Speaker coupling & isolation

[Candyflip]

14 hours ago, jakeyb77 said:

Not me..... this time!

must say though I’ve recently put the SVS isolation feet on my PB-2000 and it’s made a huge difference in the positive. 

Apologies- it was @mloutfie  

[mloutfie]

Ah the isoprop. It's hasn't been moved out of my system so long I forgot it's there

[maxspl]

 

Tried the Townshend springs but sounds the same as just sitting on thick carpet with foam furniture sliders underneath so the sliders are now permanent additions. 

[crisis]

9 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

There's little black and white in the matter.    Intuitively, you might expect that the speaker should remain rigidly fixed in space.... but it's not really that simple.

Mechanically speaking it would seem consistent to have them rigid in keeping with the practice of having solid cabinets and firmly attached drivers.

9 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Before you can understand "what's best" .... You need to quantify the actual problem you are having....  and examine "what is best?" in the context of solving the issue.

 

There doesn't appear to be an obvious "issue" however nothing is perfect. I really think my room needs attention first but at some stage this may be worth an experiment.

[crisis]

15 hours ago, Aperalim said:

I did too for over 35 years until now.

 

A friend has used these in his system and they are incredibly effective. Did you watch the video through completely?  I thought Max explains the physics that clarifies that by comparing velocities of the distortion feeding into cabinet from mechanical coupling versus the driver's sound wave propagation.

Not all but I think I have seen it or another one by him before. I'm not sure it is entirely reconciled nor is the relationship with the vibrations and why they would affect the speaker.

[rowbo]

Hey there - so i was sifting to all of the replies and suggestions and naturally didn't come across something for my 'specific' sitchee-ay-shun...(i probably skimmed some of the pages)

I have my system & speakers on a tiled floor - entire living area and kitchen is tiled - i have a rug in front of the system which goes all the way to the listening couch. I did just purchase some vibrapod isolators from Decibel Hifi (already cant wait for them arrive) - which i was going to stick  to the bottom of my speakers and amp rack.

But i was just wanting to clarify - I never thought of using a board that the speakers are spiked into with the isolators stuck under the board. Would there really be much more improvement doing this and is the jury out on whether it would be a wood board or another tile/concrete etc...?

Cheers :-)

[Guest Muon N']

@rowbo As in this thread there are those that have found it beneficial, myself I have heard the benefits on both wood and concrete floors.

 

My speakers ML-1's on solid spiked steel stands, carpeted concrete floors, and some friends Richter Harlequin Mk2 floor standing speakers on wood floors, as just two examples. There are White brand anti-vibration blocks under the bamboo boards even though they are not visible in that pic. This is my and my friend's experience.

 

Oops! can't find a pic with the Harlequin's, but have one where he was trying some Wizards out, his other speakers are to the side, so that is one example of wood floor and one with concrete floor.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Muon N'

[Guest Muon N']

@rowbo Forgot to address one of your questions.

 

Different materials/substrates have different resonant frequencies, some are kinder to audio than others, I tried Concrete pavers, Sand stone pavers, and Bamboo, the Bamboo produced a much better subjective audible result for myself and friends.

 

I also have a friend with Aurum Cantus Melody 103 speakers on a wood floor, and the combination of bamboo cutting boards from Ikea on the Anti-vibration rubber blocks also helped him significantly.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Muon N'

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, rowbo said:

Would there really be much more improvement doing this

No.

[Guest Muon N']

15 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

No.

Have you even tried it?

 

Edit: doesn't matter, as if you have an expectation bias that the result will be negative or a null result that is just as powerful as expectation bias in favour of the positive.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Muon N'

[buddyev]

@rowbo It’s a matter of suck it and see - analyse your situation and try a few cheap things. Do you need coupling or isolation in your situation? Is your timber floor bouncy, is it a solid but resonant timber floor, is it concrete etc. 

 

This is the best result for me so far - the floor is solid but acting like a boom box. Not too badly. 

I just put some Bunnings rubber isolation pads under spikes/discs. It’s way better than spikes/ discs onto floor I’ve used for years, or spikes/discs onto timber slab with isolation pads underneath. 

Seems to me there’s no point keeping the spikes - they’re not doing anything useful. I’ll sit the stands directly on the pads tomorrow. 

Dust on gloss black isn’t the best look - my beautiful study looks like a building site.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by buddyev

[andyr]

Agreed!    (Ditch the witch spikes!  )

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

My experience with Spiking and rigidity  is mainly to stop the tweeter moving in the vertical plane and thats all.

Focus and presence is important to me. I have just bought a pair of Gale 401A's and have put them on the stands my JBL 4301B's were on (Properly).

I had to add some some garden sleeper off cuts to the stands to get the Gales the height I want. This is by no means perfect and as in any situation, I hate adding more. It doesn't work IMO.

Anyway, whatever Bass I have is extremely detailed and easy to here, which I have found over the years hard to perceive in a lot of speakers.

I always remember John Burnett telling me (I think it was him) that having Bass drivers too close to the ground, colours the sound enormously because of the vertical height of the soundwave. Imagine if speakers were designed where all bass drivers were on the top, away from the floor with the tweeter still at ear height.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Wimbo

[zydeco]

My experience with Spiking and rigidity  is mainly to stop the tweeter moving in the vertical plane and thats all.
Focus and presence is important to me. I have just bought a pair of Gale 401A's and have put them on the stands my JBL 4301B's were on (Properly).
I had to add some some garden sleeper off cuts to the stands to get the Gales the height I want. This is by no means perfect and as in any situation, I hate adding more.

What does the last part mean? “... by no means perfect and I hate adding more” And what height stands are you using with the Gales? The original stands are 20” which puts tweeter well below ear but I’ve not seen suitable 24-26” stands

[Addicted to music]

@buddyev

 

best $4 I’ve ever spent, the stupid thing was, why didn’t I do this earlier when I moved in?   A Homer Simpson moment; doh!  Silly me!

[Wimbo]

8 hours ago, zydeco said:

What does the last part mean? “... by no means perfect and I hate adding more” And what height stands are you using with the Gales? The original stands are 20” which puts tweeter well below ear but I’ve not seen suitable 24-26” stands

The sleeper off cuts create a less then adequate connection between them and the speakers. The distance from the floor to the bottom of the speaker is 600mm. 

I prefer this to 500. I'm more into simplicity then adding material or electronics to fix a fault. But the sleeper off cuts will do for now.

I was actually thinking of using one of the off cuts under my Preamp. The sleepers are 10cm thick. 

[rowbo]

Thanks so much for the replies and discussion - ridiculously helpful :-) 

I think I'll start with Buddyev's advice - 'suck it see' (has worked for me in the past too!). If i have any noticeable difference (to my basic ears) between speakers on pods on tiles vs. speakers spiked on platform on pods, I'll report back and stick a photo in for good measure.

It looks like i wont get those vibrapods until Monday so it'll be a few days before i advise. 

But thanks again !

[Guest Muon N']

11 minutes ago, rowbo said:

Thanks so much for the replies and discussion - ridiculously helpful

I think I'll start with Buddyev's advice - 'suck it see' (has worked for me in the past too!). If i have any noticeable difference (to my basic ears) between speakers on pods on tiles vs. speakers spiked on platform on pods, I'll report back and stick a photo in for good measure.

It looks like i wont get those vibrapods until Monday so it'll be a few days before i advise. 

But thanks again !

For 4 bucks worth also testing with the rubber anti-vibration blocks, can get them from bunnings.

[davewantsmoore]

19 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Have you even tried it?

Yes.... to varying degrees of extremity and craziness ..... not just the typical "footer" people would put under speakers, but thinks like lifting speakers off the ground with rubber straps, wires, string, on/off platforms supporting them ... with speakers ranging from heavy shoeboxes, or relatively lightweight horns with 1m wide mouths.

 

All the while, the laws of physics says the "extra platform spiked under the speaker, which is then isolated" .... will do nothing (at all) significant.

 

 

Isolation in general (ie. the very low Fs isolation being discussed) ... has more merit.

19 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Edit: doesn't matter, as if you have an expectation bias that the result will be negative or a null result that is just as powerful as expectation bias in favour of the positive.

That seems like a poor reason to disregard what I say, before you understand why I said it.... or referencing it back to any physical science.

 

<shrug>

[Guest Muon N']

@davewantsmoore deleted, no point

 

I think it best that you and I never engage each other on here again

Edited February 22, 2019 by Muon N'

[davewantsmoore]

36 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Poor reasoning?

Yes.
You wondered if I had tried it  (ie.  you have no idea why I said what I did) .... then you said it doesn't matter because 'expectation bias'.

Quote

You couldn't even work out who was required to indicate in that lane merge situation I posted a while back

I'd love to go back and look at the posts, but I can't find them (please link them if you can).

 

From memory, I made an error in fact....  which is extremely different from what we are discussing here (an error in logic/reasoning ... or just an error in good manners).

Edited February 22, 2019 by davewantsmoore

[Guest Muon N']

@davewantsmoore you have now made the list, the first so you are special :)

[cdave]

A successful (free) experiment with a sprung timber floor was the addition of cork to the Bunnings anti vibration pads.
So now my spiked speakers are on top of 30mm Granite plinths (free kitchen bench top off cuts), on small blocks of Bunnings rubber now on cork against the floor.
Interestingly it sounded best with the rubber against the Granite and cork on the floor and not the other way around.
For the test I cut some wine bottle corks in half lengthwise and set them with the semi circle radius against the floor (minimum contact) and flat cut side against the rubber.
PS Drinking the wine didn't skew the results

[bzr]

1 hour ago, Muon N' said:

@davewantsmoore you have now made the list, the first so you are special

I thought I was on "the List", not fair Dave... you stealing my thunder again????

[075Congo]

I have used a set of Townshend Audio Speaker Bars (Green Dot) under my current Vandersteen Treos for several years to excellent effect. Talking with Mike Lenehan about the vibration isolation spring system he currently uses in the ML5 and possibly in a ML2 Stand design (in the future); the effect on the ML5 performance was exceptional. The selection of the type of spring design and value is in the "black art" receptacle; too much for my old brain. The Townshend Audio videos are fascinating particularly the London Earth Tremor graphing and in particular how they can effect the performance of speaker units. One thing I found tricky was sending Max Townshend an email....still waiting!

Cheers