Bt At Kajak

[ozcal]

"My experience with various audio events is that people vary a great deal in their perceptions. There are those who claim toprob hear minor things who at the same time fail to hear obnoxious problems . I have learnt to trust my own ears, but even there the goal posts do shift. After adding bass traps to my system, in the bass area I'm fussier than ever. I actually can't bear to listen to my own system without the traps now."

Strongly agree Paul in as much as we all listen for different things and so it becomes easy to understand why so many very different systems are well regarded.

Edited February 20, 2011 by ozcal

[betty boop]

~

Still, I keep an open mind. Kajak's system would have to do quite a few things right to get the responses I've heard about. I avoid making too many assumptions about how it sounds, since just as my system is probably like nothing he has heard, his could also be very different to what I have heard. It's a pity we are all separated by distance. I haven't written off the possibility that I could learn some new tricks from Mario. The learning process and the journey is half the fun. And as I keep saying, audio is a smorgasbord, not a competition. It could be that Mario has the seafood section, but my system might be butter chicken! Is seafood better than butter chicken? You can't even answer that question in the absolute sense.

~

thats a healthy place to be I think. one thing I have learnt over the years, especially with gtg's that no matter what kind of system room, hosts likes dislikes theres always been some take away from there. always something to learn. its no different be it photography, art, music food etc.

especially in a skilled knowledgeable persons hand even the most humble of cameras they can can put out some amazing pictures. an artist with some brush strokes a work of art. a master cook with some simple ingredients somethign delicious. in the same way give the two photographers the same setting and equipment, two cooks same ingredients, two artists the same canvas brush and paint and look on in amazement the different results...

while stuck within the constraints of the web we shouldnt be so quick to judge...even condemn...peoples rooms, systems, approach. sure we can make the odd comment, or come to some overall opinion. but that would be the extent of it. we really dont know till experience for ourself or trully understand what persons approach about. as I suggested usually some gems to be found everywhere...if you dig deep enough

[myrantz]

You are therefore vulnerable to being misled.

Is that an assumption that I'm stupid/gullible or an inference Kajak did something he's not supposed to do, or both? I can say No on both counts...

[Spearmint]

Basically from Kajak's point of view, if you want to hear differences in power cables.. You have to do a lot of things...

1/ No DVD players (and not just any CD player)

2/ speakers must be placed properly and given space to breath

3/ Good quality music

Not sure if there's any more. And that's when people starts to behave irrationally as they get defensive on gear, setups etc... And then questions the motivations and usefulness of anything and everything....

What a load of rubbish!

So what you're implying is that changing power cables is only suited to a few components/systems?

[ozcal]

Spearmint , I think what is being suggested is that the system has to be transparent enough to show up differences and that differences are more apparent on good recordings.

For me this doesn't mean that the system has to be expensive just transparent.

[Paul Spencer]

Is that an assumption that I'm stupid/gullible or an inference Kajak did something he's not supposed to do, or both? I can say No on both counts...

Treb, it is neither. I'm referring to limits that all of us are subject to. I'm not singling you or Kajak out as stupid/gullible, nor am I saying you've done something wrong. Let's take a bit more context here with what I said:

So while I don't deny that you probably heard things that are real in the test at the start, it's not too useful where you don't know the why. That puts you in a position where you have nothing solid on which to hang your conclusions. You are therefore vulnerable to being misled.

You conducted your demo to find out if there was a difference that could be heard. Your answer was an emphatic yes. Unlike the others, I don't have much of a problem with only doing 5 trials, from your description it sounds like you did hear differences, they seem clear enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you would have scored 10 out of 10, perhaps a group would with that particular setup.

But here is the issue that I can see. We don't know why. We don't know the cause. As such, the test is vulnerable to being thrown off by uncontrolled variables. This is why in a true blind test, scientific controls are used to make every effort to eliminate any uncontrolled variables which will skew the results and give a false conclusion. Done this way, a test can apply broadly to systems which share certain aspects and be repeated by others with similar results. That isn't likely to be achieved without being conducted by those with some kind of professional training. I'm not qualified in that regard, but I know enough to realise how easily all of us can be misled. It's not about being gullible or stupid, it's a simple acknowledgement of normal human limitations. Our hearing capacity is subject to limits. Our ears are good at picking up some things, not others.

So I hope that you realise by now that there is no attack on your intelligence. Set up a demo with a misleading but hidden issue and I could be sitting there next to you getting misled in just the same way. It's simply a matter of human limits.

I know that you have asked the question why, how can we measure it etc. I'm too far away to help with that, and I don't want to speculate. This whole test has been a little over-analysed by now, but the discussion along the way has been engaging and lively and an opportunity for people to reconsider their beliefs.

One more thing. I'm on about 40 or so forums with thousands of posts, but I have never made one single insult either direct or implied. There is nothing that can be said on a public forum that will get an insult back from me. If someone were crazy enough and wanted to investigate, they could read every single post I have made in any forum and not find one single insult. If I'm feeling a bit edgy when posting, I read back over my post to check I'm not crossing that line. Sometimes, it helps to not post right away. The next day, something that annoyed you can seem trivial.

I've come across some arrogant, obnoxious, blunt and abrasive people on forums and received my fair share of insults, never with retaliation. So Treb, you can be pretty sure that with someone like yourself who tends to remain courteous under fire, it's not likely I'm going to be even tempted to insult you. How about the benefit of the doubt?

ozmillsy,

A few peace makers do come in handy in a crazy thread like this

[BladeRnR]

"P.S The picture was originally shown in a post to ask "How could a 10-year old own such a beautiful system" to mock one of my previous posts. Erroneously I might add. He apologised and that was that. "

That isn't actually correct Blade.

The picture was initially posted by Mario enquiring if it was you system.You made a rarther purile (imho) comment which I thought was directed at another forum member and that is why I posred the 10 yr old thing.

Further reading revealed that you were talking about Tom Cruise and not a forum member , hence the appology

I obviously missed that post. The first time I saw my Pic was in your reply *shrugs*.

I forgot you have to Cross your T's and Dot your I's here

[myrantz]

What a load of rubbish!

So what you're implying is that changing power cables is only suited to a few components/systems?

I imply nothing, hence it's not rubbish. May suit, may not suit. Only way is to try.

Don't really know how power cables work, but I don't think changing power cables will mean it'd automatically "improve" the audio. Doesn't seem universal, not on the accounts here so far.

Spearmint , I think what is being suggested is that the system has to be transparent enough to show up differences and that differences are more apparent on good recordings.

For me this doesn't mean that the system has to be expensive just transparent.

Yeah. No mention of expense.. Expensive does not imply it's good..

[Tweet]

A D.I.Y Oblate Spheroid Waveguide for those that might be interested.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1110/obla..._waveguides.htm

C.M

[gone_bush]

I imply nothing, hence it's not rubbish. May suit, may not suit. Only way is to try.

Don't really know how power cables work, but I don't think changing power cables will mean it'd automatically "improve" the audio. Doesn't seem universal, not on the accounts here so far.

Yeah. No mention of expense.. Expensive does not imply it's good..

I wonder if anyone can tell me how many times the highlighted phrase, or similar words, has been used in this thread.

And, as I haven't been reading every post (maybe 1% of them, if that), can someone please tell me what the consensus opinion is?

[SDL]

I am no longer getting involved in this discussion because it has all been said I feel. But I have been reading and for me the last two posts by Paul have stated everything I think is the issue in terms of where I sit. Well written Paul.

Edited February 20, 2011 by SDL

[Paul Spencer]

I wonder if anyone can tell me how many times the highlighted phrase, or similar words, has been used in this thread.

And, as I haven't been reading every post (maybe 1% of them, if that), can someone please tell me what the consensus opinion is?

Most of us weren't there. Seems those that were there all agree on the difference. Let's assume it's real and as described. Will the same thing happen in a different system? Does that system have to be of a certain quality? Or are the differences the result of some kind of quirk or flaw somewhere in the setup? Nobody knows. General consensus is that while the reported differences seem genuine enough, the testing methodology can't be considered a proper blind test, but instead it was a quick demo in which Treblid didn't know what he was hearing. Lots of debating in the middle about if it's a blind test or not, if DVD players can make music or not, if measurements are worth doing and if they reveal what is going on, if setting up a system is about science or art. Just about everyone getting frustrated with Treb over his creative logic and Mario occasionally throwing in a few grenades here and there. The rest of us toss those grenades back out the window while his mates say "well, he didn't mean it, he's a great bloke with an amazing system really! Don't be too hard on the ol' chap that he doesn't know it's not polite to throw exploding objects!" I think that mostly sums up the plot so far

One more thing. If you want to try it at home, it isn't too expensive. A bit of that acrolink mains cable with some Clipsal connectors won't hurt too much ... as long as you don't burn your house down.

[Drizt]

Most of us weren't there. Seems those that were there all agree on the difference. Let's assume it's real and as described. Will the same thing happen in a different system? Does that system have to be of a certain quality? Or are the differences the result of some kind of quirk or flaw somewhere in the setup? Nobody knows. General consensus is that while the reported differences seem genuine enough, the testing methodology can't be considered a proper blind test, but instead it was a quick demo in which Treblid didn't know what he was hearing. Lots of debating in the middle about if it's a blind test or not, if DVD players can make music or not, if measurements are worth doing and if they reveal what is going on, if setting up a system is about science or art. Just about everyone getting frustrated with Treb over his creative logic and Mario occasionally throwing in a few grenades here and there. The rest of us toss those grenades back out the window while his mates say "well, he didn't mean it, he's a great bloke with an amazing system really! Don't be too hard on the ol' chap that he doesn't know it's not polite to throw exploding objects!" I think that mostly sums up the plot so far

One more thing. If you want to try it at home, it isn't too expensive. A bit of that acrolink mains cable with some Clipsal connectors won't hurt too much ... as long as you don't burn your house down.

lol, that was actually quite accurate

[betty boop]

consensus of whom ? the tiny very vocal minority that tend to want to shove their opinion on things down the collective forum ? or consensus of the non vocal majority ? you'll never know what that is....

why is consensus important in any case ? we going to start another poll ? we cant think for our selves ? and if one thing I know and this thread has supported there is no such thing as consensus in audio.

now I know some will think threads like this can be used as a battle ground to try belt some consensus through people. it doesnt work like that.

we tend to think for our selves, seeing and hearing is believing and we all arent sheep. and I know I for one will keep an open mind and come to my own conclusions using my own means....

[Paul Spencer]

He wants to skip to the back of the book and read the ending without following all the bits in the middle

[myrantz]

General consensus is that while the reported differences seem genuine enough, the testing methodology can't be considered a proper blind test, but instead it was a quick demo in which Treblid didn't know what he was hearing.

Despite the differences being obvious to 3 people (2 + 1); because it is not a blind test, the differences are dismissed... Because humans are so easily influenced by external forces, the differences are dismissed... I didn't know what I was hearing..

Lots of debating in the middle about if it's a blind test or not, if DVD players can make music or not, if measurements are worth doing and if they reveal what is going on, if setting up a system is about science or art. Just about everyone getting frustrated with Treb over his creative logic

Nobody cared about this thread - 36 out of 81865 members. That's 0.044%. That is hardly considered just about everyone.

Talk about creative logic? How about sensationalism?

and Mario occasionally throwing in a few grenades here and there. The rest of us toss those grenades back out the window while his mates say "well, he didn't mean it, he's a great bloke with an amazing system really! Don't be too hard on the ol' chap that he doesn't know it's not polite to throw exploding objects!" I think that mostly sums up the plot so far

Comments (some a lot colourful than others) were given considered, and then tons of insults were thrown here and about. And that is changed to grenades were thrown and tossed back out the window... Wow.... I talked about in denial before, this is delusional... :lol:

[betty boop]

there is no ending...its a journey...

[MLXXX]

Nobody cared about this thread - 36 out of 81865 members. That's 0.044%. That is hardly considered just about everyone.

Well there are about 6.9b human beings currently, so that would make it just 0.000 000 52%.

The reference to "everyone", dear Treblid, was obviously in relation to those who participated in the thread.

Whether your continual misconstruction of posts is done knowingly, or just recklessly, is unclear to me. But it indirectly leads to threads swelling to abnormally high post counts.

[myrantz]

there is no ending...its a journey...

+1.. Do hope nobody get the impression I am forcing my opinion down on everyone... Just in case people get confused, try it, don't try it, really up to you... in my first post:

6/ This is _not to prove_ to the people out there (sic) that audiophile cables are right or wrong. _You be the judge yourself_..

For people with a short memory... Talk on the blind test itself actually only made up 1/3 of the first post.. Everything else (>2/3) is more or less an experience and to tell people what to look for... That part actually don't actually require at BT, even when they invalidate the BT, the other 2/3 is still true from my perspective...

Do not be misled by creative sensationalism...

[myrantz]

Well there are about 6.9b human beings currently, so that would make it just 0.000 000 52%.

See, that is hardly everyone is it.. In the great scheme of things (with so much turmoil in the middle east, and economies in trouble), power cables is hardly worth an issue is it?

The reference to "everyone", dear Treblid, was obviously in relation to those who participated in the thread.

And that's why references are important!!!! It's obvious to you and not obvious to me. Using his reference, it's everyone, using mine it's 0.044 (or there abouts), and using yours it's even lower. See the problem now? No you don't, because you like to put your points across. How's your MBL doing? I'm not sure if there is another track.. Sounds just like you're right there, is it not?

Whether your continual misconstruction of posts is done knowingly, or just recklessly, is unclear to me. But it indirectly leads to threads swelling to abnormally high post counts.

Misconstruion? Everything is cached on google.. This is part of history now.. The future will judge....

[MLXXX]

For people with a short memory... Talk on the blind test itself actually only made up 1/3 of the first post.. Everything else (>2/3) is more or less an experience and to tell people what to look for... That part actually don't actually require at BT, even when they invalidate the BT, the other 2/3 is still true from my perspective...

Do not be misled by creative sensationalism...

Treblid,

paulspencer was not providing a summary of post #1, but responding to post #1035.

As I see the situation, you are continually displaying a lack of focus, and lack of comprehension. I suggest you spend more time in seeking to understand posts, before attempting to respond to them. Otherwise the thread becomes centred on your misreadings of posts. This is unfair to other forum members. You are "hogging the forum" with barely considered posts, and ill-founded criticisms of others. For example, paulspencer's summary was well balanced and fair, but you misread it, and fired off ill-conceived remarks.

Please slow down and provide less quantity, and more quality. In the long run you will get greater satisfaction, and your contributions will be better appreciated. I think if you go back and re-read some of your posts, you will see what I'm getting at. Cheers.

[betty boop]

+1.. Do hope nobody get the impression I am forcing my opinion down on everyone... Just in case people get confused, try it, don't try it, really up to you... in my first post:

For people with a short memory... Talk on the blind test itself actually only made up 1/3 of the first post.. Everything else (>2/3) is more or less an experience and to tell people what to look for... That part actually don't actually require at BT, even when they invalidate the BT, the other 2/3 is still true from my perspective...

Do not be misled by creative sensationalism...

dont worry treb, I didnt ! as I am sure plenty others didnt either

its your experience and you own it. Don't let others devalue it, misconstrue it . they werent there. you were there, you know what happened, you know whats true value to you. If people want to completely dismiss it, thats there prerogative, there loss. Yourself your obviously wiser from it, something you enjoyed and learnt from and nothing stopping you to continue to explore further, to expand your knowledge learning and experience

[mello yello]

there is no ending...its a journey...

in the beginning there was ...

and in the end it always was a

[myrantz]

Treblid,

paulspencer was not providing a summary of post #1, but responding to post #1035.

That post is about consensus opinion. PaulSpencer gave his side of the argument, it's not a consensus (see poll result)..

That was more a polite nudge for people to get their perspectives right, seasoned with a bit of sarcasm?

Like it has to pass BT to be real, to reach a consensus opinion to be real..

In other words, he don't care and wonder what the fuss is all about.

As I see the situation, you are continually displaying a lack of focus, and lack of comprehension.

I hope I got the intent right, because you know, I really do lack focus and comprehension ...

[mello yello]

...sorry ...every time I see Journey I think of Tommy Emmanuel

...I just wanted to share that random thought, and some great Aussie musical masterpieces

seeing we are all on the same page when it comes to wanting the best