Beware of Snake Oil & Blind Belief!

[Guzzista]

2 hours ago, bzr said:

Personally, I think you need to explain things a bit more clearly. The number of articles/components that were introduced into the system at the same time, perhaps your level of experience. What you can compare it too to validate your claims, just general shitz that can go a long way to explaining your position & clarifying. I gave up my crystal ball carrying card days long ago when they said 33's were the new badass in 45's speed

Your comment on my character does not deserve a reply.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Guzzista
grammer

[Guzzista]

18 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Guzzista, a number of us are interested in more detail about the "out-of-phase" message. The LED screen of which device gave the message?  Do you have the make and model number of it?

 

_________

 

Based on the photograph, the circuitry looks pretty basic, with no obvious swapping of active and neutral:-

 

I am trying to get that information, and will update as soon as I have it as it is not mine.

[Guzzista]

22 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Guzzista, a number of us are interested in more detail about the "out-of-phase" message. The LED screen of which device gave the message?  Do you have the make and model number of it?

 

_________

 

Based on the photograph, the circuitry looks pretty basic, with no obvious swapping of active and neutral:-

 

CDP is made by Audionet model G2 - message scrolling on screen was "attention mains power polarity inverted".

[andyr]

48 minutes ago, Guzzista said:

CDP is made by Audionet model G2 - message scrolling on screen was "attention mains power polarity inverted".

 

Pretty damn smart CDP, G - I'm impressed! 

 

Maybe @MLXXX might like to comment, given his post @ 11:06pm, last Sunday.

 

Andy

 

 

 

[MLXXX]

5 hours ago, Guzzista said:

CDP is made by Audionet model G2 - message scrolling on screen was "attention mains power polarity inverted".

Thanks. An audionet manual I've found on the net says:

 

6.1.1 Mains phase detection
The correct polarization of mains is important for reasons of audio clarity
and stability. Please connect the mains cord that the hot pin of the wall
outlet is connected to the pin of mains input 13 marked 'PHASE' 14 on
the back panel of the unit. The ART G2 recognizes the incorrect polarization
of the mains plug automatically. Right after switching on the unit
from stand-by mode by pressing the power key on the front panel the
following message will appear in the display in case the mains polarization
is incorrect:
► Attention: ◄
► Mains phase incorrect ◄
If you read the above message, switch off the unit by pressing the power
key. Please wait until the display no longer reads Going to sleep...
Now pull the mains plug and re-insert it into the mains socket rotated by
180°.
When you switch on the unit again, the warning should not appear now.
Important
· If the ART G2 issues the mains polarization warning or no warning at
all for both positions of the mains plug, check the connection to earth
of your mains socket and mains cord. You have to ensure a stable
connection to earth for the ART G2 to work correctly!
 

Although the above might not be the manual for the exact Audionet model it seems reasonable to accept that its content about connection of the mains would apply, at least broadly speaking. We seem to have confirmed that the issue is in fact which way around the active and neutral are connected. And referring to the words above from the manual, it seems that in at least some countries the power plug for the ART G2 can be rotated. So in such a case you'd have a 50% chance of getting the error message if you just plugged in blindly!

 

That is not the situation in the United States provided there is an earth pin on the plug for the power socket. And it is not the case in Australia irrespective of whether the power socket plug has an earth pin. (The active and neutral pins have equal and opposite slants away from the vertical.)

  

In Australia, portable radio cassette players when these were common would often get their mains power from black figure 8 cable terminated in a plastic plug. With some models the plug could be fitted in in only one physical orientation; but with other models you could plug in either way. These portable radio-cassettes with optional mains power were double-insulated appliances  without any earth connection. 

 

On 09/12/2018 at 6:31 PM, MLXXX said:

I could see no apparent swapping of neutral and active but there could -- theoretically -- be a miswiring in the plug. 

If we assume that the CD DVD player power cord was correctly connected to the CD DVD player, and given that there is no apparent swapping of neutral and active inside the power box you bought years ago, based on the photograph of it, then it seems likely that the power connection to the power box, or the power connection from the power box involves a swapping of the blue and brown wires,

 

That would be very poor practice. However it would be unlikely to pose an electrical hazard for equipment designed in Australia, as under Australian regulations the intended neutral side of appliance wiring is treated as "live" and requires the same amount of insulation for a human user as the intended active side of appliance wiring.  

 

Sound quality

 

This is a vexed question, with many people on this forum insisting that some form of power filtering is essential for good sound quality; and others saying it makes no difference for their ears!

I  assume that the Audionet G2 CD/DVD player we are discussing uses a power transformer and is approved for use  in Australia. (In some parts of the world it has been the practice to rectify the mains supply directly without use of a transformer.*)

 

I find rather odd these words (from 6.1.1 quoted above):

"The correct polarization of mains is important for reasons of audio clarity and stability.".

 

What "stability" issue would be involved?  Can anyone offer a technical insight into that?

 

___________

 

* Here's an article on dangers of a transformerless power supply: https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

Edited December 13, 2018 by MLXXX

[andyr]

On 08/12/2018 at 3:14 PM, Monkeyboi said:

That's why you can no longer buy those old triangular shaped double adapters from the 70s.  One side had the active and neutral reversed due to the way they were manufactured back then.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

 

Well, that's not the case with the 'Ring Grip' one I have, Alan.  I took it to pieces last night and saw that the brass assemblies that plug into the "/ \" slots in the wall socket are each connected to the same side of the "/ \" slots on the 45 deg sides.

 

So both maintain correct active & neutral.

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

It just goes to show. I have "finally" got my two monobloks plugged into my stand alone 40amp circuit. 2 GPO inputs only. The difference is amazing, even with my cheap Grays Online Lenova Laptop ($150) and a Topping D10 ($100). Go good mains always

[andyr]

3 hours ago, Wimbo said:

It just goes to show. I have "finally" got my two monobloks plugged into my stand alone 40amp circuit. 2 GPO inputs only. The difference is amazing, even with my cheap Grays Online Lenova Laptop ($150) and a Topping D10 ($100). Go good mains always

 

Great to hear, W - and I'm not surprised.    (But be aware there are people here who'll say that bcoz you didn't DBT the difference ... you're imagining it!  )

 

When you say "40a circuit", I'm assuming:

• 40a MCB, and
• 40a wiring?

 

I'm envious - although I specified 13 separate circuits for hifi, for my new house (one for each component), bcoz of the number of circuits, I could only have 20a MCBs.  But I used 32a wiring in the walls.

 

Andy

 

[bzr]

On 13/12/2018 at 8:46 PM, Guzzista said:

Your comment on my character does not deserve a reply.

 

And where would that be Oh butt hurt one...

[Wimbo]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

Great to hear, W - and I'm not surprised.    (But be aware there are people here who'll say that bcoz you didn't DBT the difference ... you're imagining it!  )

 

When you say "40a circuit", I'm assuming:

• 40a MCB, and
• 40a wiring?

 

I'm envious - although I specified 13 separate circuits for hifi, for my new house (one for each component), bcoz of the number of circuits, I could only have 20a MCBs.  But I used 32a wiring in the walls.

 

Andy

 

Yeah, I used to be an electrician decades ago, ( another Failure) but my bro is one too and he did it for me.

[Monkeyboi]

On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:22 AM, andyr said:

 

Well, that's not the case with the 'Ring Grip' one I have, Alan.  I took it to pieces last night and saw that the brass assemblies that plug into the "/ \" slots in the wall socket are each connected to the same side of the "/ \" slots on the 45 deg sides.

 

So both maintain correct active & neutral.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

The type you have is one of the newer versions (see pic).  The old type I was referring to has the earth pins directly opposite each other at the apex of the triangle which is quite different to the current versions which you can still buy.  On the old versions the only thing that was wired correctly between the two outlets was the earth pin (thank goodness for that) whilst on one outlet the active and neutral were reversed with respect to the input (male pins) .   

 

I will take a ferret around the storeroom and see if I can find one of these older types so I can pull it apart and photograph the innards. It may have been binned as they are not compliant and if it got accidentally used and there was an incident.... well you appreciate the liability aspect in the workplace.  Only ever retained one for 'show and tell' purposes with students.

\  /

  |

  |

/  \

 

Personally I'm not in favour of using strip power boards either.  We purchased some rather expensive ones which we had problems of them arcing so they got returned for a refund.  We now almost exclusively use 4 outlet portable RCD types as all the outlets are from switched wall outlet style sockets.  Much safer and approved for use in all states in Australia whereas double adapters are banned in Victorian workplaces and not recommended in Queensland.  There are currently no restrictions in domestic situations that I am aware of.

 

Cheers,

Alan R. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Monkeyboi
added symbol diagram

[audiofeline]

1 hour ago, Monkeyboi said:

...Personally I'm not in favour of using strip power boards either.  We purchased some rather expensive ones which we had problems of them arcing so they got returned for a refund.  We now almost exclusively use 4 outlet portable RCD types as all the outlets are from switched wall outlet style sockets.  Much safer and approved for use in all states in Australia whereas double adapters are banned in Victorian workplaces and not recommended in Queensland....

 

Is this an example of the 4 outlet portable RCD you referred to? 

What advantage does it have over a powerboard, apart from an in-built residual current device (RCD) safety switch for protection against electric shock.  Does it have over-load protection and other "features" in powerboards?

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Monkeyboi said:

Hi Andy,

 

The type you have is one of the newer versions (see pic).  The old type I was referring to has the earth pins directly opposite each other at the apex of the triangle which is quite different to the current versions which you can still buy. 

 

Cheers,

Alan R. 

 

 

Yes, that's exackly what I have, Alan ('xept mine are a bit battered/scratched!).

 

What you call the 'old' version must be 'ancient' - as I purchased mine at least 20 years ago! 

 

1 hour ago, Monkeyboi said:

Personally I'm not in favour of using strip power boards either.  We purchased some rather expensive ones which we had problems of them arcing so they got returned for a refund.  We now almost exclusively use 4 outlet portable RCD types as all the outlets are from switched wall outlet style sockets.  Much safer and approved for use in all states in Australia whereas double adapters are banned in Victorian workplaces and not recommended in Queensland.  There are currently no restrictions in domestic situations that I am aware of.

 

Nowadays, I don't use double adapters anywhere in my house.  My only use of my Ring Grip is during testing of the 'right' way round to connect power transformer primaries to 'active' & 'neutral'.

 

Andy

 

[eltech]

On 08/12/2018 at 3:28 PM, Guzzista said:

 

Active and neutral are not swapped. I drew out the schematic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here it is....

 

[MLXXX]

7 minutes ago, eltech said:

On 08/12/2018 at 2:28 PM, Guzzista said:

 

Active and neutral are not swapped.

I agree they don't appear to be swapped inside the case. It's still an open question whether there's a wiring error outside the case.

[eltech]

Hmm.. something weird going on at the load end.

 

There is a shielded cable connected to an inductor which connects to neutral. But is that a resistor in line with the neutral??? I'm having trouble making it out from that photo.

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech

[eltech]

The inductor from shield to neutral will be negating any effect of the shield...

[MLXXX]

11 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

I will take a ferret around the storeroom and see if I can find one of these older types so I can pull it apart and photograph the innards. It may have been binned as they are not compliant and if it got accidentally used and there was an incident.... well you appreciate the liability aspect in the workplace.  Only ever retained one for 'show and tell' purposes with students.

\  /

  |

  |

/  \

 

The closest I've been able to find on the net to the above external description is a design where the earth pin was near the outer edges:

 

However I'd be extremely surprised if the well known manufacturer Clipsal, the apparent manufacturer of the pictured double adaptor, would have failed to ensure correct connections for neutral and active. 

@Monkeyboi, was the type you saw made by an obscure manufacturer?

[Monkeyboi]

11 hours ago, audiofeline said:

 

Is this an example of the 4 outlet portable RCD you referred to? 

What advantage does it have over a powerboard, apart from an in-built residual current device (RCD) safety switch for protection against electric shock.  Does it have over-load protection and other "features" in powerboards?

 

The power outlets are essentially the same as the normal switched outlets you find on the wall.  Whilst all modern approved power strips should be fitted with overload protection not all have switched outlets.  As I mentioned earlier we purchased some expensive power (strip type) boards with overload and surge protection but we found the sockets were actually of poor quality and arced. 

 

Lesson learned.  Price is not always an indicator of quality.  Whilst the RCD type shown in your reply takes up considerably more space in a transit case than the flat strip types, the Australian approved HPM and Clipsal RCD types are the only types accepted in many government and corporate sites of which my company visits and deals with on a regular basis.  Of course the same requirements aren't enforced in domestic situations and therefore an arcing powerboard is not a workplace fire risk liability in a private home.

 

In answer to your question.  Yes the RCD types my company uses (and I use the same types at home if we need to have more outlets on a temporary basis )have a 10A circuit breaker combo RCD.  If you take a look at the blue reset switch on the one you illustrated it should show the trip current.  Most of these units are 10A but you can buy 15A units.  They have a 3 pin plug on the end of the flexible cable that has a larger than normal earth pin that will only go into a 15A outlet.

 

In conclusion I have made the value judgement that workplace safety take precedence over non-RCD power strips and that includes my home where the safety of my loved ones, friends, visitors and tradies comes first.  Just my 2c worth.  Others may have alternative ideas and I have no problem with their choices. 

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Monkeyboi]

11 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Yes, that's exackly what I have, Alan ('xept mine are a bit battered/scratched!).

 

What you call the 'old' version must be 'ancient' - as I purchased mine at least 20 years ago! 

 

 

Nowadays, I don't use double adapters anywhere in my house.  My only use of my Ring Grip is during testing of the 'right' way round to connect power transformer primaries to 'active' & 'neutral'.

 

Andy

 

Yes Andy.  The type I am referring to were used in the 60s and possibly into the early 70s.  Brown bakelite from memory.  I must make a concerted effort to find one of these.  I hope I haven't thrown it out but as you can probably appreciate it hasn't just been left in a draw accessible for anyone to just plug in and use.

 

Just a sideline note.  In the mid 80s a work colleague who was also into hi-fi was renting a house.  He always had problems with noise and hum on his system since the day he moved into it.  Something went wrong with the electric hot water system so an electrician was sent to repair it.  Whilst the electrician was there Bruce asked him if he could explain the hum on his stereo system.  On further investigation it appeared that there was no earth on the GPO.  In fact none of the GPOs in the entire house were earthed.  Shocked by the discovery that the GPOs weren't earthed but more so by the fact that when the house was built it wasn't mandatory to earth any of the GPOs.  Fortunately today all WA dwellings have to be wired with earthed GPOs and the power circuits protected by circuit breakers and RCDs.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Monkeyboi]

59 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

The closest I've been able to find on the net to the above external description is a design where the earth pin was near the outer edges:

 

However I'd be extremely surprised if the well known manufacturer Clipsal, the apparent manufacturer of the pictured double adaptor, would have failed to ensure correct connections for neutral and active. 

@Monkeyboi, was the type you saw made by an obscure manufacturer?

Very similar.  Not sure of the brand but in the 60s they were commonplace as many houses didn't have dual GPOs.

I recall opening one up as they didn't have the security screws today's types have.  Inside there were brass strips arranged as in my attached diagram.  The active and neutral didn't crossover like in the modern types.  Pity you don't have one to check yourself.  IIRC I had one stashed away for "show and tell" purposes.  I must make an effort to find it.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Monkeyboi]

3 hours ago, eltech said:

Active and neutral are not swapped. I drew out the schematic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here it is....

 

The ferrite bead over one of the leads of the low power resistor is a low value inductor.

What is the back blob in the top right hand corner of the box?  Looks like there is an enamel coated wire going to it????

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Misternavi]

if it is the brand that i think it is, i bought this many years ago (over 10yrs ago)
one day a friend came over to my place and we tried my system with and without the powerbox and it made a huge difference in sound quality.

i think the filtering was killing the sound.

listed it on ebay the next day.

[sir sanders zingmore]

What was the brand?

[eltech]

Did someone say power box.....

I had one of those and sold it.

Replaced it with

https://www.altronics.com.au/p/k6045-mains-line-filter-kit/

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech