Full Range Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Thanks Keith Looks like I will be getting a pre loved set of quality steel knives Any brands other than the ones mentioned already that I should be looking out for? FR
xtrachewy Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) ....also Messermeister, Sabatier, Tamahagane-tradition (...actually Japanese-made knives requires a separate thread), Furi ... At the other spectrum, Grandma used the same cheap Malaysian cleaver to do everything for 30+ years of amazing meals: remove apple peel (for me as a toddler), perfectly chopped Hainanese chicken, or make paper-thin pastry for dumplings... Definitely Old-School (Respect). Edited January 6, 2011 by xtrachewy
hybridfiat Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Trident, Wusthoff, Mondial Ive used/owned them all. Id advise you buy any of these brands if you are mildly competent at sharpening a knife. Dont get a Japanese or ceramic blade unless you are prepared to be very careful and selective in want you cut. Jap laminated knives are very very brittle at the edge and will chip easily as will ceramics. Both are very difficult to sharpen properly. To retain that lovely layered effect on the Japanese knife you must get Japanese natural stones (expensive). The ceramics can be given an edge with diamond laps. On no account get the yellow handled Wenger commercial knives made in Switzerland, they are as hard as the hobs of hell and Ive lost count of the number Ive had to ressurect for owners who give up in frustration. I have 2 hand made Japanese shushi knives, one ceramic utility knife from Japan, Trident, Mondial and Wusthoff kitchen knives and an F.Dick steak knife. I use a water wheel grinder then the glass plate with various grades of "nofill" paper to flatten the blades then choose one of the following to finish; diamond laps, several Japanese water stones or an Al oxide . I used to be a butcher and boner.
Super Mustud Posted January 6, 2011 Author Posted January 6, 2011 Trident, Wusthoff, Mondial Ive used/owned them all. Id advise you buy any of these brands if you are mildly competent at sharpening a knife.Dont get a Japanese or ceramic blade unless you are prepared to be very careful and selective in want you cut. Jap laminated knives are very very brittle at the edge and will chip easily as will ceramics. Both are very difficult to sharpen properly. To retain that lovely layered effect on the Japanese knife you must get Japanese natural stones (expensive). The ceramics can be given an edge with diamond laps. On no account get the yellow handled Wenger commercial knives made in Switzerland, they are as hard as the hobs of hell and Ive lost count of the number Ive had to ressurect for owners who give up in frustration. I have 2 hand made Japanese shushi knives, one ceramic utility knife from Japan, Trident, Mondial and Wusthoff kitchen knives and an F.Dick steak knife. I use a water wheel grinder then the glass plate with various grades of "nofill" paper to flatten the blades then choose one of the following to finish; diamond laps, several Japanese water stones or an Al oxide . I used to be a butcher and boner. Great post.
Super Mustud Posted January 6, 2011 Author Posted January 6, 2011 At the other spectrum, Grandma used the same cheap Malaysian cleaver to do everything for 30+ years of amazing meals: remove apple peel (for me as a toddler), perfectly chopped Hainanese chicken, or make paper-thin pastry for dumplings... Definitely Old-School (Respect). And I imagine that your Gran's Malaysian cleaver was made of carbon steel rather than stainless, and that it would sharpen beautifully for a wonderful edge. Problem is that not too many wives would like carbon steel blades in their wooden blocks these days, or be prepared to care for them as soon as they are used. All part of the compromise.
Full Range Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 I was just given a small set of 3 pieces of Victorinox AG Swiss made knives It was my daughters set she used when she was in TAFE when doing a hospitality course Apparently they make the Swiss Army knives Did I score on this one or do you think she wants free feeds for life :nana FR
xtrachewy Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 @hybridfiat - you mean better known as Swibo knives....(yellow handled). The Global (GF) forged series isn't brittle in my experience but do require special stones/laps for sharpening/honing. Suspect Wusthoff Trident are one and the same brand/logo. Mundial (Brazillian?) was the knife I needed to sharpen most often - i.e. easily sharpened but didn't hold edge as long as others.
DRC Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Knowing a few chefs (the better half is a very good one), the choice of knife has a heavy consideration on ergonomics. Casually preping dinner for an hour at home is different to a commercial environment of hours of fast paced knife work. Wusthof in our house with some Global-Pro (freebie). The Globals are nice but brittle, they will chip on bone and are no good for refinishing cable ends... Sharpening is subcontracted, their is an exceptional sharpener in Adelaide who is used by the Restaurant trade.
xtrachewy Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 And I imagine that your Gran's Malaysian cleaver was made of carbon steel rather than stainless, and that it would sharpen beautifully for a wonderful edge. Problem is that not too many wives would like carbon steel blades in their wooden blocks these days, or be prepared to care for them as soon as they are used.All part of the compromise. Acutely observed Mustud52 :nana
Tony C Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 The knifes balance is also important to users with good knife skills. A knife should balance when holding on one finger between where its handle meets the blade Also the feel of the handle, particularly when working with wet hands, due to handling seafoods, meats and washes vegetables. Trident and Dick were both very popular in my time, with Mundial a lower priced alternative that did not hold thier edge as well and needed more regular sharpening. Tony C
Tony C Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Forgot to add, consider the effects of dishwashers on the knifes long term durability, and never use a wooden knife block unless the knives are properly dried before returning them to storage. Knife blocks are a breeding ground for bacteria if the knives are constantly returned to storage when moist. Tony
xtrachewy Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 A mate once remarked that of the knives he owned, he "liked Dick best because it felt good in the hand" - that unleashed fits of laughter at a dinner party b/c one look across the table to another triggered more giggling.
Tony C Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Yep!!!!, Knives do become an extension of your arm and do need to feel right in the hand. Heavier knives can make the work of cutting easier, but not all users are comfortable with the heavier knives, so making a purchase as a gift becomes more problematic. If the knifes do not feel right, the they are more likely to feature as decorative items rahter than useful tools. Tony
xtrachewy Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 LOL - that's just about how the conversation went...size, length, width...people had to keep their heads down, eyes on their food, to have any chance to stifle laughter.....I remember thinking any minute somebody would lose control and spray food across the dinner table: one girl held her mouth and sprinted away to stop laughing but failed in another room. Even her re-entry into the dining room caused more laughter. It's still funny :nana
aoeu Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 If you are serious about knives, you need to forget about Shun, Wustoff, Global, and anything sold at KoN. That just doesn't cut the grade. Go here and have a look around at some serious knives http://www.chefsarmoury.com/. Good knives have multiple layers of steel and a high hardness rating. Yes they cost much more, but stay sharper for longer and are just a pleasure to work with. http://www.chefsarmoury.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/santoku-/-multipurpose/athro-101-damascus-180mm-santoku-knife/prod_24.html . As for sharpening, please don't sharpen knives you love with anything other than a good stone. [ATTACH=CONFIG]27520[/ATTACH] oh... and please dont put them in the dishwasher..................
Super Mustud Posted January 6, 2011 Author Posted January 6, 2011 If you are serious about knives, you need to forget about Shun, Wustoff, Global, and anything sold at KoN. That just doesn't cut the grade. Go here and have a look around at some serious knives http://www.chefsarmoury.com/. Good knives have multiple layers of steel and a high hardness rating. Yes they cost much more, but stay sharper for longer and are just a pleasure to work with. http://www.chefsarmoury.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/santoku-/-multipurpose/athro-101-damascus-180mm-santoku-knife/prod_24.html . As for sharpening, please don't sharpen knives you love with anything other than a good stone. [ATTACH=CONFIG]27520[/ATTACH]oh... and please dont put them in the dishwasher.................. I would agree with you if you are serious about KNIVES. However, if you are serious about USING a knife, then the answer MIGHT be different. Mrs Mustud certainly needs sharp knives, however they need to be able to withstand her daily treatment of them. The sweet spot for knife selection therefore drives in a different direction. On the other hand, her choice of pearls drives in a direction that many would consider absurd. Certainly our bank manager thinks so. It is all in what rings your bells. :nana Interesting about the dishwasher. We stopped putting the kitchen knives in the dishwasher years ago when I noticed that the dishwasher was eating away the rivets on the handles. What I had not considered was possible damage to the heat treatment of the blade. Out of interest, I will have to check on the temperature threshold to see if this is a realistic danger or just a bit of a furphy that I have read about on a few websites. The danger of the blades being knocked about is obvious and can be overcome.
Poita Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Well I may have to rethink... I had my heart set on buying some Shun knives eventually when our Scanpan wedding gift set wore out. Now I am a little confused... correct me if I am wrong, but I thought they were good quality Japanese knives but I get the impression here that they aren't??? I really do like that Apex sharpening system! Not too expensive either.
zipstartcanoe Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 If you are serious about knives, you need to forget about Shun, Wustoff, Global, and anything sold at KoN. That just doesn't cut the grade. Go here and have a look around at some serious knives http://www.chefsarmoury.com/. Good knives have multiple layers of steel and a high hardness rating. Yes they cost much more, but stay sharper for longer and are just a pleasure to work with. I've been down the path of exotic custom oriental bladeware in the past, and although they are really lovely things to own, IMO functionally they don't even come close to competing with blades made from high end modern stainless alloys like S30V, BG-42, D2, or Bohler M390.
aoeu Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) I don't like the dish washer because its just not necessary. It takes about 15 seconds to scrub down a knife by hand and rinse + dry. Why leave it in the disher washer for an hour? And its also the heat from the dw, causing the blade and handle to expand at different rates, which eventually separates them. Poita, don't buy a set. You pay for knives you rarely use. Take the money and buy 2-3 knives that you use most often. Edited January 7, 2011 by aoeu
Super Mustud Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Well I may have to rethink... I had my heart set on buying some Shun knives eventually when our Scanpan wedding gift set wore out. Now I am a little confused... correct me if I am wrong, but I thought they were good quality Japanese knives but I get the impression here that they aren't???I really do like that Apex sharpening system! Not too expensive either. Shun knives have good quality knives with harder steel than "European knives". They also have a narrower bevel on the cutting edge (see Keith's post earlier). That means that the Shun will hold their sharpness longer if used properly, but are harder to sharpen and are more prone to edge damage if cutting into bone or a hard surface, and breaking the tip if dropped on the floor. The european style knives use a less acute angle on the cutting edge bevel and is made of softer steel. The rational is that they are more tolerant of abuse and are easier to sharpen - but need sharpening for often than the Japanese style (but remember that it is all relative). Then there is the matter of honing as opposed to sharpening. Regular honing on a steel to straighten out the teensy weensy kinks at the edge is also easier on the european style knives, and this can be an important benefit for many users. It is interesting that the europeans are now also making "Japanese" knives and the Japanese are making "european" knives. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. The really expensive Japanese knives have even harder steel than the Shun and are real works of art. Great if you treat then accordingly. Mrs Mustud is getting a few more Wusthof knives, also a set of Wusthof steak knives. We only need 3 kitchen knives in each house (a parer/small kitchen knife, a cook's knife and a bread knife), plus a steel and that nice new sharpening toy.
hybridfiat Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 @hybridfiat - you mean better known as Swibo knives....(yellow handled).The Global (GF) forged series isn't brittle in my experience but do require special stones/laps for sharpening/honing. Suspect Wusthoff Trident are one and the same brand/logo. Mundial (Brazillian?) was the knife I needed to sharpen most often - i.e. easily sharpened but didn't hold edge as long as others. Yes to all counts. The Mundial are a well made reasonable priced knife that wont present too much of a hassle for the average joe to sharpen. Our boning knives (Swibo) needed some real expertise to keep a good working edge but didnt chip. So hard and tough. I got my first diamond hone when working for an abbatoir as a carborundum just couldnt cut it. Victronox are a good brand but I dont have much experience with them. Carbon blades take the very best edge period! But they tarnish and will rust. Nor will they hold that edge as long as a good stainless. You pays your money and takes your choice.
hybridfiat Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) A word about steels. They are for straightening the very leading edge almost at a molecular level. It has to be sharp to begin with. Steels are not for the removal of metal. There are some diamond and ceramic hones in a steel shape but a good steel is smooth or almost so. Also magnetic. This assists the edge straightening somehow. The first thing we all did on buying a new steel was to spend a good 2 hours smoothing the surface with fine emery cloth. Another tip use a magnetic knife rack. Have fun. Theres nothing like a good sharp knife in the kitchen. When I travel I take an Opinel No10 with me everywhere. Here at home its an Opinel No8 stainless filleter in the pocket at all times. Sharp enough to shave with. Cos no-one ever has sharp knives in thier kitchens and Im always asked to cook/carve or prepare. Edited January 7, 2011 by hybridfiat
hybridfiat Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 About the heat effect. I used to do reamers for rechambering rifles and one way I tempered them was the hot oil method. Boiling a clean engine oil and leaving the hardened reamer in it for an hour. The temp was way way higher than any dishwasher could hope to achieve, probably by a factor of 4. It is the damage to the steel from the caustic that is the worry. It eats the tiny pockets of impurities found in some steels and dystroys the handles and rivets. If you have hollow handled table knives youmay have noticed a line appearing close to the handle where the martensitic steel of the blade has been welded to the austensitic steel of the handle. Not good.
xtrachewy Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Has anyone had success with Furi knives (popular with Maggie Beer, Chong Liew, Nigella Lawson) ??
hybridfiat Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Not my words but from a knife website. http://reviews.cookingcache.com/kitchen-knives-review.html Furi Knives: Furi offers several lines and the knife we tested was the Rachael Ray Knife with gusto grip model FUR827. This is an exceptionally mediocre knife. The orange handle is poorly fitted and uncomfortable to hold. The blade was dull out of the box and we found rusting issues on the blade. The overall quality of the steel used does not seem to be very good since the knives don't hold an edge very long even after we professionally re-sharpened the knives. A general rule of thumb is to avoid products that are marketed by a celebrity. In this case we think you would be well advised to heed this advice. Overall we give this knife a D. Thought Id pop a pic of my suminagashi utility knife I use at work to make sushi. Cant remember the maker but it is super sharp even after a year. Edited January 7, 2011 by hybridfiat
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