high density polystyrene Insulation in room within room

[oztheatre]

Hi all,

I am closing in on completing my new showroom which is sitting at the end of and inside a 36 x 9 colorbond shed. The shed itself has that 10mm silverbacked foam insualtion in the ceiling and walls. Then I have a timber framework, completely freestanding off the shed walls which is 6.75 x 5.4 metres internally. So I have some space between the shed and the frame (about 300 each side and about 800 each end front to back). I was going to put in some insulation that will help with both thermal and sound and wanted to know what you guys are using as there seems to be some options on the market from various insualtion manufacturers. I was then thinking of high density foam that I could cut to size and sit inside the framework. Would you keep an air gap of say 10-20mm between the single layer of gyprock and the insulation or push it right up against the gyprock? If I had an airgap I would essentially have 2 airgaps as the frame sits well off the steel of the shed. Of course the gyprocker is saying no insulation but go with 2 layers of gyprock. Thinking whirlybird on colorbond roof to take out heat since I'm essentially sealing that area off as my media room ceiling is flat.

Attached is an image of the rough in to give you an idea. Just looking for a cost effective solution. Yet to price up foam but will check that out today.

As you can see there's a few options out there https://www.pricewiseinsulation.com.au/product-category/soundproofing-insulation/

 

[Quark]

Avoid the airgap between the gyprock and insulation - see here for the rationale.

[oztheatre]

41 minutes ago, Quark said:

Avoid the airgap between the gyprock and insulation - see here for the rationale.

Thanks Quark. I guess no air gap means I shouldn't use high density foam either? I could see getting that flush with the gyprock a little tricky.

[Quark]

The HD foam you linked to looks like it's optimised for on-wall installation to reduce reverb, rather than in-wall to reduce transmission, so yes, I'd pass on that.

[oztheatre]

2 hours ago, Quark said:

The HD foam you linked to looks like it's optimised for on-wall installation to reduce reverb, rather than in-wall to reduce transmission, so yes, I'd pass on that.

Oh ok, but these are all sound proofing insulations? https://www.pricewiseinsulation.com.au/product-category/soundproofing-insulation/

 

[Quark]

23 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

Oh ok, but these are all sound proofing insulations? https://www.pricewiseinsulation.com.au/product-category/soundproofing-insulation/

 

Looks like they've just lumped in room treatments (for reverb) and sound insulation together.  Only the HD acoustic panels are for reverb, so probably not convenient for the retailer to set up a separate category.

[oztheatre]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

Looks like they've just lumped in room treatments (for reverb) and sound insulation together.  Only the HD acoustic panels are for reverb, so probably not convenient for the retailer to set up a separate category.

Yeah I saw that. Just wondered though, since there's about 4 brands, fletcher, pink, knauf and bradford.. well not sure.. might go for something with a higher R value in the ceiling as have lots of space and some 2.5 or 3.0 in the side frames.

 

[Zinzan]

Standard r2 for walls and 3 for the ceiling. As part of w soundproofing system I don't believe you need anything fancier.

the dedicated "sound" insulation might help in standard residential if they were doings std construction but you're in a shed and you've already decoupled the frame off of the shed ... I can't see any fancy insulation being of any real benefit. 

Are you going to gyp/gyp or ply/gyp double wall on the side?  Be sure to get some Green glue / quiet glue in between.

For a shed with a concrete slab I reckon isolating off the floor will be the biggest challenge to sound containment...what's the plan there?

[oztheatre]

On 06/08/2016 at 6:52 AM, Zinzan said:

Standard r2 for walls and 3 for the ceiling. As part of w soundproofing system I don't believe you need anything fancier.

the dedicated "sound" insulation might help in standard residential if they were doings std construction but you're in a shed and you've already decoupled the frame off of the shed ... I can't see any fancy insulation being of any real benefit. 

Are you going to gyp/gyp or ply/gyp double wall on the side?  Be sure to get some Green glue / quiet glue in between.

For a shed with a concrete slab I reckon isolating off the floor will be the biggest challenge to sound containment...what's the plan there?

Hey mate thanks for the info. Nah im just getting some soundcheck or soundboard to go over the insulation/frame.

The floor.. carpet is about the only plan.. I actually banged on the framework today and it makes the colorbond wall rattle.. and there's nothing connecting them only the slab... so hopefully the gyprock will help some more.. it's on 10 acres so it's not a massive drama if sound gets out.. but the rattling shed might be the biggest problem.. I can take sheets off and fill with insulation to stop it vibrating.. Get some floor spikes for the subs.. sit them on sheet of rubber or something similar.

[Zinzan]

I put rubber pads under my sub (one in each corner) from Bunnings that they supply for putting a washing machine on.  Seemed to work very well. 

[SandS]

Should be a good room Rich.  I supose it will be ready for the new JVC 4K Laser Projector Demo......

[hopefullguy]

yep those washing machine pads are $5 for 4... bunnings also seem to now stock the large rubber tiles.. same material but about $11.50 in store (bot on net yet) these are about 450x450 19mm thick so make large pads for sub/speakers if needed... better than $120 for svs feet isolators imo.

[oztheatre]

HA! I discovered why the shed colorbond was rattling. They hadn't done up the screws properly and a whole heap were missing. So I slid some of the sliver back insulation in between, seems to have worked quite well. But yeah either way I'll use those rubber tiles or get some sheets. Gyprock went in yesterday, went with boral soundboard 13mm.

Sands: yeah JVC 4K laser, wow, it's going to knock our socks off I'd say.

hopefullyguy, zinzan; Those tiles sound like the go, might aswell put under each of the speakers on the floor. good reason for a bunnings visit this weekend.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Hatlesschimp]

Nice work Rich!

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[CAVX]

This room should be good.  

To do a true "room in a room" you actually need to build the outer-shell first which is not just use the shed walls.  These walls are treated with insulation.  There is debate whether they are closed in or left open so that the insulation is exposed to the air gap.  Inner walls are the same where the insulation is exposed to the air gap.  

The theory is that sounds will pass through the inner wall, lose energy, then hit the air gap and 2nd wall of insulation, lose even more energy before bouncing back, losing even more energy on the way back.  The purpose is two way - where you don't want your sound being heard outside and you you don't want outside noises being heard inside your room either.  Regardless of how quiet my room is, the squawking of crows seems to still penetrate.  Don't hear anything else like traffic.  

The fact that you have an air gap between your cinema wall and the shed is a big plus and pretty much what I have given I built my cinema inside a garage and was not able to build onto the walls of the house.  The problems with most HTs build inside homes is the HT walls are part of the home, so there is no air gap.  

If you have the budget, I would lay down a thin false floor.  I used 70 x 30mm pine and flooring.  So the thickness is just 35mm+16mm + carpet.  It is starting to squeak in places now, but the room is also 6 years old now as well.  This false floor "floats" inside the room boundaries and is not attached the walls.    

My worst rattles are my doors and whilst they are solid core, they rattle against the door jam and have not fitted any rubber there yet which I need to do.    

 

 

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[oztheatre]

Thanks for that info Mark, as usual, a stellar job at explaining how all this works.

I wish I could have done the floor but time was not on my side. It should be fine, closest neighbour is about 200 metres.

[CAVX]

All good.  I hope it doesn't rattle due to the outer shell being a shed.  

[oztheatre]

Yeah the only upside is it has that 10mm silver backed insulation right around it under the colorbond sheeting.

[agelessgoodguy]

Rich do you have enough room between the shed walls and its frame to glue back to the studs the silver foils sheeting at each stud so it cannot flap/vibrate too? or are you hoping the sound energy will not be that great back there?

[oztheatre]

On 04/09/2016 at 4:58 PM, agelessgoodguy said:

Rich do you have enough room between the shed walls and its frame to glue back to the studs the silver foils sheeting at each stud so it cannot flap/vibrate too? or are you hoping the sound energy will not be that great back there?

hey mate, sorry I missed this. The silver foil attached to the inner colorbond walls isn't glued but it's sitting fairly flat and runs behind all the C-sections which are screwed into to hold the colorbond sheets in place.

The small airgap might be a good thing I'm not sure though. There was some rattling of the shed sheets internally but there were screws and insulation missing which I've since added and it seems to have worked.  I wish I could have done the floor.. maybe I still can, there is no carpet in there yet only gyprock and skirting and a riser.

Thinking of green gluing a sheet of 12 or 18mm sheet of mdf to the door and thicken up the door jam and put in some foam tape around the door jam so the door closes snug. Doors always seem like a weak point and let out too much sound.

[apgood]

hey mate, sorry I missed this. The silver foil attached to the inner colorbond walls isn't glued but it's sitting fairly flat and runs behind all the C-sections which are screwed into to hold the colorbond sheets in place.

The small airgap might be a good thing I'm not sure though. There was some rattling of the shed sheets internally but there were screws and insulation missing which I've since added and it seems to have worked.  I wish I could have done the floor.. maybe I still can, there is no carpet in there yet only gyprock and skirting and a riser.

Thinking of green gluing a sheet of 12 or 18mm sheet of mdf to the door and thicken up the door jam and put in some foam tape around the door jam so the door closes snug. Doors always seem like a weak point and let out too much sound.

If you wanted to improve soundproofing of the doorway you could have 2 doors. The extior door opening outwards and the interior door inwards. Only thing is the the door jam between the two door needs to be thick enough for the door knobs. Also you need the doors hung so the knobs are on opposite sides.

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