Ota Epg, Now-Next, Now... Are They Different Info Sources?

[Paul55]

whether the networks should be force to do it that's in question in my mind. The government sells bandwidth. It puts constraints on what can be done with that bandwidth (max ads, offensive content, etc.), but it generally doesn't try tell the networks how they might improve their product. Same as it tells car makers minimum standards but not how to make better cars.

I'm not one to promote unnecessary government interference either, but monitored self regulation certainly isn't working. The networks wield so much power that they treat the public with disdain. It's part of government's job to protect the public interest.

I don't believe keeping to schedules would constrain the networks from improving their product. ABC and SBS management don't seem to have too much difficulty in achieving it. Re your car analogy - I would see sticking to schedule as part of the minimum standard rather than an improved product. Improved product would be higher quality shows presented at optimal viewing times.

[DrP]

Probably doable I agree, but as mentioned of little practical use IMO. As Paul says, accuracy in itself is of little use 12 hours out versus 1 hour out.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Rubbish. Even + / - 5 mins 24 hours out would be a boon for owners of PVRs and computer based recording systems. Even freeview's so called 'accurate recording' could benefit from it given that at the moment a freeview PVR has no way to know that a program has started earlier than advertised unless it has a tuner parked on the relevant network up to 15 minutes* prior to the show starting.

*^{I've been logging the difference between the advertised time (EPG times and HWW) since December and even though its we aren't in the ratings period when the scheduling goes to hell, shows have still gone to air 15 minutes early on 7TWO, 12 minutes early on 7mate, 10 minutes early on GEM, 5 minutes early on 7, 5 minutes early on SC10, 11 minutes early on WIN (same times can be expected to be observed on the originating network).}

Edited January 12, 2012 by DrP

[DrP]

Twin Tuner PVRs can use the accurate N&N and EPG to improve reliability. Before now what's showing in the N&N and what's actually on screen haven't necessarily been the same thing. IMO though I don't imagine many (if any) PVR makers will bother with the headache of trying to impliment dynamic timers. None have tried using the CRID (is that available via the FTA EPG)

On the whole, no. 7 and ABC have decided to insert CRIDs into the general EPG, the others have explicitly excluded it. Given that the principle behind the freeview EPG is not to provide an EPG rather to prevent us horrid viewers from being able to record programming with ease, "that ain't never gonna happen".

[pgdownload]

Rubbish. Even + / - 5 mins 24 hours out would be a boon for owners of PVRs and computer based recording systems.

Yes it would be, but how is it better 24 hours out rather than 1 hour out? I suspect PVR owners wouldn't want to set all their timers 24 hours out, and computers don't care about 1 or 24 hours.

Thanks for the confirmation on the CRID. It would be strange IMO if Freeview made it reliably and universally available.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

I thought it was pretty obvious. Australian networks do not transmit EIT EPGs for each other. A PVR has to be tuned to each network for at least 45 seconds to capture all EPG events. It is far preferable to be able to collect events over a 24 / 12 hour window during which time a tuner is likely to be available to collect the EPG rather than a 1 hour window in which there is considerably less chance of a tuner being available.

If one is manually setting recordings, when is it likely to be done? The day before, the morning before or one hour before the event supposedly starts?

Edited January 12, 2012 by DrP

[pgdownload]

I thought it was pretty obvious.

I don't watch FTA much these days. What gave me pause was you have been tracking the CRID on your PC. If you can see it, presumably the networks or a PVR maker can extract it from the FTA stream?

If one is manually setting recordings, when is it likely to be done? The day before, the morning before or one hour before the event supposedly starts?

Its likely to be done 24+ hours before IMO. Not saying accuracy isn't a nice to have a day out, just that we can overestimate how much of an impact it might have in practice.

I think we agree that best case would be shows all starting and finishing within their time slot. Then all this complexity with N&N could be dispensed with entirely. Just look at the EPG and you have accurate start end times. No padding would be needed. But it seems certain that the networks aren't willing to go down this path (and they won't be forced to) so accurate N&N only it is. In theory, that would allow PVRs to get rid of most padding, which currently contributes much more than the 'networks schenanigans' to timers overlapping and tying up tuners unecesarily. In practice I suspect most/all PVR makers will probably just stick with uncomplicated padding.

[prl]

The problem with the EPG and recording is far more due to uncertainty of the broadcast time rather than the accuracy of the time in the EPG.

[DrP]

Not saying accuracy isn't a nice to have a day out, just that we can overestimate how much of an impact it might have in practice.

Dear God. Show me one PVR owner in this country that wouldn't be happy to see the end of having to set excessive padding just to try to record a program. Just one.

[Puss in Books]

David Leckie?

[prl]

David Leckie?

Robin Parkes?

[pgdownload]

Show me one PVR owner in this country that wouldn't be happy to see the end of having to set excessive paddin

Not saying accuracy isn't a nice to have a day out, just that we can overestimate how much of an impact it might have in practice.

Accuracy 5 days out would be fantastic, Accuracy 12-24 hours out is not likely to change how most PVR owner set timers IMO.

David Leckie

I don't think he owns a PVR, mostly watches via channel bt.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

Edited January 13, 2012 by pgdownload

[prl]

Accuracy 5 days out would be fantastic, Accuracy 12-24 hours out is not likely to change how most PVR owner set timers IMO.

...

No, keeping to the published schedule would be fantastic. Leaving a minute or two of slack (station promos, ad break) between the end of one program and the start of the next would be even better (as you typically see on the ABC and SBS). That would also make the switchover of Now/Next and its interaction with Parental Control less critical.

Unfortunately, I can't see either happening, as I believe that both are part of "normal" practice to try to keep viewers from changing to another channel at the end of a program.

[DrP]

Accuracy 5 days out would be fantastic, Accuracy 12-24 hours out is not likely to change how most PVR owner set timers IMO.

If the information was accurate PVRs released in Australia would contain firmware to review the guide periodically and adjust accordingly. People wouldn't necessarily need to set a manual timer recording. This is how things worked in the UK prior to their freeview introducing CRIDs. The UK experience became even better post CRID introduction.

Before you even think about wandering off into fantasy world again, their system actually works. The CRIDs are stable. One can rely on them to trigger recording of a nominated program, week after week after week. EIT for each mux is carried on all other muxes in an area and proper use of the EIT running status is made permitting a PVR to monitor any mux in an area and be able to determine that a program is about to start on another mux, switch a tuner to that mux in time for everything to settle and then record the desired program, in full.

UK broadcasters are every bit as aware of the PVR ad skipping problem that Australian broadcasters are. The difference is that the UK decided that rather than criminalise and penalise their viewers they'd employ the carrot approach to encourage FTA viewing. As a result the UK has not experienced the dire plummet in the youth viewing audience that Australian broadcasters have. Australian broadcasters wouldn't discuss the youth ratings drop at all until they thought they'd found a counter to it - the additional channels - but all that did was stop the nosedive. Youth (the adult viewers of tomorrow) ratings are still dismal. The additional channels do not address the underlying issues and I fully expect the nosedive to recommence in time.

[prl]

My understanding is that (perhaps due to regulations), the UK broadcasters actually keep to their schedules better than Australian broadcasters. This is far more important to recording than shifting the EPG from initial published times to reflect actual broadcast times.

If broadcasters kept to their schedules, always be possible to record in full consecutive shows from different broadcasters. At the moment, if I have a dual-tuner PVR and I want to record, say, Seven SD and Nine SD programs scheduled 19:30-20:30, and then SBS 1 and Ten SD programs scheduled from 20:30-21:30, there is no way, even with advance knowlege of actual broadcast times and/or CRIDs, to always be able to record the whole of all four programs. Simply no way.

[DrP]

That's it prl. The UK has far stricter regulations regarding scheduling, although they don't care if the schedules are odd times, just that they are announced well in advance and adhered to. I explained the antics that Australian broadcasters get up to to a bunch of Britts and they simply couldn't believe it, especially the part where 9 bought HWW and started seeding it with incorrect info in an attempt to thwate ICE.

UKer's generally decry their OFCOM as a toothless old dog, but when it comes to TV, OFCOM beats ACMA outright.

[pgdownload]

My understanding is that (perhaps due to regulations), the UK broadcasters actually keep to their schedules better than Australian broadcasters. This is far more important to recording than shifting the EPG from initial published times to reflect actual broadcast times.

Don't disagree. But putting wishfull thinking that that might happen in Oz aside, I'm looking at what's being offered (i.e. accurate N&N). At the top of this page DrP said he'd want this extended out 12-24 hours with a +/-2 minute accuracy. My thinking is that this would have little impact on PVR/timer usage beyond what an accurate N&N can provide. In theory its better, in paractice...?

Regards

Peter Gillepsie

[DrP]

Still missing the obvious eh. pgdownload? Suppose we keep the existing levels of inaccuracy with the general EPG and make N&N razor sharp all the time. How do propose to inform a PVR that is tuned to the 7 network and the 9 network (dual tuner) that a program is about to start early on the 10 network? Remember that Australian broadcasters do not carry EIT for all, only themselves.

Now imagine how things would work if the EPG was accurate 12 hours out.

Obvious enough?

Edited January 14, 2012 by DrP

[pgdownload]

Obvious enough?

I suspect you mistake 'obvious' as being the same as what's rattling around in your head as you type. Do it all the time myself

I'm not advocating acurate N&N over acurate EPG, just looking at the benefits of what's on offer. An early start occurance is worth noting but probably only as an intellectual exercise. There's nothing to be gained by networks by starting shows early and in practice it almost never happens (too many ads to squeeze in). + what most irritates is missing the end of a show, not the first 2 minutes IMO. So an accurate N&N is potentially useful to handle the ubiquitos overrun.

Given Oz broadcasters don't carry EIT for each other then an accurate (+/- 3 minutes) EPG is still of little use unless you cycle all channels each morning (12 hours out) and then set your timers around midday.

Regardless of what's on offer, a few clever people will be able to leverage it. But in terms of widespread effectiveness an accurate N&N could be used by PVR makers to make a better product.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[DrP]

Never happens my arse. Would you like a list of programming that I've logged as starting early? Its going to be quite long... but I can post it if you want.

Again you, for reasons known only to yourself, are sidestepping the issue. Accurate N&N is of little use to PVR owners. Accurate times in the EPG would be far far more useful. The reasons have been explained to you time and time again in several threads on this forum. I'll leave it to the readers to ponder why you continue to 'debate' the issue.

[Paul55]

There's nothing to be gained by networks by starting shows early and in practice it almost never happens

I'll have to disagree there Peter, I record quite a few shows that start after 11:00 pm and it's not rare to have them start 10 or so minutes early. I agree, there seems no logical reason, but it happens too often be called rare.

[pgdownload]

I'll have to disagree there Peter, I record quite a few shows that start after 11:00 pm and it's not rare to have them start 10 or so minutes early. I agree, there seems no logical reason, but it happens too often be called rare.

Its called prime time for a reason If there's three shows on at the same time at 2am in the morning that are unmissable then yes the networks and twin tuner PVRs have indeed failed.

Would you like a list of programming that I've logged as starting early? Its going to be quite long... but I can post it if you want.

I'd be interested, I relish the data. I'd also be interested how they started early? We're you watching House at 8:28 or Better Homes and Gardens at 7:25 as the EPG stated otherwise?

IMO the scenario we're talking about here is how the first 30 seconds of CSI:Miami might be missed if we ever decided to set timers according to the EPG. That doesn't happen now, I'm not suggesting that with the available broadcast info we do it in the future. Just that in 99%? of general prime time viewing, setting a timer with the EPG and then using accurate N&N to see out the show would be very effective.

Its childs play to work out a recording nirvana, but it also childlike to think that's what everyone wants.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[prl]

...

Its childs play to work out a recording nirvana, but it also childlike to think that's what everyone wants.

...

I have A Modest Proposal. Broadcasters publish a weekly schedule. Broadcasters stick to the schedule, with possible exceptions for major disasters, and perhaps unexpected delays or extensions of major sporting events.

I think that about the only people who that wouldn't please are the people for whom ratings numbers are directly convertible to dollar amounts.

[DrP]

Its pretty obvious that pgdownload has not made any observations of the variability of the timing of programming compared to the printed guides, web guides and EPG. On that basis there is no point in continuing to 'discuss' the issue with him as it would involve educating him first. This isn't the first time that he has engaged in a discussion where its clear he has little practical knowledge / understanding of the issues at hand and no doubt will not be the last.

I'll be happy to continue discussion with others that do have an understanding of the fundamentals of the issue at hand.

[Paul55]

I have been conversing with pgdownload for quite a few years on this and other fora. I can assure you that, while I sometimes have differing opinions, he has a broad knowledge of the subject matter.

[pgdownload]

I have A Modest Proposal. Broadcasters publish a weekly schedule. Broadcasters stick to the schedule, with possible exceptions for major disasters, and perhaps unexpected delays or extensions of major sporting events.

As I said, very simple exercise.

I think that about the only people who that wouldn't please are the people for whom ratings numbers are directly convertible to dollar amounts.

Exactly. FTA isn't just about viewers and its not just about the broadcasters - otherwise we'd just have ABC1, ABC2, ABC3 ... ABC9, ABC10, ABC11 to watch.

Its pretty obvious that pgdownload has not made any observations of the variability of the timing of programming compared to the printed guides

and you've offered to provide some of your observations? This dicussion has been about what seems to be a silly statement made about how a (theoretically) accurate 24 hour EPG would be of great benefit to PVR users - I think I've explained how this would offer little practical extra benefit (over the N&N). Its also been about examining how an (actual) accurate N&N might be of benefit to PVR makers in catching latestarts and overruns (although you seem to be of the impression that this isn't a big issue and we should be more concerned with the early starts of shows.)

Regards

Peter Gillespie