Paul R Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 I listen to music. Music that moves me. Music that educates me. Classical, jazz, pop, jpop kpop, svea pop, anything really. Spanish, Portuguese, French, any where we travel to. Greenland rock? I listen through a two channel stereo system. Our system has evolved over the years. Valves, solid state, combination of the two. Bi-polar loudspeakers, or moving coil? Loved the Maggie 2Cs but bass deficient. Many iterations. Still with moving coil. Now a system that fits our needs. Financially and sonically. We can afford lots more but choose not to. The mortal sins of avarice, greed, et al, come to mind. The reality is the pleasure you derive from the listening. Listen to audio quality or the soul of the music? The quality and decay of the cymbal in the nth bar of that song? Or the musicality and spirituality of a particular reading of a specific concerto. Nat King Cole vs Michael Buble? Doris Day? Rosemary Clooney? Dinah Washington? Ella? We attend at the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra as subscribers through each year. We buy lots of CDs. Classical, jazz, pop, et al. Why? Just because we can. So where do we stand today? Sounds or the soul of music? No offence, but this is a discussion that needs to be had? Music or the mechanics there of? Any 2c's worth considered. Lets talk turkey and the cost of the Rolls Royce! Paul R 6 1
davewantsmoore Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, Paul R said: So where do we stand today? Sounds or the soul of music? No offence, but this is a discussion that needs to be had? Music or the mechanics there of? Any 2c's worth considered. This comes up a lot over the years ..... it seems that some people get the impression that those who would look at improving their audio reproduction systems "objectively", eg. by looking at measurements of their amplifier or speaker ..... have somehow "lost touch" and are not interested in music any more. There is also a belief that the more you try to improve a reproduction system through such objective means .... the more you "kill the soul of it" ... or make it sound "sterile and not like real music". The thing is, you can try to follow "objective means" of building and improving a playback system, and you can completely ruin the sound.... and make it sound dead, lifeless, soulless, etc .... but if you do a good job of using those objective means to improve your playback system.... then you just uncover more of the soul of the music (that was in the recording, just obscured from you). I certainly don't design, build, measure speakers endlessly because I like listening to "audio" .... rather than "music". If anyone is using a technique to design/setup an audio system which doesn't result in "better sounding music" .... then they're doing something wrong, not matter what their justification for their method. 8 1
Guest Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 26 minutes ago, Paul R said: So where do we stand today? Sounds or the soul of music? No offence, but this is a discussion that needs to be had? Music or the mechanics there of? Well said. Agree that too often, we chase the better sound and forget to sit back and listen to the music. What emotions it invokes, what feelings it engenders? I am just as guilty as others and recently went thru a "Marie Kondo" transformation of my setup to focus more on the music ...
gemini07 Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 I've got two really great reality checks (for me anyway): Does the sound bring a smile to your face? Is it real? I accept that not everyone rates the second point - but each to their own..
audiofeline Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 Improving the audio is about improving the enjoyment of the music. When I listen to good reproduction, the music dominates. There are no speakers, there are no electronics, there is just the emotion of the music. That's why - when I've been to hifi shows and had private auditions of hifi systems that are way better than my system - I can get lost in music that I wouldn't normally buy or listen to. All of a sudden the barriers to listening are gone, and i'm not listening to reproduction, I'm listening to talented humans. And that engages me. And I go home thinking that I thought I would never be able to appreciate a particular artist that I had heard and enjoyed. I had this experience a few nights ago (which I also wrote about elsewhere) listening to my 2-channel stereo system. I had a newly acquired highly-regarded SACD - for it's audio sonics and performance (the Living Stereo Gershwin). I was looking forward to hearing it, and waited until there was an evening when I was relaxed and there would be no expected interruptions. But the first half of the SACD I did not enjoy. Something was not right about the music, it didn't sound like the orchestra was in front of me, it was horrible. The reproduction prevented me from engaging with the music, and I was irritated that I couldn't do that. After trying to listen to half of the CD I couldn't take it any more, and was doubting all the good comments I had read about the disk and I was doubting my ears. I looked at the player, and it indicated that it was playing the 3-channel recording in multichannel mode (l+r+centre). I thought the player's default had been previously set to 2-channel (my system), and I rectified this issue. When I resumed playing, immediately the stereo had vanished. I was able to be there with the performance, my analytical mind ("why does it sound like this") had gone. The piano sounded like a piano, the dynamics sounded correct, the imaging was solid. I didn't have a hifi anymore. I was experiencing a musical performance. It was good, and afterwards I was able to correlate the appraisals of the disk I had read with the music I heard. Now although I think I have a very nice system, it's nowhere in the very-high end league that many of our SNA friends have. When I've made improvements, it's been to remove the "stereo system" and to bring out more of the music. Not all my tweaks have done that, and fortunately those tweaks have been undone. My ultimate aim is to remove any perception of the mechanics, so there is only the soul. 4
Assisi Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: but if you do a good job of using those objective means to improve your playback system.... then you just uncover more of the soul of the music (that was in the recording, just obscured from you). @davewantsmoore I totally agree. I have gone down the path of serious quality components. Together they bring out special aspects of the recording, the life of the playback and the listening that make it a real feel good experience. John Edited March 18, 2019 by Assisi
rocky500 Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 I find some music can be no better than a nursery rhyme but still can move you. Buying new equipment can have a huge enjoyment factor too even sometimes better than the music itself. So no problem from me if enjoyment comes from any angle, enjoying the music, enjoying the equipment, its all good in the end. Each to their own. I think no way is better, just that you get something out of it. 2
bzr Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 The more you listen to your system, the much better it is.
mwhouston Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 I’m into the music more than the gear. Being a 100% DIYer I’m not chasing the latest commercial gear to listen to but enjoying the DIY hobby and loving my four hours of serious listening every day. Unfortunately there are so many who listen to thier gear and not the music but different strokes for different blokes. How many times do you get stuck with the one track wonder, demo tracks and gear analysis music. One track to no where. If I pullout a 5 LP box set, the lot gets played not just the the gear revealing tracks. One track wonders lead you no where, a dead end path for which most just seek another. My gear is modest but my drive to just listen to the music is demanding. 2
Blk plastic Posted March 18, 2019 Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) I like hearing whats on the records and discs, no more no less. My system gets me pretty close to that and that makes me happy. I haven't needed to sell a kidney to achieve this. I crack up when I read about blokes selling brand new gear three weeks after they bought it in order to upgrade. If that's your thing then more power to you. Towards the end of last year my hifi dealer was surprised to hear that I was happy to sit where I am for a while, but then he's in the business of selling hifi. I listen to music. Edited March 18, 2019 by Blk plastic 1
jeromelang Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 Once in a while some bloke will come and brag about being a "music lover". Why is that?
Guest DarkNark Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 15 hours ago, Paul R said: Music or the mechanics there of? If one person gets enjoyment out of the specs, the tweaks, the changing out the gear for their perceived ultimate synergy/resolution and misses the soul of the music because they are too busy critically listening, then I have no problem with that. Personally I enjoy the research, the changes, the tried tweaks, educating myself, reading about other peoples journeys on SNA as well as the music. I have a friend who calls me an audiophile, (I detest that label), and he considers himself a music lover. Does that mean I am not a music lover? Does that mean I miss the soul of the music? Possibly. The reality for me is that I critically listen for 1% of the time. I find it takes too much concentration and is not relaxing. A lot of the time I have my system playing while I do stuff in the house. I am not fully absorbed in the music and I would definitely be missing the soul of the music, but it still gives me enjoyment. Regardless if I am critically listening, enjoying a beer with friends, listening on my own in the dark or washing the dishes in the kitchen, when I turn my system on it makes me smile. I don't understand the need to put a label on people, or indeed perceived seperate camps in the same hobby. This hobby is many things, too many people.
PleasantSounds Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, DarkNark said: I don't understand the need to put a label on people, or indeed perceived seperate camps in the same hobby. This hobby is many things, too many people. +1
was_a Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Well, I would describe myself as a music lover, since it dominates my day job, out-of-house entertainment (attending concerts), TV-viewing (Medici-TV etc) and reading (pedagogy), and of course in-home listening. My hi-fi system is simple these days, and relatively cheap compared to a decade or 15 years ago when I spent HEAVILY in the chase for improvements. My system cost about $80K ($60K, and $20K lost in selling-on equipment), and for a low-middle-income earner that was absurd. I will readily admit that back then it was more about the audio than the music. So when I read most of your posts declaring that it's all about the music, I have to say I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! I'm sure there was a time when it wasn't always like that? Perhaps this still applies sometimes? Admit it! Edited March 19, 2019 by was_a 1
Guest Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 26 minutes ago, DarkNark said: when I turn my system on it makes me smile. That is the key! 28 minutes ago, DarkNark said: I don't understand the need to put a label on people, or indeed perceived seperate camps in the same hobby. This hobby is many things, too many people. Can't speak for others, but I was too involved in tweaks that I forgot the reason for getting a Hifi system in the first place i.e. enjoy the music. It is not a matter of seperating people into camps. I think it is a matter of getting the right balance...
Guest DarkNark Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Can't speak for others, but I was too involved in tweaks that I forgot the reason for getting a Hifi system in the first place i.e. enjoy the music. It is not a matter of seperating people into camps. I think it is a matter of getting the right balance... Agreed it's about balance. It's not up to me to decide what is the correct balance is for anyone. If someone kept on the upgrade/swap/tweak path,"forgot" about the music and missed the soul of the music, and it made them happy then thats all that matters. Do I think they are possibly missing out? Probably, but that is here nor there. This hobby has many facets that attracts people for different reasons. Music v Audio? I think the correct answer is a personal one and more than likely a mix of the two. I just don't see a right and wrong answer. Certainly if the OP is a gentle reminder to sometimes slow down and smell the roses (Or the music) I whole heartedly agree. Nice that you found your balance and rediscovered your passion for listening to music Snoop!
mwhouston Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said: That is the key! Can't speak for others, but I was too involved in tweaks that I forgot the reason for getting a Hifi system in the first place i.e. enjoy the music. It is not a matter of seperating people into camps. I think it is a matter of getting the right balance... So many have gone down this road to no where.
Guest deanB Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 My equipment related curiosity levels peaked a year or two ago and were quite short lived compared with other near life long passions, music being the most enduring. I realised that I was starting to obsess about equipment to a point where it felt like an addiction was forming. Whereas music, the financial outlay, collecting/storage and enjoyment of has never felt like that. As lovers of recorded music reproduction, would we better off insisting on higher standards from the source; i.e the recording and manufacturing process. Wouldn't that be an added value boost for all systems, from the humble to the spectacular. Full disclosure though, my equipment curiosity and experimentation did peak during a time of plentiful disposable income. Who's to say I wouldn't go all junkie-needs-his-fix again given another plentiful bounty scenario?
anandpkumar Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 I believe that music (like religion) is a personal choice. We are all different - our background, tastes, choices all vary and that is the beauty of being human. As others have mentioned, putting a label such as 'audiophile' or 'music lover' is a very limited representation of the diversity that makes us who we are. Our own preferences may vary depending upon our mood - sometimes we prefer background music, sometimes we prefer critical listening. I do believe that music has immense power - to move you and connect you to something deeper. How we listen and get that enjoyment - through a $100 boom-box or a $10,000 system is purely a personal choice. 1
allthumbs Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 Personally I am chasing "a sound" and I'll know it when I hear it. I know it doesn't reside in the amplification or the player (I am not referring to vinyl systems), it is all in the speakers. And there is such a vast array to choose from these days and I have a modest collection, none of them perfect, but perfect in their own way. And I am not even sure that if I were to find that sound that it would be an end game move. I tend to pick and play music spontaneously and it can be just about anything, these days lots of classical music and I love churning my speakers every 3 or 4 months just for the change up. And it is not to get to a closer representation of the reality of the performance, but to get a different slant on the performance, a slightly different sonic landscape. I don't necessarily prefer one over the other, but like the differences each set of speakers brings to the recording. Usually I scratch my head, enjoy the initial moment and then let it go as I go on playing music.
Satanica Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, allthumbs said: Personally I am chasing "a sound" and I'll know it when I hear it. I know it doesn't reside in the amplification or the player (I am not referring to vinyl systems), it is all in the speakers. And the room they're in and the position of the room they're in. The only way to really come close to hearing just your speakers is to listen to them outside when it's quiet. 1
allthumbs Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, Satanica said: And the room they're in and the position of the room they're in. Always the same room, pretty much in the same position, two sets of stands, one is just for the Sansui's. My very modest collection. Klipsch RP160-M Axis Voice Box S AR19's Connoisseur ELAC EL100 Sansui AS-100's Richter Merlin V's (these are moving on).
t_mike Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 I'm lucky to be in a position to do both, collect music and try different pieces of equipment. The day will come when this won't be so, at that point music will win out. One day I hope to reach retirement and everything in life will downsize. It's at this point I may commit blasphemy and go pure digital desktop and portable. It's all horses for courses and I will listen to music in the way I like as I can. The delivery will vary, but the music will always be there.
Assisi Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 To me it is about the audio and the actual music. The relative quality and the synergy of the audio system components is the means to the end of the pursuit of quality listening to music. When everything is just right the listening becomes a spiritual pleasure for me. A real feel good. I just wait for 9.30 at night when everything is at its best. John
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