Audiophile fuses

[davewantsmoore]

6 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

In the absence of other measurements (shouldn't the manufacturers be able to provide that?)

Yes, but audio measurements are difficult to interpret.... and don't necessarily answer the "is that audible" question.    Manufacturers don't like doing it for these reasons.

 

It's easy to measure and say "we found a difference"..... interpreting this is harder....  My comments before were only trying to say that before you enter a listening test, it is robust to have a "this is the difference we measured" to go a long with it.

6 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

1) Fuses are much worse in Australia/the standard of fuses has gone down so the distortion figure is a few hundred times greater

Trivial to measure if so.

6 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

3) Some fuses may "not be just fuses" but have other properties that change the soundwaves and then would sound different.

Trivial to measure if so.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

52 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

We've been here before.

The only evidence of fuse measurement I've seen remains a quote from a book, cited on another forum:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/fuses-do-affect-sound-the-question-is-how-much.50/

The relevant quote:

 

So a typical fuse apparently introduces a very small amount of distortion. This is, well, unlikely to be audible, but is a single and really incomplete figure. In the absence of other measurements (shouldn't the manufacturers be able to provide that?)

Which backs my original statement that NO fuse should ever be placed in series with a loudspeaker and, preferably, not in series with the DC rails of an amplifier power supply. If the fuses are placed in the secondary of the AC supply, then this position will mitigate the distortion added by the fuses. Even better, would be to keep the fuse to the AC mains only. 

 

Quote

 

Even so, it leads me to posit some possibilities;

1) Fuses are much worse in Australia/the standard of fuses has gone down so the distortion figure is a few hundred times greater

Well, not a crazy statement. Some of the cheap, Chinese fuses available are not great quality. I've noted several problems including fuse wire bonding problems and worse, inability to meet the basic published specs. These problems do not afflict Littelfuse, Bussmann, Schurter and the others. 

 

Quote

2) We're back in the land of throwing the phrase "conceptual bias" at each other...

3) Some fuses may "not be just fuses" but have other properties that change the soundwaves and then would sound different.

 

Maybe all of the above?

The differences between two, properly spec'd fuses is vanishingly small and absolutely inaudible. Fortunately, the cost of a quality fuse is very small. And, if someone REALLY wants to install the very best fuses, HRC fuses are the way to go. These fuses are very expensive, costing upwards of $2.00 ~$300.00 each (normal types typically cost around $10.00 each). The good ones are often silver plated. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Guest vagabond]

Maybe audiophile fuses only work proper if you use a fancy power cord.

[sir sanders zingmore]

59 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

There is no reason in this situation not to measure the actual variable you are directly interested in (the audio output signal).

Isn’t the “audio output signal” the actual sound that comes out of the speakers?

[davewantsmoore]

14 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Isn’t the “audio output signal” the actual sound that comes out of the speakers?

You could use that, although it's a poor choice.    Measuring sound waves is not trivial  (as opposed to measuring the electrical audio output signal of a device).   The measured response changes with any (even tiny) movement of the microphone, and the resolution and repeatability are quite poor.

 

If we ponder the changes in the output that a fuse might be expected to cause .... vs the resolution and repeatability of a SPL measurement....  Then you would not expect to see the change from the fuse in the results, even if it were relatively large.

Edited October 25, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[Ittaku]

I bought $60k worth of amplification second hand with synergistic research black quantum fuses worth about $400 thrown in. I compared the sound with them and the stock fuses provided with the amplifier and couldn't hear a snot of difference so promptly sold them feeling like I had $400 worth of snake oil in my system, in spite of the rest of the amplifiers' cost.

[sir sanders zingmore]

13 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

You could use that, although it's a poor choice.    Measuring sound waves is not trivial  (as opposed to measuring the electrical audio output signal of a device).   The measured response changes with any (even tiny) movement of the microphone, and the resolution and repeatability are quite poor.

 

If we ponder the changes in the output that a fuse might be expected to cause .... vs the resolution and repeatability of a SPL measurement....  Then you would not expect to see the change from the fuse in the results, even if it were relatively large.

This is a bit tricky because the person quoted by the OP seems to be saying that there is a measurable difference in SPL. 

 

Do we simply discount these measurements because because we don’t like them? 

 

The reason I ask that is because I’ve seen people complaining about Shunyata’s measurements of power cord differences, saying that they don’t show SPL differences, only current differences in the cords themselves?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Sir Sanders Zingmore

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

25 minutes ago, vagabond said:

Maybe audiophile fuses only work proper if you use a fancy power cord.

LOL. 

 

BTW, you left out the smiley. Still funny though.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

6 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

This is a bit tricky because the person quoted by the OP seems to be saying that there is a measurable difference in SPL. 

 

Do we simply discount these measurements because because we don’t like them? 

Well, it's not that. What Dave is alluding to is that something as simple as moving a microphone by a couple of mm, opening a curtain in the room, or even if the person performing the measurements moves a cm (VERY, VERY possible) then the resultant measurements will reflect those changes far more readily than changing a fuse. Even the ambient conditions (Temperature, humidity, air pressure, etc) can change audible measurements by measurable amounts. They may even be audible. But fuse differences? Not a chance. 

 

6 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

The reason I ask that is because I’ve seen people complaining about Shunyata’s measurements of power cord differences, saying that they don’t show SPL differencecs only current differences in the cords themselves?

Well, that's probably because the differences in the current flow are VASTLY more measurable than any SPL difference. Do you have a reference?

[rantan]

30 minutes ago, vagabond said:

Maybe audiophile fuses only work proper if you use a fancy power cord.

Yes.

 

It is called a collusion of delusion

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

This is a bit tricky because the person quoted by the OP seems to be saying that there is a measurable difference in SPL.

Tricky?  Not at all.   I cannot interpret the measurements, things as basic as the axis are incorrect  (they are dB with a nonsensical scale, where as the poster refers to it as "time").     There is zero information given about how the data was captured - it appears to be using a handheld device, small movements of the device (especially with pink noise) will produce differences in the results. 

 

Taking the charts at face value (ie reading none of the associated text) there appear to be comically enormous differences in the data.   Something is wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Do we simply discount these measurements because because we don’t like them?

Not at all. 

We "discount" them when we don't agree with the method....   I want to not discount them....   but I can't interpret them.   I can't say whether I expect them to be accurate or not (ie. whether I agree with the method of the experiment) as how they were taken is just not explained.

 

If you just take haphazard "measurements" they will show you anything and everything.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

The reason I ask that is because I’ve seen people complaining about Shunyata’s measurements of power cord differences, saying that they don’t show SPL differences, only current differences in the cords themselves?

Here is one of those PDFs.   Download the PDF here.

 

They fall into the trap that ZB was trying to jump in.    They show a measurable difference between the current flowing in different sizes or geometries of cord.    Basic physics predicts this result (which is good, cos as a wise man once said, ye canne break the laws o physics)

 

What they do not show, is does the audio signal leaving

the device (eg. amplifier) change with these different cords .... and then if they do change .... analyse those results with "would we expect that change to be audible?" ... and follow on with "could we hear it?"  NB - the "could we hear it?" test is quite difficult to do properly , ie. without controlling for variables known to muck up the results. 

 

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Well, it's not that. What Dave is alluding to is that something as simple as moving a microphone by a couple of mm

Yes.  All we know is that the "microphone was in the same place".    Would need to know a little more detail  (like it was on a stand, and nothing was touched between runs, and the microphone was X).

 

It seems like there was a very long pink burst, while a handheld mic was used.    This is a poor test signal, and poor method.... but as mentioned, we just don't really know.

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, rantan said:

collusion of delusion

Probably, but any sort of progress requires people on both sides keep and open mind, and be intelligent and rigorous.

 

People need to understand that the purpose of posting evidence is so that evidence can be scrutinised and rejected when it doesn't stand up.    This is how science works, everybody endeavours to call into question the methods, results, analysis, and conclusions of others.... because when no mud sticks, then it's a close to "true" as we know.

 

If someone posts results/methods/analysis, that cannot be interpreted properly by others, then it means they either don't understand what they're posting .... or it means they "don't care" (for whatever reason).

 

 

There's lots of "non-science-fiction" which says how power cords or similar could possibly have an affect on a stereo.... but when you are designing an electronic device you would be advised to design it to not be limited by what's on the other-side of the mains input socket.    You can poke around in the device while it's in design, and test these things..... if you're in a situation where substituting a lower impedance, or less noisy mains supply actually changes the audio out performance significantly - then you should adjust the design so it doesn't.

[Addicted to music]

3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

.

 

There's lots of "non-science-fiction" which says how power cords or similar could possibly have an affect on a stereo.... but when you are designing an electronic device you would be advised to design it to not be limited by what's on the other-side of the mains input socket.    You can poke around in the device while it's in design, and test these things..... if you're in a situation where substituting a lower impedance, or less noisy mains supply actually changes the audio out performance significantly - then you should adjust the design so it doesn't.

Im absolutely sure that when engineers/ designers are allocated a set of parameters, economics would have dictated that highly glorified component with a high price tag such as a “fuse” will never be implemented in a product rolling of the production line.   if it does cost associated will be factored in making it uncompetitive.  

I could be wrong but I’ve have yet to see one manufacturer recommend a highly glorified “fuse” to be used as an option  to enhance the performance of there products.   I’m also yet to see the same recommendation for an over priced over engineered IEC cord get the same recommendations.  

 

Yet I don’t see Dan D’Agastino, Bruno from Hypex recommending these fuses or IEC power cords. Etc.   

 

If you are really that concern about  a fuse,  do what I would do,  short it out using a 6inch nail....  it would save you some money! 

[davewantsmoore]

 

1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

I could be wrong but I’ve have yet to see one manufacturer recommend a highly glorified “fuse” to be used as an option  to enhance the performance of there products

Indeed.   If they did, they would be expected to provide evidence of the improved performance  ('cos people would ask to see it).

[cdave]

@Laz
"I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in swapping fuses in their equipment and hearing an increase in sound quality. "

On an NAD M51 DAC, yes.
I bought a used Hi-fi tuning supreme fuse off the forum. I thought that it would be of little or no benefit so I can on sell it at cost. I was very surprised in the improvement. I was also surprised at how the sound changed by end for ending the fuse.
Many forum posters had noted the M51 DAC is very sensitive to power. Therefore, my current (untested) theory is the more sensitive a component is to power, the more I'd be inclined to try a different fuse.

[Lazz]

13 hours ago, cdave said:

@Laz
"I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in swapping fuses in their equipment and hearing an increase in sound quality. "

On an NAD M51 DAC, yes.
I bought a used Hi-fi tuning supreme fuse off the forum. I thought that it would be of little or no benefit so I can on sell it at cost. I was very surprised in the improvement. I was also surprised at how the sound changed by end for ending the fuse.
Many forum posters had noted the M51 DAC is very sensitive to power. Therefore, my current (untested) theory is the more sensitive a component is to power, the more I'd be inclined to try a different fuse.

I guess that high quality sensitive equipment may show 'some differences', but I am slightly skeptical but I have never done an a/b listening test.

[cdave]

I guess that high quality sensitive equipment may show 'some differences', but I am slightly skeptical but I have never done an a/b listening test.

I am / have been sceptical of many things in hi-fi. Conflicting opinions on forums dont help.
Where possible I like to "MythBusters" it myself, ideally at a low or no cost. Borrowing, loaning or buying used has been really helpful in changing or confirming my preconceptions and then to consider the value equation.
If I can't trial something, I weigh up the depreciation cost to benefit/fun ratio if I'd want to sell the now used item.
I think a trial period on a fuse would encourage people to see if they work, and if so, lead to more sales. Possibly worth enquiring about?

[joz]

On 25/10/2018 at 1:15 PM, Yngvi said:

We need a double blind test.

 

Not you again!!!

[Ittaku]

9 hours ago, Lazz said:

I guess that high quality sensitive equipment may show 'some differences', but I am slightly sceptical but I have never done an a/b listening test.

I would consider my equipment "high quality sensitive" but I didn't hear a difference between regular fuses and highly renowned audiophile ones. You could always blame my hearing, I guess, but that doesn't change the most important aspect to me - I can't hear a difference so to me they're a waste of money.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Ittaku

[Eggmeister]

6 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I would consider my equipment "high quality sensitive" but I didn't hear a difference between regular fuses and highly renowned audiophile ones. You could always blame my hearing, I guess, but that doesn't change the most important aspect to me - I can't hear a difference so to me they're a waste of money.

$hit me, logic

 

"I can't hear a difference so to me they're a waste of money."

 

you won't go far with that thinking

[Ittaku]

7 minutes ago, Yngvi said:

$hit me, logic

 

"I can't hear a difference so to me they're a waste of money."

 

you won't go far with that thinking

Haha, it's funny how little all the rest of the debates matter in the face of such logic. I can also reel off a list of a whole swag of other components that fall into the same category too

Edited October 26, 2018 by Ittaku

[agelessgoodguy]

Has anyone concerned thought to write to author about his testing, readings and results etc, he's on FB?

[davewantsmoore]

5 hours ago, agelessgoodguy said:

Has anyone concerned thought to write to author about his testing, readings and results etc, he's on FB?

Based on the commentary that was made of the data, No....   but I just shot off a question, and will let you know the answer.

 

 

Basically I asked for more information about the microphone location... and how still the speakers and mic were kept between runs.

 

In short.... there are narrow-band SPL variations between each run which are ENORMOUS.    There has got to be something in the test method which caused them.    Pink noise doesn't seem like a good test signal for this purpose ... but I figured I'd ask a question before going in with that.   

[muzzagruzz]

Not sure if anyone has asked the question, but who is Pete Kendall? What are his qualifications? So many questions arise from his ‘test’, not least of which is his background. 

 

Is he a qualified technician, engineer, scientist? Who is his employer and does he need to declare any interests he may have with the ‘tested’ brands? Without knowing this, the independence of the test is in question. 

 

Other important considerations concern his ‘testing’ methodology. What was the methodology to begin with and what was the intention of the test? 

 

If the intention was to prove or disprove that a fuse has an affect upon the signal generated by an amplifier, then why would he use branded products? No one concerned with a verifiable, independant test would be that obtuse to include branded products that are being tested for efficacy. 

 

That immediately compromises the integrity of the test and outcome as it has the potential to introduce bias. 

 

There is so much wrong with this test that compromises the integrity of the result. It’s not worth the ones and zeros it takes up on the internet servers. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by muzzagruzz

[Addicted to music]

On 26/10/2018 at 9:54 AM, cdave said:

@Laz
"I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in swapping fuses in their equipment and hearing an increase in sound quality. "

On an NAD M51 DAC, yes.
I bought a used Hi-fi tuning supreme fuse off the forum. I thought that it would be of little or no benefit so I can on sell it at cost. I was very surprised in the improvement. I was also surprised at how the sound changed by end for ending the fuse.
Many forum posters had noted the M51 DAC is very sensitive to power. Therefore, my current (untested) theory is the more sensitive a component is to power, the more I'd be inclined to try a different fuse.

Mmmm....

i must have the wrong M51 then....how disappointing....