Pvr For Mother (no Networking)

[DrP]

2) Series record (of course there will be spot issues, esp. early) but a Freeview device will no doubt be able to catch the fact that next weeks episode of House has been moved to 9:30

Only if the CRID remains the same as when you set up the 'series' recording.

3) Weed out repeats (yes the networks are dodgy on this, but at least if a show is marked R in the EIT it won't get recorded.

But what if its a re-run of an earlier series of the show and you want to watch it again?

4) Handle overruns. Again the data is yet to be 100% but it doesn't really need to be. Overruns more than say 15 minutes are pretty rare prime time so padding covers that anyway.

There's a lot of stuff outside of prime time that slips way outside the schedule and if the accurate recording features doesn't work as advertised there's going to be a lot of unhappy people. Anyway, isn't this accurate recording supposed to do away with excessively large padding? Heck if one has to pad 15 minutes to record just in case, then why bother with the freeview EPG at all. Just keep doing what ever it is you are doing now. If the networks would stop screwing around and stick to their published schedule this entire layer of crap could be removed and everyone would be happy. If Foxtel can transmit guide data 12 hours before the event to within 1 minutes accuracy then the FTAs can sure as hell do it to 5 minutes. This 'live programming ran over time' is a complete BS excuse.

[5) Be able to record 2 (or more) things at once. If three shows clash I'd expect most households would say its a pity the networks aired thee good things at once. They won't be looking at doing mathematical gymnastics to figure out if some timer combination might have worked.

Multiple recordings in no way requires freeview, a freeview PVR, nor the freeview EPG.

Where all the fuss seems to be is in the to the minute accuracy that negates the need for padding.

Which at this point simply can't work. You last time frame has run out. How far do you want to extend it this time? September?

Yes Freeview have said their system should be able to do this and yes it so far seems to be pretty dodgy. But that is what they are presumably working at. No one knows (can say) what the Freeview hardware spec is but perhaps it includes the provision of a single dedicate SD tuner for scanning the EIT. Might add $15 to the cost of a PVR?

It does not require an additional tuner to scan the EIT on all channels.... and that'd be an amazingly bizarre thing to require anyway.

I suppose I'm saying that I don't see this colossal failure that Freeview are meant to have perpetrated.

In that it doesn't work?

Creating what is in effect a real time system is going to have issues. Its largely a yet to be launched product (a PVR that requires no padding) and what is on the market is a huge step up from what most people are used to (not everyone has spent the last decade with a PVR ).

The problem is that its nothing that hasn't been done elsewhere and is now working elsewhere. 'freeview' just seems to have gone about implementing the system in such a way that has pointed a shotgun on their foot and pulled the trigger.

Edited March 24, 2011 by DrP

[pgdownload]

Only if the CRID remains the same as when you set up the 'series' recording.

Yep, that needs to be sorted.

But what if its a re-run of an earlier series of the show and you want to watch it again?

On the PVR you select new eps only or any.

Heck if one has to pad 15 minutes to record just in case, then why bother with the freeview EPG at all.

That's sort of my point. Freeview is already of marginal value. A tri or quad tuner model would render it obsolete.

This 'live programming ran over time' is a complete BS excuse.

99% of the time sure. The networks know what is going to air to the second. However the dificulty seems to be connecting whatever system has this info with the general broadcast.

Which at this point simply can't work. You last time frame has run out. How far do you want to extend it this time? September?

As asked, only July if that's ok?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

On the PVR you select new eps only or any.

Wonderful! So you'll have a choice of either only recording episodes that are deemed to not be a repeats (I can see how accurate this won't be) or everything even if you don't want to see it. I bet Foxtel et al are having a jolly good laugh over this supposed method of operation.

As asked, only July if that's ok?

Noted. My pigs are prepped and ready for launch.

[pgdownload]

Wonderful! So you'll have a choice of either only recording episodes that are deemed to not be a repeats (I can see how accurate this won't be) or everything even if you don't want to see it. I bet Foxtel et al are having a jolly good laugh over this supposed method of operation.

Agree its decidedly hit or miss. However I was only listing a some of the improvements Freeview (& PVRs) bring to the average consumer. So while there will be quite a lot of repeats labelled as new (accidents do happen ) there's almost never a new episode labelled as a repeat (funny that ) - So a lay user will get some repeats popping up (and just delete them) but in general they can give repeats a miss if they want (automatically)

Noted. My pigs are prepped and ready for launch.

BIG PIG CRID noted (Try say that once fast )

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Paul55]

Wonderful! So you'll have a choice of either only recording episodes that are deemed to not be a repeats (I can see how accurate this won't be) or everything even if you don't want to see it. I bet Foxtel et al are having a jolly good laugh over this supposed method of operation.

I share your distrust of Freeview, but don't understand what you're getting at here.

What selection parameters are you suggesting? If it's the Foxtel way of 'record this series', this has the weakness of not automatically picking up the 'next' series of the show. e.g. I had Foxtel record season 5 of Dexter, but as far as I know, I'll also need to tell it to record season 6.

With the IceTV system of using the "all new episodes" parameter, season 6 would be recorded automatically whenever it came on. Both systems would need appropriate flags to work.

[prl]

I'm still wondering when some of the better-known brands might be introducing a Freeview EPG PVR. Have any been seen in the wild, apart from MagicTV?

Beyonwiz implied they would have one in 2010. No sign of it yet. What's the rumour mill saying about, say, Topfield or Strong?

Until there are good PVRs available that use the Freeview EPG, discussion of its benefits remains a bit academic.

[prl]

...

With the IceTV system of using the "all new episodes" parameter, season 6 would be recorded automatically whenever it came on. Both systems would need appropriate flags to work.

What I would find handy in IceTV (or any similar service) would be a "record repeats I haven't recorded before" setting. However, that would mean having a much bigger per-user database than what I suspect IceTV has.

[DrP]

I share your distrust of Freeview, but don't understand what you're getting at here.

What selection parameters are you suggesting? If it's the Foxtel way of 'record this series', this has the weakness of not automatically picking up the 'next' series of the show. e.g. I had Foxtel record season 5 of Dexter, but as far as I know, I'll also need to tell it to record season 6.

With the IceTV system of using the "all new episodes" parameter, season 6 would be recorded automatically whenever it came on. Both systems would need appropriate flags to work.

The only reason you would need to tell it to record season 6 is because of the large break between the two that normally happens. When the episodes of a series that cross season boundaries are run without a gap Foxtel's series link records them as you'd expect.

What I'm getting at is, from my observations of the transmission, if you set your freeview PVR to 'series record' Family guy on 7mate and the show happened to be on series 4 at the time it would record up to the end of series 4 and then stop, even if series 5 was broadcast in the same time slot next week. Freeview intends to work around repeats by having the PVR store the CRID of episodes it has seen, for a period of time. Similiarly a series CRID is not required to be kept for all time, it is allowed to expire after a period of the CRID not appearing in the transmission.

Foxtel's series link is fairly smart in that a linked series points to the next event to record (which may be the next day, a few days away, the next week) while freeview's is currently fairly dumb in that it relies on the series part of the CRID to detect a program and will attempt to record anything (that isn't in the volatile already recorded cache) that has that series CRID even if its not the next episode in the season line you are watching.

Even if Freeview updates their guide and applet to forward link or more closely operate the way Foxtel does it requires the freeview applet to run in order to update. Essentially the freeview EPG applet would have to be automatically periodically launched by the PVR in order to update its recording schedule. Imagine the person that goes away for a week thinking they've left their freeview PVR lined up ready to go only to find out that things changed and since they weren't browsing the freeview guide their PVR didn't notice the recording changes.

Edited March 24, 2011 by DrP

[DrP]

What I would find handy in IceTV (or any similar service) would be a "record repeats I haven't recorded before" setting. However, that would mean having a much bigger per-user database than what I suspect IceTV has.

This feature is far better implemented on the recorder end.

[pgdownload]

Two separate questions:

Is a broadcast shows CRID accessible without opening the Freeview Applet? (i.e live)

Is a shows CRID included in the the EIT broadcast? (i.e. via the standard EPG?)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

Is a broadcast shows CRID accessible without opening the Freeview Applet? (i.e live)

At present, no and I doubt it ever will be since the freeview guide is transmitted as a series of files that are accessed by an applet. Proof of this pudding is in the transmission itself whereby the file names have recently changed and the applet was updated to suit. Any background monitoring process in the receiver (ie, not a transmitted applet) would similarly need to be updated which would mean mass firmware updates and that just isn't going to happen.

WIN does not transmit any freeguide (and I believe this is the case for different regional networks in other parts of the country too) information (apps or data) in many areas which shoots the concept background snooping of the freeview guide down in flames at the moment anyway.

Is a shows CRID included in the the EIT broadcast? (i.e. via the standard EPG?)

At present this is a mixed bag. Here ABC and 7 include the CRIDs for all events. SC10, WIN and SBS do not, they only (at least last time I checked) had CRIDs in the N&N for the 'accurate recording' feature.

Edited March 25, 2011 by DrP

[pgdownload]

Ta, Just looking at your concern that the freeview app needs to be running to handle schedule changes.

If a show is suddenly rescheduled (forward) or just inserted with no notification and the user doesn't switch to that channel then the Freeview system would fail. However as networks almost never do that (no point airing stuff that the people who want to watch it don't know its on). As happens 99% of the time a show is cancelled or bumped back in the evening. In this case a Freeview machine should look to assign a tuner to the relevant channel just before (the static) start time. It would then look to the now and next to realise the show is not airing now. If the whole EPG (with CRIDs) is available then it can reschedule then.

As a side, having a dedicated 3rd SD tuner is cheap and possible, but yes, probably much simpler to have the Freeview PVR periodically scan all channels while not recording anything.

Agree though that all that requires the data to be present and correct (from all networks) which is not yet the case. But it would seem that the current system is practical.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited March 25, 2011 by pgdownload

[DrP]

If a show is suddenly rescheduled (forward) or just inserted with no notification and the user doesn't switch to that channel then the Freeview system would fail. However as networks almost never do that (no point airing stuff that the people who want to watch it don't know its on). As happens 99% of the time a show is cancelled or bumped back in the evening. In this case a Freeview machine should look to assign a tuner to the relevant channel just before (the static) start time. It would then look to the now and next to realise the show is not airing now. If the whole EPG (with CRIDs) is available then it can reschedule then.

Example 1: The Big Bang Theory - GO!, EIT EPG start (now running, start time you name it): 07:48pm, actual observed start 07:38pm, Freeview EPG start: 08:00pm.

More examples can be provided.

In this example your suggestion of parking a tuner on the appropriate frequency 'just before' would have failed and this is precisely the point I am attempting to, but clearly failing in my efforts, get across. Programs starting early happens more than you seem to be willing to accept but I guess reality was dispensed with long ago when it comes to Freeview. From a freeview PVR's perspective early starts are even worse than late starts.

Of course the EIT and freeview EPGs need to actually agree with each other for there to be even a remote chance of 'accurate' record to work and it'd help if the freeview EPG actually showed what was actually going to screen.

Using the currently available EIT and freeview guide data the 'accurate recording' feature can't work without going to extreme lengths such as having a tuner in the PVR dedicated to switching amongst all the networks to observe the EIT EPG in the forlorn hope that it will be accurate enough to start (and end) a recording to actually record the desired program. Let's face it, no manufacturer is going to dedicate a tuner, demod, and occupy a stream channel on their receivers integrated decoder device just to try to cope with the vargaries of Australia's so far poorly implemented 'freeview guide'.

Reality (even if some preferred it went away) has already spoken on the subject anyway. Another forum member with a freeview guide PVR has already express annoyance that the so called 'accurate recording' was anything but accurate and required padding to record a nominated program.

Edited March 25, 2011 by DrP

[pgdownload]

I'm agreeing with you that the data is currently unacceptable (Freeview probably agrees with you too FTM). However tightening up the data is a pretty straight forward process its just going to take as long as it takes. So long as Freeview PVRs are only offering the same limited functionality its no biggy (even if some owners are confusing the Planned Freeview Feature suite with what PVR makers might actually offer - Freeview has minimum requirements but how sophisticated the PVR offerings are is up to manufacturers)

Let's face it, no manufacturer is going to dedicate a tuner, demod, and occupy a stream channel

The tuner needs only be SD and the dmodding of an EPG steam could be handled by the existing chips. No idea if that's even been considered, but as Freeview have created the Freeview spec (including hardware requirements) no reason they didn't include something like that.

But as I said, its not needed once the data is straightened out.

Another forum member with a freeview guide PVR has already express annoyance that the so called 'accurate recording' was anything but accurate and required padding to record a nominated program.

The system as currently offered can't provide it, you've said it, I've said it. Where we differ is that I imagine Freeview are extremely serious about getting the glitches down to a very few, you seem to think Freeview has come (and gone) and that what's been broadcast now is the best we can expect.

Ultimately if Freeview can't do any better than this then its a dead brand.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited March 25, 2011 by pgdownload

[DrP]

Ah, why bother. I've beat my head against a wall for long enough.

Edited March 25, 2011 by DrP

[dwids]

Have been through several different models with with my mid 70s neighbour, LG, Samsung, even a Tivo when he got bluffed (he doens't have Internet so that didn't go far) The shops must hate him. He now has a Sony that is easy to use but giving trouble...see other post.

The hardest part is to keep it all simple. He couldn't handle a Wiz or Toppy because he kept hitting buttons on the remote and tying himself in knots. Your Mother might be less curious or fat fingered. They pack a lot of functionality into PVRs these days. Someone needs to make a KISS model. The Wiz remotes are not the tidiest and are crowed with smaller butons than some others.

On the other hand, I use the EIT EPG on my Wiz DP-P2 and it works very well and updates quickly, even when it has been completely off. Menu colours and EPG contrast is good for eyesight challenged. The Wiz Lite is simpler but doesn't have a front display that the older folk seem to like because they can see a light come on to tell them it's recording.

I've come to similar conclusions. Disabled ICE-TV on my Wiz DP-P2 and thought the EIT EPG (or whatever it's called!) flowed in quite okay OTA. Yet when I looked carefully at the Remote and OSD - thru the eyes of a non-technical 70+ year old - it would probably be too much for them.

I'm not being patronising, but Foxtel make a Kids Remote for their boxes; if only BW made an equivalent one for their products. And/or have a config option to put the unit in PVR-only mode, so the other menus (inc the confusing media-file playback ones + networking) are disabled.

[pgdownload]

Ah, why bother. I've beat my head against a wall for long enough.

Yeah, it gets like that some times But I've genuinely tried to work through your issue with Freeview. There's currently a few Freeview boxes on the market that are basically just "normal" PVRs with some features removed. Freeview have made lots of grand statements about future model capabilities but so far pretty much no PVR has been released with any of them (aside the EPG applet).

You can argue that the new product is just as bad as the old one, however what's changed (for me) is that it no longer the networks trying to screw the viewers with their games. Now the networks are genuinely afraid if they can't get the Freeview system working well and widely adopted then they will loose revenue (and a lot of it)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited March 25, 2011 by pgdownload

[GregA1503560021]

the 'accurate recording' feature can't work without going to extreme lengths such as having a tuner in the PVR dedicated to switching amongst all the networks to observe the EIT EPG in the forlorn hope that it will be accurate enough to start (and end) a recording to actually record the desired program.

Just a side issue... but of the PVRs with "accurate recording" (which I presume is the marketing name for using CRID to attempt accuracy), a fairly large percentage would now have network connections, right?

Is using the Internet for show data becoming an option?

(Of course... if the channels wanted to show the right show times, they'd show the right show times... so whatever is stopping them from doing that is unlikely to change no matter how many tuners we have, or more sophisticated information, or use of internet for updates)

[prl]

Just a side issue... but of the PVRs with "accurate recording" (which I presume is the marketing name for using CRID to attempt accuracy), a fairly large percentage would now have network connections, right?

...

You speak of them as though they have actual existence. Brands and model numbers, please!

[pgdownload]

Of course... if the channels wanted to show the right show times, they'd show the right show times... so whatever is stopping them from doing that is unlikely to change no matter how many tuners we have, or more sophisticated information, or use of internet for updates)

For a long time channels have felt it to their (ratings) benefit not to show the correct start times. This has now changed IMO as in an effort to counter the increased use of ad skipping devices, the networks are now offering an "enhanced" EPG product that requires accurate data in order to be any use. Obviously they're still a way off getting this sorted.

However as has been alluded to, there really aren't any PVRs on the market that use this information so its yet to become a (consumer) issue.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Is using the Internet for show data becoming an option?

On this there are already a number of legal and illegal methods of loading EPG data onto a PVR for use. The largest being Tivo (Freeview) and ICETV (non-Freeview). But as you mention this data all comes from the networks originally one way or another, so you get no more actual accuracy than reading times and shows out of the Green Guide.

[GregA1503560021]

You speak of them as though they have actual existence. Brands and model numbers, please!

No! Someone else spoke of the feature.

I merely speak of it as if I don't know the latest devices.

[DrP]

While 3rd party TV guides generally only state the nominal times for broadcasts they usually contain far more information than the broadcast guides, in a format that is easily machine handled* and rather bizarrely at times are more accurate in terms of what programs (and / or episodes thereof) are going to screen than the broadcast guides. Something is horribly wrong in the Australian television broadcasting arena.

AFAIK there is only one freeview EPG based PVR on the market, and as expected it is not capable of 'accurate recording' because of the previously explained issues. I have it on reasonably good word that other manufacturers have freeview products ready to go (you are seeing some of these products in store now, just without the 'freeview' capable firmware) but are hesitant to let them loose with 'freeview' functionality due to the very same freeview EPG issues.

It has been suggested that the networks are looking at profit reductions if they can't get the freeview EPG features working as advertised. I've stated before that the freeview EPG features directly conflict with the broadcasters modus operandi (moving programs out of the nominal time slots for ratings advantage, moving programs out of the nominated time slot for advertising). Accurate recording, if properly implemented, essentially negates these manipulations and that, IMO, is likely to remove more from the bottom line than ad-skip prevention is likely to add. IMO its in the commercial networks interests to ensure that 'accurate recording' etc does not work accurately.

_{*when the freeview EPG was being formulated the broadcasters had in effect a blank sheet. They could have chosen to set up the freeview guide to have fields for the program title, the program episode, the season and episode number, additional information. Instead they decided to set up with a deliberately hobbled system where there is a field for the title and everything else has to be jammed into the description field resulting in wonders such as 'text description here (episode title) (year) (cast)' where the information in the brackets is in no particular order and a bracketted field can be left out altogther essentially making it impossible to reliably extract information - exactly as planned}

Edited April 4, 2011 by DrP

[pgdownload]

It has been suggested that the networks are looking at profit reductions if they can't get the freeview EPG features working as advertised. I've stated before that the freeview EPG features directly conflict with the broadcasters modus operandi (moving programs out of the nominal time slots for ratings advantage, moving programs out of the nominated time slot for advertising). Accurate recording, if properly implemented, essentially negates these manipulations and that, IMO, is likely to remove more from the bottom line than ad-skip prevention is likely to add. IMO its in the commercial networks interests to ensure that 'accurate recording' etc does not work accurately.

Now that's interesting. I agree with it all, however it essentially boils down to which approach realises the most (long term) revenue for the networks. Not something I can know. However I had two thoughts:

I can't imagine the scheduling games garner a huge ratings benefit to networks. We're talking a few percentage points either way I'd say (points that are worth a lot of $ sure but not a huge relative amount). In the large majority of houses ad skipping (either FF or skip) isn't used. Almost everyone watches TV 'live'. It amazes me how rarely people even record shows to watch another day. However I've seen numbers that suggest as PVRs become more wide spread the ease of 'timeshifting' viewing sees a marked increase in ad skipping (double digit % points)

But more importantly, why have Freeview at all? Its been no small effort to develop and market Freeview. Its also being heavily marketed (to both manufacturers and the viewer) as providing an accurate automatic record capability. What you're suggesting is that its not simply incompetence but actually the networks intent to ensure Freeview devices never work reliably. They might as well have just stuck with the status quo.

[GOBMax]

Now that's interesting. I agree with it all, however it essentially boils down to which approach realises the most (long term) revenue for the networks. Not something I can know. However I had two thoughts:

Its all about $$$$$.[/b]

Deliver a little bit more, Promise More but deliver less.

Free to Air gives all, but Foxtel, Tivo, and ISP Downloads generate $$$$ Profits.

Next generation hardware costs more, generates $$$ profits for Multi-Nationals.

With SD Digital Strong & Topfield TP 5000 came out on Top and the rest lost their way.

With HD Digital Topfield couldn't compete, Beyonwiz came to the Top, followed by Panasonic,

LG, DGtech, etc trying to catch up. Enter "Freeview" ????. (Promises all, delivers nothing)

Tivo has died a natural death, Foxtel holds strong (UNTIL YOU REQUEST TO DISCONNECT)

Maybe I'm a wrong.

But if a HD Multi-Tuner PVR, with (Blu-Ray Recorder,Player), editor, was available,

We all would be in Utopia

Having said it, its not going to happen.

So we have to live with it.

[Crazystu]

Maybe I'm a wrong.

But if a HD Multi-Tuner PVR, with (Blu-Ray Recorder,Player), editor, was available,

We all would be in Utopia

Having said it, its not going to happen.

So we have to live with it.

I have one. Its called an HTPC running MythTV - Quad Tuner, Bluray Player, Burner, Media Player, IR Remote, 2TB HDD, Auto Ad Skip/Detection, FF/RR up to 180X, It kicks the crap out of any PVR I have ever used or tested.

Took around 3 Months full time to get it 100% working and wife friendly. You should give it a go yourself then give us a call when you're fed up. - We build them only on request - and yes they are expensive - take around 1 week to build and configure properly.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Crazystu