serial hog wash which isn't in HD anyways

Where is the sense in what they are doing

[Steve C]

Hopefully some sense does prevail, have no probes at all with 7mate, just do hope some sense prevails and they at the very least give us the HD supported with decent audio as once used to prior to the move to 7mate. One can only hope...

Warehouse 13 and Caprica were 25i (what the!!) @ 13Mbps with AC3 stereo, so not much reassurance to be had there...

It definitely looked like they were sourced from HD material - just they didn't look or sound 'HD' (i.e. quite soft with heavy artifacting in any areas with motion) in the way 7 processed them for putting to air.

The fact that the shut off of analogue is being held by some people as some sort of 'redeemer' of the way HD is currently being broadcast on FTA networks is starting to take on the aroma of "the great white hope", that may end up being the "forlorn hope" if the networks decide that we as viewers have been brainwashed into accepting their offerings as "good enough"...

Like you; I'd love to have the FTA networks move to providing HD in ways that I have seen it in the past (and still do when watching HD I've shot myself), but my sense of hope is taking one massive beating with what's been happening lately.

[davmel]

Nine and GEM are in the same situation.

Not at all. Unlike Seven network, Nine hasn't messed around with their bitrate with the introduction of GEM. 9SD is still an average of 5.6 Mbps and GEM is 12.6 Mbps so they haven't given any preference towards their main SD channel.

[nanci1]

Is 7mate available to view now and theres anything on that channel? im not home yet to be able to watch it. But 7mate said something (comming soon...) on a msg screen , But what is it about ?

[rennmaxbeta]

Not at all. Unlike Seven network, Nine hasn't messed around with their bitrate with the introduction of GEM. 9SD is still an average of 5.6 Mbps and GEM is 12.6 Mbps so they haven't given any preference towards their main SD channel.

What I meant was, they are about the same in bitrate.

[MLXXX]

In the final analysis; the things that really piddle me off with the 7Mate (and GEM updates) are: the need to constantly rescan every time these knuckle-heads decide to adjust their service/signal

This is a problem only with some tuners. For example, my very old DGTEC HD set top box, my old Topfield standard definition PVR, and my 3 year old Sony SXRD TV, all simply display the new stream names without any need for rescanning.

[With the Toppy, it doesn't change the name of the stream until that stream is first selected for viewing, so for example 99 only became listed on the menu as GO after 99 had been selected for viewing. It can't display high definition video, but can record it.].

On my equipment, when GO! came along, and News24, these new names appeared automatically. Similarly now with GEM and 7mate.

After all, each broadcaster's RF centre frequency has remained unchanged; it is only the constituent video and audio streams in the multiplex that from time to time are reorganised/relabelled.

If a digital tuner has trouble with picking up newly organised streams and labels, I suggest there is something wrong in the programing of the tuner.

I agree, the gov. of the day was happy to let companies sell surplus SD equipment to an unsuspecting public in full knowledge that the purchasers would have to go out and buy again when HD came in (and knowing, of course, that HD broadcasting was in the pipeline). That is the disappointing aspect of digital roll-out for me.

It is sometimes forgotten that when HD set top boxes first became available in Australia they cost around $600. At that time, very few people had TVs capable of accepting 1080i. It was logical in that era that people would want to purchase the much cheaper standard definition STB's. A government would have been brave indeed to prohibit the sale of standard definition set top boxes.

Early PVRs were standard definition. Twin tuner high definition PVRs, when they eventually emerged, carried a significant price premium, and tended to suffer from technical glitches.

Yep, I made comparison shots and 9HD coverage was crap:

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1563247

Yep the Foxtel MPEG-4 AVC beats 9HD hands down in those captures.

[thorate]

Ck, tonights bond film being shown on 7 in sd is exact illustration of where it has all gone wrong. So now unlike the rest of the bond series they've been showing on their 7 HD channel, exactly as you described in glorious HD and to great result. Now we have it on the 7 sd channel instead. And on 7 mate their HD channel ? we have instead some cr@piola "the event" serial hog wash which isn't in HD anyways

Where is the sense in what they are doing

There is no sense to what they're doing.

$even were crap and still are crap - and continually insult viewers.

One (of the many) annoying things they do is go to very loud commerials whilst a character is still speaking. And not content with not showing credits, some movies finish just before even "The End" is shown.

[ckent]

Complete utter BS. Go and have a look at all the static and motion still shots I posted comparing 9HD with Vancouver Olympics Foxtel coverage

Where are these Olympics comparisons? I only saw the tennis comparisons and since Nine was using SD upscaled footage, we'd be talking about something else.

Yep sure, have a go at Nine for using SD footage when HD was clearly available. But when it's HD vs HD, you get a bit more detail on FTA but you get no blocking or ringing on Foxtel.

I'll glady post more comparison images of Foxtel Delhi HD channels compared to OneHD next week if you continue to post such nonsense. All 6 Delhi HD channels have an average bitrate of 8 Mbps and they will all look much better than the single OneHD channel.

Yep let's do this :-)

I don't have access to Foxtel HD capturing so I look forward to seeing on PC what I see on TVs.

CK.

[ckent]

Ck, tonights bond film being shown on 7 in sd is exact illustration of where it has all gone wrong. So now unlike the rest of the bond series they've been showing on their 7 HD channel, exactly as you described in glorious HD and to great result. Now we have it on the 7 sd channel instead. And on 7 mate their HD channel ? we have instead some cr@piola "the event" serial hog wash which isn't in HD anyways

Where is the sense in what they are doing

I know. And even though the exact same tape is being used for the Bond films, don't they look like so much rubbish on 7TWO?

I can't believe how much different they look when downscaled to SD, plus a lot of Foxtel-like softening to reduce the bitrate further.

Before the days of Blu-Ray, the biggest trend was "superbit DVDs", which showed like ABC1 what you can do with a good bitrate. This carried the mantle from LaserDisc, probably? Haha!

[ckent]

Yep the Foxtel MPEG-4 AVC beats 9HD hands down in those captures.

Scroll down and you'll see agreement break out, that these caps are comparing apples and oranges, ie, upscaled SD versus HD.

Fair enough, I agree with the final assessment, but for a different reason.

[davmel]

Where are these Olympics comparisons? I only saw the tennis comparisons and since Nine was using SD upscaled footage, we'd be talking about something else.

Olympics: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1508217

Yep sure, have a go at Nine for using SD footage when HD was clearly available. But when it's HD vs HD, you get a bit more detail on FTA but you get no blocking or ringing on Foxtel.

And Nine was using HD source for that Tennis (you couldn't possibly get that level of detail from SD source).

[ckent]

Olympics: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1508217

Ah yep that one's definitely better on Foxtel. OK I guess it's up to me to come up with counter-examples somehow next week. From memory, in Vancouver it was where you had a lot of white snow and no motion, and the Foxtel MPEG-4 just smoothed it out to nothing. It's probably more the VBR causing this than anything else like the codec itself.

And Nine was using HD source for that Tennis (you couldn't possibly get that level of detail from SD source).

Nah, look at that score graphic. It's patently SD. Granted, it's very good SD ... as you'd expect from an HD downscale? :-)

[davmel]

From memory, in Vancouver it was where you had a lot of white snow and no motion, and the Foxtel MPEG-4 just smoothed it out to nothing. It's probably more the VBR causing this than anything else like the codec itself.

I think you're confusing snow flakes with the macroblocks of MPEG-2 which give the fake impression of detail when it doesn't exist!

Oh, and here is another winter olympics comparison: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1508365

Edited October 1, 2010 by davmel

[ckent]

I think you're confusing snow flakes with the macroblocks of MPEG-2 which give the fake impression of detail when it doesn't exist!

Oh, and here is another winter olympics comparison: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1508365

Hmm whereas my contention is that the flat areas on the Foxtel example are given that impression when they're not really flat.

But I grant you that on the stills, the flat areas only show macroblocks. That means I'll have to put together an animation next week to show how they form some visible detail.

Unfortunately we don't have the uncompressed originals ...

CK.

Edited October 1, 2010 by ckent

[digitalj]

ok, just got a DVB-T Stick for my PC and to my shock horror, 7mate on PRIME is 10.27Mbps