Lazz Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 On one of my facebook liked' pages, I see a post touting the fantastic sound improvements to a relatively new fuse. With my skepticism piqued, I went through and read the review from a casual user to the sonic benefits of said fuse. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in swapping fuses in their equipment and hearing an increase in sound quality. The price of these fuses in the article when converted to Aud from Hk$ equates to @ $541. I don't know if they would make a substantial improvement, but when one considers the prospect of multiple fuses in even one power amp let alone the rest of the equipment chain this could lead to multiple thousands of $ in upgrades. It would be interesting to explore what 'super duper' materials are used in the manufacture. It would want to be something very special for such a small item demanding this type of money. If anyone has used them I would love to hear your experiences. Here is the review followed by a google page which came up after a search for said fuse. I post the following pages/articles purely as reference for discussion. Power house fuses a study. PETE KENDALL·SATURDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2018 Here are some preliminary results of my recent testing of fuses kindly supplied by Ka Lok Chan. I'm not going to pass comments on the the sounds/musicality yet . [See below] While the testing was taking place.. all equipment remained the same, all settings were identical, and the measurements taken from the same position using a pink noise source. These are for comparative purposes “only” so any deficiencies in the testing and results will be the same for each Fuse. *please note that the bussman fuse trace is included but is not made in the same way so the intensity levels can be read against the side scale ..but are not directly comparable to other traces . The intensity ie loudness is the colour scale on the left. Frequency increase from left to right and the vertical scale is time. Each trace shows about 20 sec on several traces the line near the top of the trace is the actuation of the screen shot. Several traces were taken for each fuse so that any ambient noise variations were excluded. The most representative is shown below. I think it's quite clear that each fuse altered the "balance" of the pink noise. Some freq bands are clearly more prominent, Much to my suprise ! Is this the first time you can actually see that different fuses do affect the final sound ? The sixth pic shows other traces for the same fuse overlapped to show similar results, and the overlapping of two different fuses to show the differences. Now we move onto the Effects that these fuse have on the perceived sound. These are my thoughts on the differing sounds created by changing the fuses in my system. The Fuses were kindly donated by Ka Loc Chan …..and a very generous donation it is indeed. I did tell him that I would do my best to describe what I could hear and try to provide some visual evidence to back any aural differences heard. This is going to be a “warts and all” type report, ie if I don’t like it or find an issue I will say so !. This not a review as such, nor recommendation to purchase. This I hope is a fair and frank assessment of the items provided. The fuses were nicely packaged and each of them sealed in a plastic metalized pouch inside a card board sleeve [except the Zero ]. The outer packing carried little to no detail, which was disappointing, just a sticker to indicate the fuse type. I would have thought a few words on there use and a bit of information about the item could have been useful, but that may change the future. Having tested all the fuses with pink noise and taking screen shots of the frequency traces, [these will be added to the end of this report]. The next thing to discuss is perceived sound differences, and yes some of you will find this very hard to believe. So a little background, a couple of years ago I did some research into fuses [none hifi/standard household types] and was rather surprised to find that even humble 10p fuse sound different, not hugely of course. The differences were repeatable and I was able to draw a few conclusions as to which I preferred in my system. I was then loaned a couple of hifi fuses by Jon tiltman of this group. You can read about the this in “what’s all the fuse about” in the files section [top right under the group name]. down to business …… Each fuse was placed in the single three pin plug that powers my whole system. Each time the fuse was allowed 30 mins running before any tests were carried out. This included the fuse I had in my system to start with. This fuse was removed and a different Bussmann was placed in the system and run for 30 mins. Then my polished Bussmann was reinserted to emulate the insertion process or try and eliminate effects created by the act of changing the fuses. various tracks were listen to but the main “diagnostic” track was “On the run” from DSOTM this of course leads on to the next track with the alarm clocks. Within track 2 there are multiple layers and effects which I use to assess the performance of my system ..ie can I hear the turbo prop start up and taxi across the soundstage from right to left, then turn and take off from low left to high right and bank away from the listener. Or the airport announcer, or the the slap of running feet on a hard floor. Then I assess the surprise factor in the alarm clocks …yes I know they are coming but they still elicit a jump factor. I obviously can’t comment on the Bussmann as that’s my datum point. first Alpha 2000. is there a difference yes …..ok I now have to re evaluate as my expectation bias [if it exists] suggested that any difference would be nearly undetectable. I had thought this was going to be like testing the Bussmann and SEM fuse where you’d really have to concentrate on the minutia. But no the differences are fairly clear. My impressions are that the sound is less harsh, smoother more focused sound stage but seems narrower too. Surprise rating on a scale of 1- 10 for the “alarm clocks” comes in at 3 [if the Bussmann is 5] . Could I live with this – yes. It’s a step forward in some respects and a step back to. second fuse infinity power platinum What's gone off here? subjectively louder WTF ..check volume and level settings ….all are the same as Alpha 2000. Punchier tighter presentation, wider soundstage …….but with a strange “valve” like effect. Not the nice rich musical valve sound, but the odd harmonic distortion's. I’m not saying there is, just that after a while I found that the bad sound was submerging the good. Surprise rating - this was a lot better than the previous fuse and so would rate it at 7. Could I live with this fuse in my system …no have to say it was a relief to hear the next one ! third alpha 8000 A big step sideways from the previous item…retained were the punchiness tight presentation and musicality of the 2000 but more of it. Bigger bolder more dynamic than the 2000 . Sound stage was much the same. Very much the big brother of the 2000. The surprise rating was a gnats better than the platinum and so would give it 7.5. could I live with this - yes …definitely better than my usual. fourth Alpha 10000 definitely a series here. this is just more of the same but with extra stuff ! not a lot you can say …if I had to quantify it ..say 15- 20% better than the 8000. Could I live with this – yes without hesitation Fifth Zero omg ….where to start ? startling, stunning, can’t believe it. Hearing stuff clearly like the airport announcer …as if balls of cotton wool have been removed from my ears …..no come on this is stupid !. This fuse has stayed in for two weeks now …each time I play something its hearing it a new . Surprise factor well you’ll not be surprised if I give it 15 If I had not heard it in my system I would not have believed it …. I find it hard to credit the effect it’s had could I live with it ..your damn right ! phrases… like prise it from my cold dead hand etc ! Sixth fuse Bussmann omg where has the music gone ..presentation flat life less grey ..more grey with extra helpings of grey. The zero went back in at the first opportunity. conclusion Not all fuses are made equal. This is a very slippery slope you can't un- remember what effect these little blighters have had. Basically don’t take anyone's word [or mine], go out there and try them for yourself. But and it’s a big but - None of the fuses tested here [bar the Bussmann] carry CE markings. They may conform to BS 1363, but may not be certificated as such. Any use of these fuses is therefore entirely at your own risk ! I will in the coming days amalgamate the two sets of tests into a single file . Ken Stokes report...... My conclusions after demoing the fuses sent to me by Pete Kendall (courtesy of Ka Lok Chan).. except sadly the zero which Pete wasn’t parting with! However, Pete very kindly sent me, as promised, so here are my comments re results. I was sent the Infinity Power Platinum and Alpha 10,000, 8,000 and 2000. Before I launch into anything I’m going to outline my approach and methodology. I have no intention of entering the ‘are they value for money’ debate, that to me is something you decide. I will though say from the off yes, I did notice differences. I started with a few questions, the first being a simple ‘can I hear a difference?’ Followed by ‘if I can hear a difference, do I like the difference, is it an improvement for me, my system or not? What is the difference? I don’t doubt there will be plenty who will say this is nonsense, although I am intrigued by what the more technically minded make of Pete’s pink noise data graph prints. Anyway, I don’t have the same experience of tweaking with fuses that Pete has and to be brutally honest I started with a ‘well I probably won’t hear any difference’ mindset. I’m a better cable advocate, I’ve replaced all my mains leads with screen earthed cables and use a mains conditioning unit which I believe utilises basic filters, the Weiduka AC8.8. For what it is worth I believe my system is a fairly ‘clean’ and balanced system that is good for assessing small differences. To be honest I didn’t know what to expect, but was intrigued enough to give these fuses a try. In the past (more as a belt n braces ‘it might make a difference approach) I fitted a polished silver Bussmann to the one fused (wall) three pin plug in my system (all others are US fuseless three pin plugs off the Weiduka). Obviously Bussmann are as cheap as chips! I bought ten SEM and and ten Bussmann for £3.50 delivered.. I didn’t spend a great deal of time assessing though, fitted the polished Bussmann and promptly forgotten about. Perhaps before I set out my thoughts and conclusions I should also explain my methodology. I’ve never been good at or felt happy with instantaneous A/B tests with cables or other kit that may have a subtle effect. Instead I prefer an approach based on extended listening, getting used to any change I make over the course of listening to a broad range of musical styles, different moods and listening at different times etc. Then I try to pick out pieces of music that I am very familiar with, that I know work well with my system or have very specific characteristics, bass heavy, very lean, forward vocals or bright cymbals etc. Etc. I then try to discern anything that is different. It’s time consuming, but I usually, eventually if there is a difference, drop on a piece of music that for whatever reason really highlights those differences. Then I retro fit the standard ‘usual kit’ and focus on those pieces of music again that I felt highlighted those differences. Is it repeatable? If I retro fit the old kit does the change ‘disappear’ and when I re fit is it back? I completely accept our mind can and sometimes does play tricks with really subtle changes, leaving us sometimes wondering is it real or imagined.. I also watched to see if any changes to incoming voltage (my conditioner gives a read out) and ensure kit is warmed, that conditions are as close as possible when making judgements. Conclusions - First up I tried the Infinity Power Platinum. Almost immediately I felt there was more detail, it wasn’t that hard to notice tbh. However, after several hours I’d have to say I wondered if I was just not in the mood, I liked the detail, I played several albums I know usually hit the spot and sound good on my set up. For whatever reason it wasn’t happening, either I wasn’t in the mood or something wasn’t gelling. One album, Bonnie Raitt Luck of the Draw, title track sounded particularly fatiguing. Normally I find that album a banker for the feel good factor..I stuck with a few days, I retro fitted the Bussmann and noticed a slight loss of detail, but it really was like putting some comfy slippers back on! I repeated switching between the two fuses for a couple more days off and on .. off and... I don’t doubt that the Platinum may work for some, in their rig, yes it was, in the greater scheme of what you can change, subtle, but for me it just didn’t fit. There was a difference, more detail and for me, my rig, a touch leaner, but also a slightly fatigueing edge and tbh it was that slightly jarring fatiguing edge that ultimately stood out. The Platinum was definitely not for me. It was a big enough difference, ultimately, for me to be glad it was out! So the Platinum was a definite no thanks for me. Maybe in some others rigs be different situation though. The Alpha fuses, now these I found a different kind of change. I started with the 10,000, more detail, more what I would call micro detail, shifts in the timbre of instruments and a hint of things going on I’d not noticed before, similar degree of change to the Platinum, but for me more forgiving. No harshness or fatigue. Yes in some ways it was a subtle change if you compare to the bigger changes we can make, but frankly once noticed, perhaps on a two minute listen or even just one album you might think am I hearing or not, but over a fair bit of listening and the same narrowing to certain albums plus the retro fitting and back and forth between Bussmann and Alpha I found I could hear repeatable differences. One particular test track (which I found also worked very well with the Alpha 2000) was JJ Cale’s To Tulsa and Back, Chains of Love, this track has several overlaid vocal tracks, those overlays were just, well, clearer. It was repeatable, Bussmann back in and some of those chorus lines just faded into the background. I tested the Alpha 10,000 and after the usual retro checks with Bussmann I started switching between the 10,000 and 2,000. I’d describe the 10,000 as very slightly leaner than the 2000 (on my set up of course), both didn’t really make any kind of quantum shift in terms of warm v lean against the Bussmann though. What was obvious was greater detail and punch. I know corny, but more ‘sparkle’ at the top. Things just sounded a touch more vibrant. There wasn’t really any noticeable negative, fatiguing or harsh edges. However, I’m not even sure I can explain, but the Alpha 2000 kept me coming back. It felt ‘richer’ than the 10,000 in my set up. In the end I was reluctant to take the 2000 out and for me that was enough to satisfy me these fuses make noticeable differences, but as always system matching surely has to play a part? By now I had fed a few thoughts back to Pete (although he wasn’t giving anything away until I’d offered my take, which I think fair, we didn’t want to influence each other’s conclusions). In the end I didn’t test / demo the Alpha 8000, by now there was someone else in line to have a try so I felt happy I’d explored enough for now. I checked my notes and bundled up the fuses for Andy Hayes who now has them (or least should soon). So do I think they made a difference, well clearly yes I did, did I think a big difference? Not in the greater scheme of things although I will say I couldn’t have lived with the Platinum, I’d have ended up swopping out cables and scratching my head, so subtle it maybe, but definitely enough difference for me to notice AND find irritating at one end of the scale and a bit cheesed off about removing the Alpha 2000 at the other end of the scale! Am I surprised, a little yes, maybe I shouldn’t be, I am a better cable advocate for starters and have believed screened mains cables make a difference. I suppose, without pretending to understand any finer technical details, the fuse IS the weakest link, maybe slight changes to the weakest link have the scope to matter more than we think? Would I swop out one of these fuses for my trusty Bussmann, yep, absolutely. My appetite has certainly been wetted enough to want to try the Zero as well though! So many thanks to Ka Lok Chan. Thank you for the chance to have try with these fuses. It’s been a bit of an eye opener. Slightly off topic ...but we did try the zero fuse in Matthew’s system Matthew Norwell October 10 at 4:17 PM · tagAdd Topics Big thanks to Pete today who took the time to come and see me a listen to the system What an eye opener iam not going to mention the things that made small differences or marginal but what really worked and made an impact on my system and me firstly the CD spray omg I wouldn't have thought it would make the difference it did 25% my guess like a red book to a sacd disc and abit more I've got to buy some now I'll get back to you once I get around to cleaning 8k cds haha and then the zero fuse swop well slap me in the face and call me Mandy my god what the hell just happened or in mechanical terms I've a oppo 205 at around 1.5k I borrowed a vitus scd 025mk2 at 19k it was 3 to 5% better than the oppo but my oppo with the fuse was 25 to 30% better than an almost 20k CD player yep that's correct iam not blowing smoke that's what happened the real deal if you can afford to blow that money on a fuse do it it's a dam site cheaper than a 20k CD player and it will sound better. The other wow moment was the lathed CD swop out wow another very noticeable difference something I would definitely look into in the future all of the above is on the cards if money permits massive thanks again Pete truly shocked what an amazing day and my take on the same visit. Yesterday's Home visit was to Matthew Norwell. I'd been promising to get over for a year or two [how time flies]. I've Done lots of these over the last 20 odd years but rarely has everyone of my Party Pieces worked in such spectacular fashion ! My motivation was to demonstrate several "Foo" items that in generally are given a very poor reception, if not described as complete "bollox" by those not in the know ! Equipment taken for the demo Ka Loc Chan's Zero fuse Glasse Audio Lathe treated cd's Phonosophie Cd Flux cd treatment/cleaner Schumann generator Pure silver [4n] solid core mains lead of my own design. olflex cy classic 100 mains cable Mathew has some very expensive and quite exotic kit ...of which I'm certain if you ask him he will describe. I had heard his speakers before, but not his amps or the oppo cdp.. So to set the scene we played a few tracks without "messing" with anything to get a feel of the sound. First up, I asked if I could clean the disc [David Perry?]{ actually Brendan Perry ark} that was playing in the machine...a couple of squirts of the magic fluid and a wipe with a cloth [lint free].. and it was back in. Mathews first Damascenian moment. So the music went from ok but 2 dimensional to wow and 3d. So second up ..being relatively easy we played the uncut cd of enya shepherd moon.......then swapped the disc to the lathed version. Ok within 30 seconds of the intro on track one Mathew was "gob smacked" the oppo seemed to respond to this far better than any player I've heard. Then we swapped a missing link power cable to my olflex ..again difference was obvious my cable adding a warmth to the sound. We used this as a base then to add the zero fuse to my cable. This then produced and OMG moment. if anything it was more pronounced that when I'd used it in my system. The sound now had warm and depth but sparkle ..the sound stage be came deeper and also forward of the speaker line.the air around the instruments increased and was as if his room had been nearly doubled in size [from an aural perspective] his room was about 5m x 4m ish ...so the effect was like adding 2m to the back wall and 2m either side the speakers. So whilst we had the zero in olflex we then re did the phonosophie spray on another couple of discs and also the lathed disc ...If anything these were more pronounced. Leaving me with a rather smug expression ! Then we added another layer of tweaking by setting up the silver puck ..the artkustik raumanimator. This required a few minutes to "energise" the space .... The effect of this is to add space around the music, increase stereo width and depth and focus, amongst other things. This was another wow moment in a series of wow moments so wasn't as wowwy as I've had in the past ! the down side of this was to create a an off sensation almost like nausea. So I unpluged the device and as the created "field effect" decayed we listen to how the sound stage returned [collapsed] to its normal size. We then fitted the zero into the missing link .....with predictably obvious results..oh dear another wow moment So while we were fitting the zero to the missing like we listened to my solid core mains cable......If I say so myself this showed a clean pair of heels to the ML cable. We then tried the schumann resonator but the effect though discernable to me was not rated as wow ! and best be described as subtle! That describes about 5 hours of listening..... I then drove home and was able to enjoy the traffic jams on the a42 and m1 in great and intimate detail a journey that should have been 65mins ...extended to 180 mins ! So thanks again to Mathew allowing me to demonstrate my "foo" not that he was a sceptic .. Turn on secondary accessHiendy Facebook toswitch to wide version username automatic log-in Retrieve password password log in New User Registration Free membership to enjoy membership Quick Navigation Hiendy Home forum Franchise merchant area Second-hand trading area Hiendy Mall Headfidy Hiendy video Leaderboard search for search for Hot search:hifiavmusic Hiendy.com AV Club>>Forums>Media Forums >two-channelsound Forums>Power House [Zero] Fuse latest announcement. Back to list Racewong Direct elevator 1 # 11:43:31 published in 2018-9-3 | Show author | Look at the big picture Power House's flagship fuse "Zero", which is based on the AudioLink agent, has been outstanding since its launch last month, because of its outstanding performance and performance. Therefore, the first batch of goods was sold out in less than one month after the AV show in Hong Kong in August. The company sincerely apologizes to all walks of life. It is now announced to the public that the latest batch of Power House "Zero" will arrive in Hong Kong from the end of September to the beginning of October.Friends who are interested in purchasing can order in advance. For details, please contact us directly (Tel: 2807 1855 / E-mail : audiolink8@biznetvigator.com ). Thank you again for your strong support.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Fancy fuses are just another con-job. People who promote such things are just out to suck money from the gullible. Here's some facts to ponder: * ALL fuses re just non-linear resistors. IOW: A fuse acts by changing it's resistance to varying currents. As a consequence of this fact, any manufacturer who has installed his/her fuse in the DC supply rails of a power amplifier has already degraded the performance of that product. That problem is less certain with low power products, as a regulation stage usually follows the fuse. A fuse, therefore, should ALWAYS be used in the AC side of the power supply and, preferably, only in the AC mains section. * A fuse, like any electronic component, MUST be fully specified. Any manufacturer who fails to properly specify heir product should be avoided and, indeed, will ALWAYS be avoided by a manufacturer of quality products. This is just common-sense. Here is an example of how a proper manufacturer of fuses specifies their product: http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/fuses/littelfuse_fuse_213_datasheet.pdf.pdf * There are a number of good manufacturers of fuses, like Littelfuse™, Eaton Bussmann, Schurter, SIBA and others. NONE of these manufacturers use gold plating, but all use silver plating on their premium products. Silver plating is, far and away, the best material to use when plating a fuse. Gold is stupid. It is, however, the appropriate material to plate a fuse, so it appeals to stupid people. Silver is the best conductor and that is why it is used on some fuses. That said, SOME instrumentation fuses (<100ma) may use gold, as conductivity is less of a problem with very low value fuses. High value fuses will NEVER use gold plating. So, fancy fuses are like fancy mains power leads. They are a tax on stupidity. Edited October 25, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox 5 1
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 If you imagine that fuses do make a difference, then you should be fitting the best fuses available. These are the best available: http://marinenotes.blogspot.com/2012/11/hrc-fuse-or-high-rupturing-capacity-fuse.html HRC fuses are available in difference sizes to regular fuses, so you will need to fit the appropriate fuse holders to your equipment. They are the best available and commonly found in instrumentation equipment and other critical applications. Of course, like your fancy, over-priced fuses, they will not make a jot of difference to the sound of the equipment. They will, however, be cheaper and far, far better specified.
rocky500 Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 Here you go Zaph, some gold plated fuses from a reputable supplier http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/cartridge-fuses/5x20mm-fuses/285.aspx
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted October 25, 2018 Volunteer Posted October 25, 2018 Not really sure how to interpret those pink noise charts but they seem to show a difference. What could that be caused by if it’s not the fuses @Zaphod Beeblebrox?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Not really sure how to interpret those pink noise charts but they seem to show a difference. What could that be caused by if it’s not the fuses @Zaphod Beeblebrox? No idea. There is no indication of the test conditions, nor procedure. IOW: The test results are useless and designed to impress the stupid. 3
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 45 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Here you go Zaph, some gold plated fuses from a reputable supplier http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/cartridge-fuses/5x20mm-fuses/285.aspx The Litteluse 285 series ranges in price between around AU$5.00 ~ AU$13.00. Too expensive, certainly, but properly specified and significantly less expensive than the ridiculously expensive, poorly specified ones. 3
Krispy Audio Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 aaaaaaaand yet another thread where anyone with an opinion differing to Z is called stupid, rather than people who have experience experimenting with various fuses feeling comfortable expressing their opinion as requested by the OP..... 9
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Yngvi said: We need a double blind test. No promoter of over-priced fuses will arrange a proper DBT for his product.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Krispy Audio said: aaaaaaaand yet another thread where anyone with an opinion differing to Z is called stupid, rather than people who have experience experimenting with various fuses feeling comfortable expressing their opinion as requested by the OP..... Are you suggesting that my experience is invalid? I have never measured nor heard a difference between two, correctly specified, fuses. THAT is my experience. My contention is that no listener has ever, under proper test conditions, heard a difference either. I trust that you will remove the -1 rating, since my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. I would argue, somewhat more so, since I've performed objective tests on fancy fuses (I don't recall the brand) and measured no differences between the fancy fuse and a standard, cheap, Chinese fuse. 3
Neo Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I have a positive experience with furutech and telos fuses. They were properly specified: ie 250v rating and the appropriate ampere for that particular equipment, so I replaced like rating in the original equipment with the the like spec upgrade fuse. Both brands are not expensive and my experience with my setup showed me that it was a worthwhile upgrade. Neo Edited October 25, 2018 by Neo 7
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 Quote although I am intrigued by what the more technically minded make of Pete’s pink noise data graph prints. There are appear to be a number of flaws with the measurement process.... although it is hard to tell, as not enough information is provided. It is reasonable clear the person does not understands what they were doing. However... Flawed measurements (or analysis of them) doesn't invalidate the "listening tests". The listening test described seem to fall foul of all the typical traps of listening tests .... but, if there's a such a massive difference reported, then sometimes that doesn't matter (massive differences are obvious). 2
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Not really sure how to interpret those pink noise charts but they seem to show a difference. 1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: No idea. There is no indication of the test conditions, nor procedure. IOW: The test results are useless and designed to impress the stupid. Basically what ZB said.... the screenshots make it look like they were taken from a handheld device. The vertical scale is dB (not time), and the dB range is enormous. There's just nothing we can safely interpret from the data presented. Anyone who understood the data they were presenting would realise that nobody would be able to really read anything from it .... and they would have provided better data, and/or more information about the data. 1 hour ago, Krispy Audio said: aaaaaaaand yet another thread where anyone with an opinion differing to Z is called stupid, rather than people who have experience experimenting with various fuses feeling comfortable expressing their opinion as requested by the OP..... Let's be clear that the measurement results ARE meaningless. This means that either the poster has no idea what he is doing there .... or he is posting data which is intentionally intended to "impress people who don't understand it". As I said, this doesn't mean the listening tests are necessarily "invalid" 2
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Not really sure how to interpret those pink noise charts but they seem to show a difference. What could that be caused by if it’s not the fuses @Zaphod Beeblebrox? I should have added that it is fundamentally relatively easy to measure a fuse. Even under normal operating conditions. An oscilloscope placed across the fuse (make certain it is using differential inputs, or with the scope isolated from a common Earth to the amp under test). The resulting signal can be compared to another fuse under the same test conditions. If there is no measurable difference under such conditions, then there will be no audible difference, nor measured difference at the output of the amplifier. And I'll say again: It is pretty easy to measure a difference Voltage across any fuse, as all fuses exhibit a varying resistance, relative to current flow. Which is why fuses should never be placed in DC supply lines or in series with speakers.
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Yngvi said: We need a double blind test. A listening test is initially a poor way to test "do different fuses change the sound". First you can do an electrical tests. You can see if the signal at the audio output terminals changes with different fuses. This measurement is millions of times more sensitive than anything we can hear ... If the fuse changes the output, then the next questions is (how much?, and) can you hear it. 1
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Krispy Audio said: rather than people who have experience experimenting with various fuses feeling comfortable expressing their opinion as requested by the OP..... Who says that those people saying "fuses don't change the sound" haven't also experimented with fuses? Experiments should be objectively assessed on their design/method, and analysis of results. As mentioned, a "listening test" for "does a fuse change the sound" is a poor choice of experiment for a few obvious reasons. 2
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: I should have added that it is fundamentally relatively easy to measure a fuse. Even under normal operating conditions. An oscilloscope placed across the fuse (make certain it is using differential inputs, or with the scope isolated from a common Earth to the amp under test). The resulting signal can be compared to another fuse under the same test conditions. If there is no measurable difference under such conditions, then there will be no audible difference, nor measured difference at the output of the amplifier. This might not be a great experiment either for answering the question "does a fuse change the sound". We should measure the audio output signal. eg. at the output terminals of the amplifier (or whatever device we are changing fuses in). These measurements can be high resolution, and intricately compared with each other. Measurement error and variance can be purged from the results using a good method, etc. Then once you have a "this is the difference between my two fuses". We can have a second experiment which asks "is the difference between these two signals audible". The analysis of the results can make reference to things like what we would expect to be audible, etc. A good experiment would have a method which sought to control unwelcome variables.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: This might not be a great experiment either for answering the question "does a fuse change the sound". We should measure the audio output signal. eg. at the output terminals of the amplifier (or whatever device we are changing fuses in). I agree, though measuring a difference at the output of an amplifier would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than measuring the differences across the fuse itself. But I suspect you already know this. 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: These measurements can be high resolution, and intricately compared with each other. Measurement error and variance can be purged from the results using a good method, etc. If one could be bothered trying to prove a null (audibly significant) result, then yeah. 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Then once you have a "this is the difference between my two fuses". We can have a second experiment which asks "is the difference between these two signals audible". The analysis of the results can make reference to things like what we would expect to be audible, etc. A good experiment would have a method which sought to control unwelcome variables. Of course. Like that infamous mains lead experiment posted here a few days back. Shockingly bad science.
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: I agree, though measuring a difference at the output of an amplifier would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than measuring the differences across the fuse itself. But I suspect you already know this. I do... it is just that being able to measure (or not) something on the fuse .... does not directly answer the question of does the fuse change the sound (heh, yes, yes, I know....) It is a trivial task to take measurements of audio signals which are many many many times smaller than what is audible.... so you would just do that Edited October 25, 2018 by davewantsmoore
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: I do... it is just that being able to measure (or not) something on the fuse .... does not directly answer the question of does the fuse change the sound. Well, not directly, but we both know that if there is no measurable differences between two different fuses, then there cannot possibly be either a measurable or audible change at the output. Quote It is a trivial task to take measurements of audio signals which are many many many times smaller than what is audible.... so you would just do that Well, I'd just measure across the fuses, because any differences would be more easily noted. Edited October 25, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 We've been here before. The only evidence of fuse measurement I've seen remains a quote from a book, cited on another forum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/fuses-do-affect-sound-the-question-is-how-much.50/ The relevant quote: Quote Moving on, Bob Cordell is his great book "Designing Audio Power Amplifies" did measure fuse THD in an audio output stage. It's section '13.11 Fuse, Relay and Connector Distortion' page 268. Conclusion: "At 20 Hz, amplifier distortion due to the fuse is calculated to be 0.0033 %." So a typical fuse apparently introduces a very small amount of distortion. This is, well, unlikely to be audible, but is a single and really incomplete figure. In the absence of other measurements (shouldn't the manufacturers be able to provide that?) Even so, it leads me to posit some possibilities; 1) Fuses are much worse in Australia/the standard of fuses has gone down so the distortion figure is a few hundred times greater 2) We're back in the land of throwing the phrase "conceptual bias" at each other... 3) Some fuses may "not be just fuses" but have other properties that change the soundwaves and then would sound different. Maybe all of the above?
davewantsmoore Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Well, not directly, but we both know that if there is no measurable differences between two different fuses, then there cannot possibly be either a measurable or audible change at the output. Maybe you didn't measure the right thing about the fuse itself? (Yes, yes, I know). There is no reason in this situation not to measure the actual variable you are directly interested in (the audio output signal). 1 minute ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Well, I'd just measure across the fuses, because any differences would be more easily noted. I don't necessarily agree.... although "easy" is subjective. Taking measurements of audio signals is trivial, and it is exactly the variable we want to assess. If you did (or didn't) note a difference measuring the fuse.... then you haven't actually answered the important question (did the sound change). You would be relying on whatever measurement you took of the fuse, to be representative of what would affect the audio output. You could be safe doing that .... on the other hand, it is unnecessary - and more importantly, excludes people from the analysis who cannot make the leap (or those who may want to debate if the leap is valid). 2
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said: Maybe you didn't measure the right thing about the fuse itself? (Yes, yes, I know). There is no reason in this situation not to measure the actual variable you are directly interested in (the audio output signal). I don't necessarily agree.... although "easy" is subjective. Taking measurements of audio signals is trivial, and it is exactly the variable we want to assess. If you did (or didn't) note a difference measuring the fuse.... then you haven't actually answered the important question (did the sound change). You would be relying on whatever measurement you took of the fuse, to be representative of what would affect the audio output. You could be safe doing that .... on the other hand, it is unnecessary - and more importantly, excludes people from the analysis who cannot make the leap (or those who may want to debate if the leap is valid). Yeah, all good points. I concur. 1
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