Ota Epg, Now-Next, Now... Are They Different Info Sources?

[GregA1503560021]

I'm sending a request to a PVR maker and just want to get the terms right, and find out first if the following are all the same thing.

On my TV/STB, there is

1) "now" - an information panel showing what's on now

2) now-next

3) an EPG going forward a week

Just wondering if they are all the same thing in the OTA signal.

On many channels, the show title of what's on now changes at the precise second that the show starts. It sometimes contradicts the EPG time (but perhaps my system had cached earlier info). Precision is incredibly useful for a PVR (though I've seen it be wrong too!)

Anyway, I presume "now" and the "EPG" are different sources of information. ("Now-Next" is just a shorter version of the EPG I think)

Could anyone tell me the correct term for the information saying what is playing now, and if it relates or is separate to the other info like OTA EPG?

[pgdownload]

Precision is incredibly useful for a PVR

"could be", not "is" You're correct that N&N and EPG are sent seperately. However different PVRs might handle the information differently (some might just use the EPG data for the N&N for example). The N&N is still generally of little practical use.

In theory the N&N is meant to be minute accurate and PVR makers could use it to adjust timers on the fly so that they are delayed or extended to catch your shows. In practice this is fiddly (as dynamically changing timers can create clashes that have to be reolved) and it seems no PVR maker is willing to impliment this feature just yet (if only because as you say the OTA N&N info isn't 100% reliable). Its still much more reliable for a PVR to set static timers off the EPG with some auto padding to handle most variations.

It would be nice (and easy to impliment) if just before a timer was due to start or end that the PVR could check the N&N and if nothing else is happening either start early or run a bit late if the N&N said to do so - but that's yet to happen.

Anyway, the upshot of all that is PVRs currently don't use the N&N (accurate or not for timers). So its accuracy is only of mild interest when watching live (which people should rarely do - always better to start watching even a current show 15-30 minutes after its started so you can just skip through the ads)

On your specific query, There is simply the EPG and N&N - two seperate data sources broadcast OTA. If a PVR has a "Now" screen then that's either using the EPG or the N&N data (whichever they have decided to use)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited January 9, 2012 by pgdownload

[GregA1503560021]

Thanks Peter, that fine tunes my understanding just where I need it.

So the "now on" is just part of now and next.

It is more accurate than EPG but is only available for a short time which makes its use limited.

How does the Freeview OTA EPG compare for accuracy and precision anyway?

(edit: I'm pretty good with the acronyms , just didn't know where to start to look up if there was a special term for this!)

Edited January 9, 2012 by GregA

[pgdownload]

So the "now on" is just part of now and next.

Most likely however its possible its also just pointing at the EPG data.

Not that all broadcasters had to get N&N accurate this year as new legislation requires that PVRs can turn off the PVR depending on what age rating a show is.

Freeview have stated that the Freeview EPGand the OTA EPG share the same basic data source (eg what's on and when). However Freeview's big feature is potentially series recording which relies on a CRID (series/show identification number) also transmitted OTA. That's mostly working however its less than 100% reliable in correctly identifying a show to date.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Paul55]

So the "now on" is just part of now and next.

It is more accurate than EPG but is only available for a short time which makes its use limited.

How does the Freeview OTA EPG compare for accuracy and precision anyway?

I don't think that's what Peter said. The ''Now On'' could be sourced from either. You may be able to work out the source, by seeing which one matches the ''Now On'' data for times and description.

The ''Freeview'' information is only relevant if you are silly enough to buy a ''Freeview EPG'' labelled device - even if you can find one.

The ''Freeview'' data is supposed to be more accurate, but that isn't as useful as it sounds. Shows are still going to start and finish early or late - the broadcast is the same. This means the ''accurate'' information is only useful for adjacent shows on the same channel. An example assuming a twin tuner PVR, with a perfectly accurate clock time and all EPG data is absolutely accurate:

Channel 9 has Show 1 from 8:33 to 9:34

Channel 7 has Show 2 from 8:34 to 9:35

Channel 10 has Show 3 from 9:31 to 10:30

I have been generous with the timings as, in reality, it isn't uncommon for networks to be ''out'' by up to 15 minutes at this time of night.

As your PVR has only 2 tuners, it can only be recording from 2 networks at the same time. There is no way to ensure you will be able to capture all 3 shows in entirety regardless of the accuracy of the EPG. The only way it can work is if the networks start and finish shows within the originally published times - i.e. no slipping. This of course won't happen unless it is legislated and political parties don't have the courage to challenge the major media companies. Knowing what time a show will start/finish makes little difference to the ability to capture it if networks don't stick to their schedules.

[prl]

What Paul55 said about the usefulness of accurate Now/Next and EPG data. The underlying problem is non-adherence to the schedule, not the to-the-minute accuracy of the EPG or Now/Next. Accurate Now/Next data is important for the correct operation of parental control in receivers, though.

Now and Next is a separate data stream from the EPG, so it can be sourced from different data. However, whether the data in either is accurate is a completely different question.

[GregA1503560021]

I don't think that's what Peter said. The ''Now On'' could be sourced from either. You may be able to work out the source, by seeing which one matches the ''Now On'' data for times and description.

That's fine, I'm more interested in the fact that the TV channels transmit 2 different indicators of the show start time. I'm not concerned about what the receivers do with it currently.

Not that all broadcasters had to get N&N accurate this year as new legislation requires that PVRs can turn off the PVR depending on what age rating a show is.

I assume you mean "Now that all broadcasters", not "Not that all..."

That would make the N&N very useful! (if they actually do it).

I've tried searching for this online with no luck, any suggestions on search terms?

It would be nice (and easy to impliment) if just before a timer was due to start or end that the PVR could check the N&N and if nothing else is happening either start early or run a bit late if the N&N said to do so - but that's yet to happen.

Yes exactly the sort of thing that could improve recordings.

[DrP]

1) "now" - an information panel showing what's on now

This can be the 'now' event as per the EIT 'now & next' (present / following), but it could also just be the event shown in the general EPG that has a start and duration that suggests it should be on screen 'now'.

2) now-next

Again, this could be as per above but more commonly its the EIT 'now & next'.

3) an EPG going forward a week

This could be the EIT EPG or it could be the freeview EPG, depending on the recevier. A non-freeview branded receiver can only show the EIT EPG. A freeview branded 'phase 1' receiver also only has access to the EIT EPG. A freeview branded 'phase 2' receiver could show either the Freeview EPG or the EIT EPG. In instances where the phase 2 receiver has just been powered up and does not have 'freeview' EPG data cached and for some reason the channel its tuned to does not carry the freeview EPG (it happens from time to time) the 'phase 2' receiver can fall back to the EIT guide, but there is no requirement for this to happen. It might just show an empty guide until the freeview guide is received.

Just wondering if they are all the same thing in the OTA signal.

... in otherwords, no.

On many channels, the show title of what's on now changes at the precise second that the show starts. It sometimes contradicts the EPG time (but perhaps my system had cached earlier info). Precision is incredibly useful for a PVR (though I've seen it be wrong too!)

Government legislation requires that the networks provide accurate information to allow parental controls in receivers to be effective. This is done via the EIT 'now & next'. Freeview's 'accurate recording' also triggers off this information. Unfortunately how accurately the N&N ticks over varies considerably depending on the network that is providing the transmission. I've covered this particular topic at length elsewhere on the forum.

There are already non-freeview branded PVRs appearing on the market that attempt to leverage N&N for recording purposes but they are a bit hamstrung by the fact that they have no reliable method to determine a program's CRID (used to track a program, not necessarly present in the EIT EPG events, always present in the freeview guide) and have to fall back to the text title - Doctor Who, H2O: Just Add Water, etc (not forgetting that N&N doesn't necessarily trigger correctly anyway and that each network does not carry N&N for all the others). Given that text titles are prone to change (Is that an O or a 0 in H2O? Ten can't decide, nor can HWW the freeview guide aggregator) tracking by text titles is likely to have problems, but perhaps less (!) than freeview's CRID system as the CRIDs have been observed to flip flop around like a fish out of water. American Horror Story on ELEVEN via SCA has had 5 different CRIDs to date, which must make a freeview PVR particularly useless.

Edited January 10, 2012 by DrP

[pgdownload]

I assume you mean "Now that all broadcasters", not "Not that all..."

Yep.

That would make the N&N very useful! (if they actually do it).

Potentially useful yes. But I assume that's what you're going to ask your PVR maker to look at? Good luck.

I've tried searching for this online with no luck, any suggestions on search terms?

Try here

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[GregA1503560021]

Try here

Thanks for the ACMA link.

There's lots of information on the STB/TV manufacturers and their responses (including criticisms that lag can cause problems and TV providers will need to provide accurate information), but I haven't found anything specific to Now & Next information being the thing to use (I presume it's optional whether to use EPG or N&N?)

I also haven't found anything saying that starting this year (or any time) the broadcasters have to be accurate in one or both types of information.

I'll keep looking but any hints appreciated.

[prl]

Thanks for the ACMA link.

There's lots of information on the STB/TV manufacturers and their responses (including criticisms that lag can cause problems and TV providers will need to provide accurate information), but I haven't found anything specific to Now & Next information being the thing to use (I presume it's optional whether to use EPG or N&N?)

I also haven't found anything saying that starting this year (or any time) the broadcasters have to be accurate in one or both types of information.

I'll keep looking but any hints appreciated.

The answers to both those questions are to be found in the ACMA Electronic Program Guide Principles. On that page, it's the clear expectation of ACMA that present/following (aka now/next) will be used to implement parental lock functions, and that for that reason, "present/following section of the EPG must contain accurate and useful parental guidance rating information" and "The ‘following program’ field in the EPG must transition to the ‘present program’ field concurrently with the change in program content going to air." Perhaps a little surprisingly, the present/following data is not specified to contain any time information (FreeTV's Operational Practice 44: Implementation Guide for DVB EITpresent/following Information (EITp/f)). In that case, accurate Now/Next can't be used to predict the end time of the current program or the start or end time of the next one. It can be used (if it's accurate, and see DrP's comments about that) to detect when the current program finishes and the new one starts at the time of the switch from one to the other.

[pgdownload]

Its interesting that while manufactures have legislated requirements for implimenting a parental lock, the broadcasters only seem to have voluntary undertakings to do there best?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[prl]

Its interesting that while manufactures have legislated requirements for implimenting a parental lock, the broadcasters only seem to have voluntary undertakings to do there best?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Well, there is an implied threat to make the EPG Principles into regulations if the broadcasters don't play ball: "When it published the EPG principles, the ACMA undertook to consider broadcaster performance against the principles when deciding whether to exercise its regulatory powers".

Another interesting thing about the Principles is that it appears to me that according to Operational Practice 58: Implementation Guide for DVB EIT Schedule Information (EIT_{scheduleactual}), which the Principles refer to, the broadcasters aren't supposed to dicker around with the EPG times to make them match the actual broadcast times: "The accuracy of the timing information in the EIT_{scheduleactual} shall reflect the timing in the published station schedule." [my emphasis]

[RogC]

From my perusal of some of the "Operational Practices", it seems to me that the broadcasters and/or the PVR manufacturers are not fully complying (deliberately or otherwise) with them. The losers are ultimately we, the consumers.

RogC

[Paul55]

The PVR manufacturers have no control over the networks' refusal to stick to published times. IMO this is the ONLY problem. Fix this and the other issues go away.

[prl]

The PVR manufacturers have no control over the networks' refusal to stick to published times. IMO this is the ONLY problem. Fix this and the other issues go away.

A problem that's explicitly avoided in the Principles: "The EPG principles address the accuracy of program start times in the present/following section of the EPG only (see principle #2, above) – they do not address the accuracy of program start times in the seven-day schedule." [my emphasis]

[GregA1503560021]

Thanks all. some great links and thoughts.

The answers to both those questions are to be found in the ACMA Electronic Program Guide Principles. <snip>

Perhaps a little surprisingly, the present/following data is not specified to contain any time information (FreeTV's Operational Practice 44: Implementation Guide for DVB EITpresent/following Information (EITp/f)).

The first link you gave, in the EPG principles #2, says that Time will be contained in the EITp/f data.

A problem that's explicitly avoided in the Principles: "The EPG principles address the accuracy of program start times in the present/following section of the EPG only (see principle #2, above) – they do not address the accuracy of program start times in the seven-day schedule." [my emphasis]

Yes it's odd that the accuracy of the EPG isn't important. Just the present/future show information.

[prl]

...

The first link you gave, in the EPG principles #2, says that Time will be contained in the EITp/f data.

...

You're right, but I couldn't find any mention of time information in the Operational Practice.

Edited January 11, 2012 by prl

[pgdownload]

Yes it's odd that the accuracy of the EPG isn't important. Just the present/future show information.

Not really. I don't think any one really expects minute accuracy of scheduled programs days out from broadcast. The data for PVR makers is all there to record just what needs to be recorded. Now its just up to them to use it.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Paul55]

I don't think any one really expects minute accuracy of scheduled programs days out from broadcast.

Why not? Unless there is some major breaking news event that disrupts programming. Networks know the length of pre-recorded programs to the second. They always seem to manage to have the news start and finish on time and that is live TV.

The data for PVR makers is all there to record just what needs to be recorded. Now its just up to them to use it.

Peter, you aren't accounting for the limitations of a twin tuner system. Regardless of any last minute provision of start/finish times, any time overlap of the start/finish of programs on different networks requires the use of 2 tuners to record the overlapping portion - as explained in the 5th post of this thread. The amount of the overlap isn't particularly important and is easily dealt with by padding (which is catered for by good PVRs and, in my Nirvana, wouldn't be necessary).

If you are suggesting that PVRs should have more tuners - the only solution I think of - that's an added cost to the viewer because of the conniving methodology employed by the networks. My solution is to have 3 twin tuner FTA PVRs in my lounge which is costly, bulky, energy inefficient and sometimes confusing.

[DrP]

I'd expect times accurate to within 5 mins 24 hours before, and two mins 12 hours before. No magic nor super-powers are required. Foxtel does it day after day after day after day after day. The 'live programming' excuse doesn't work any more. Some people fell for it on the main channels but GO!, 7TWO, ELEVEN etc are almost exclusively pre-recorded (yes, I know there is tennis on 7two, this is an exception) and operated via playlists.

[pgdownload]

Why not?

For one reason, its pretty meaningless. By the nature of their accuracy such numbers would just bounce around all week. Doesn't help anyone set timers and probably just creates a less readable EPG with all its 8:32, 9:29, 10:43 etc. times instead or 8:30, 9:30 & 10:45

Peter, you aren't accounting for the limitations of a twin tuner system.

I don't need to - I don't think its the networks responsibility to taylor their business to maximise various technologies capability for us. esp when you consider that the PVR is very detrimental to the networks revenue. At any given time a twin tuner PVR guarantees the user the choice of recording two shows.

Twin Tuner PVRs can use the accurate N&N and EPG to improve reliability. Before now what's showing in the N&N and what's actually on screen haven't necessarily been the same thing. IMO though I don't imagine many (if any) PVR makers will bother with the headache of trying to impliment dynamic timers. None have tried using the CRID (is that available via the FTA EPG)

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[pgdownload]

I'd expect times accurate to within 5 mins 24 hours before, and two mins 12 hours before.

Probably doable I agree, but as mentioned of little practical use IMO. As Paul says, accuracy in itself is of little use 12 hours out versus 1 hour out.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Paul55]

A typical 1 hour program contains about 47 minutes of the actual show. There is absolutely no reason that the ''entertainment'' cannot be contained within the the 1 hour time block. e.g. Opening credits start at 8:31 and closing credits finish at 9:29. This would provide about 11 minutes of advertising time within that block and another 2 minutes before the next show starts.

This should be legislated, not for the convenience of PVR users (who have plenty of options to get around the networks' skullduggery), but for the live TV viewer who wants to watch shows on a different channel in the following time block. As Peter alludes to, a suitably equipped PVR user is unlikely to be watching adverts anyway, whereas the traditional live viewer is providing the desired behaviour (and by implication, revenue) to the network. The time slippage employed by the commercial networks is a deliberate and clumsy tactic to stop users from switching channels - therefore removing choice. This may seem a ''smart'' strategy at first glance, but like all disrespectful ploys, it will eventually backfire by encouraging more viewers to prerecord their TV in order to watch the shows they want.

End result - less effective advertising. Serves the ba$tards right, I say!

[pgdownload]

I agree totally that what you want to achieve is completely doable. Its just whether the networks should be force to do it that's in question in my mind. The government sells bandwidth. It puts constraints on what can be done with that bandwidth (max ads, offensive content, etc.), but it generally doesn't try tell the networks how they might improve their product. Same as it tells car makers minimum standards but not how to make better cars.

I agree its a shoddy tatic that must be of very little revenue benefit these days. There are signs the networks are coming to a similar conclusion as N&N accuracy and other enhancements are made. But in the meantime there would seem to be a slow and steady migration away from FTA to other sources and entertainment (although possibly the numbers are saying the opposite).

Regards

Peter Gilllespie

Edited January 12, 2012 by pgdownload