Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 I expect it might be high time I introduce myself, being that I've been lurking for a good six months and posting for the last one... HiFi Heathen, I figure the name says it all. (the avatar is an uncanny resemblance) I'm rather new to the HiFi side of music - stumbling rather blindly into it only 10 or so months ago buying a mid-range Denon HT system... It was...nice... The speakers lasted a fortnight to be turfed for some cheap Energies...that just didn't do it for me and got sidelined by some old Mission 703s I had long admired... that in turn carried too much low end and got complimented by some old B&W 2004s to hold the highs... which highlighted the short-fallings of the Denon which was then surpassed by an old NAD 314 I'd heard... which itself fell short on power and got supplimented by a 916 multi-channel that could bridge the Missions up to a slightly more respectable 90w... which exposed their boominess and bought about the AE109s... which have an uncanny ability to reproduce percussive sounds with pleasantly tight bass but just don't quite do it... Oh, and a C521BEE and a Numark TT500 and a 140gb classic on a Denon ASD 3n control dock all of which I'd move to the bedroom in an instant so I could start afresh if only budget permitted... Humble beginnings, indeed. And here I am. A student of sound, wandering muddled through a heretofore unknown secret adult playground... Music is my primary passion. It's what I grew up on at home with an early exposure that ran the gamut from opera and gospel through country, rock and punk right up to hair metal. My own musical tastes, I like to describe as 'from Blind Lemon Jefferson to Leftover Crack'. Essentially, if it's good, if it shows artistry, mastery, originality - if it pushes sonic boundaries and displays an in-depth understanding of both musical form and structure - I'll take it. Sonic artistry. The art of sound. I'm in love with an art-form I myself could never quite master. I don't envy great musicians but I do ardently admire them their ability to do something I myself strived years and failed to quite grasp - fluency in the ethereal language of sound. So yes, I am a failed musician - though my focus in music was always as much in the sound side as it was writing/performance. Over a ten year period from the mid 90s I worked in music retail (instruments) as a guitar tech, and mixed live sound in various samll punk/alt venues around Fortitude Valley (Brisbane) as well as spending several glorious months working in various studios there. My passion has never left me but age has caught up with me and now at 32, I am a father of 2 young boys, recently married and running my own small business (light-years away from music sadly). So why am I here? To learn. I'm under no illusion that my system is giving me the every detail I'd like to wrangle out of the music I so admire - so why not peek in on those in the know? Admittedly I'm skeptical of Audiophilia - IMO it seems to skew the focus away from sound reproduction and onto the toys. And while I do wonder if it's not as much about ego satisfaction as aural pleasure - I am also accutely aware that this is a community from which I could derive much benefit and understanding in my own quest for (subjectively) ultimate satisfaction in the comfort of my own space. I'm very much at the beginning (and bottom-end) of what I already foresee being a long and educational journey into a side of music I've only recently become aware of... And I'm glad to be here and I'm looking forward to it...Thanks for having me.
got tinnitus Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Thanks Heathen. Nice intro. Hi-Fi'ism is such a niche pursuit; we're probably the 0.005%. Remember to trust your own ears but as you've alluded to above, at the end of the day it's all about The Music. And BTW, the system you have there is a good place to be.
kiwi_1282001 Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Even though I haven't quite joined the dots on the avatar and the lounge furnishings I like the NAD stuff. That is exactly where I started - long ago. Welcome.
thepersuasions Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Be careful, if you become an audiophilliac you'll bleed money. However I sometimes think my partner could be an audiophilistine due to her lack of appreciation of my mid fi system, (rotel 1080, maggie1.6). Especially yesterday when she said her sister's crappy satellite ht sounded fine! (No, it really is awful ). She is in charge of all the money now so no more journey into hifi, Bon chance for your voyage.
Luis1553552738 Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Welcome non-believer. I have to say, your progress through 10 months of hifi interest is pretty stunning. I for one am a total slug when it comes to changing ( otherwise known as 'upgrading') gear, and some of my stuff dates back to the bronze age. I'm sure you're finding that for many on this forum, music is the primary interest. The equipment is a means to that end; reproduction of an art form that you love and enjoy. It is fun and interesting though, to learn and experiment with the many variables that hifi gear can bring, and hopefully intensify the musical experience. Maybe your past work in live sound has laid the foundations of an obsession...?
maxgate Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 With a young family and therefore (very) limited discretionary income, this is a fine system. No loathing, only the fear that exposure to cream will put you off the healthy milk you already enjoy.
thepersuasions Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Be careful, if you become an audiophilliac you'll bleed money. However I sometimes think my partner could be an audiophilistine due to her lack of appreciation of my mid fi system, (rotel 1080, maggie1.6). Especially yesterday when she said her sister's crappy satellite ht sounded fine! (No, it really is awful ). She is in charge of all the money now so no more journey into hifi, Bon chance for your voyage.
Mycenius Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Hi-Fi heathen;173757 wrote: I'm rather new to the HiFi side of music - stumbling rather blindly into it only 10 or so months ago buying a mid-range Denon HT system... It was... nice ... The speakers lasted a fortnight to be turfed for some cheap Energies...that just didn't do it for me and got sidelined by some old Mission 703s I had long admired... that in turn carried too much low end and got complimented by some old B&W 2004s to hold the highs... which highlighted the short-fallings of the Denon which was then surpassed by an old NAD 314 I'd heard... which itself fell short on power and got supplimented by a 916 multi-channel that could bridge the Missions up to a slightly more respectable 90w... which exposed their boominess and bought about the AE109s... which have an uncanny ability to reproduce percussive sounds with pleasantly tight bass but just don't quite do it... Oh, and a C521BEE and a Numark TT500 and a 140gb classic on a Denon ASD 3n control dock all of which I'd move to the bedroom in an instant so I could start afresh if only budget permitted... OMG - You aren't Kamaikid's brother are you??!!! :eek: That aside, welcome!
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 kiwi_1282001;173771 wrote: Even though I haven't quite joined the dots on the avatar and the lounge furnishings I like the NAD stuff. Ha! The neighbours here in very straight laced, middle class Karori took a while to join those dots too... Getting ever more conservative with age and responsibility though! And the Nad, at it's price point really is sublime. Considering an entry level integrated with matching PSBs will set you back less than a Sony Mutaki or basic Denon HTs... Anyhoo, thank you.
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 Cheers to all for the welcome, it has been a steep 10 month learning curve but thoroughly enjoyable...Reality, of course, stepped in last week and my work vehicle needs a new transmission so things will slow down for a while methinks... It was always going to be reality or the wife stepping in at some point - an obsessive nature precludes my inability to put the cap back on the bottle once it's open!? There goes the Perreaux!? And yes, though I feel like a minnow round here re: system outlay/exotic nature etc - if I didn't derive enormous satisfaction from it as is - I wouldn't be here. Again, my thanks.
Electra Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Don't worry if you think your system is not worth as much as most on here are, we are all equals, as we all share a love of listening to music. Some have more means than others to indulge in the passion, but we all strive for the same thing ( well, most do, some only listen to hardware, which is a very anorakish kind of thing to do IMO! )
Mycenius Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 too_tall;173819 wrote: ...but we all strive for the same thing ( well, most do, some only listen to hardware, which is a very anorakish kind of thing to do IMO! ) ...and some others just strive to blow it up! :eek:
me21553552755 Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Hi-Fi heathen;173812 wrote: Reality, of course, stepped in last week and my work vehicle needs a new transmission so things will slow down for a while methinks... ...an obsessive nature precludes my inability to put the cap back on the bottle once it's open!? Fortunately this hobby of hifi isn't just about how much money you can throw at it. ( although it would seem that way from reading reviews in glossy magazines and such) Some of the biggest improvements can come from optimising the gear you already have through integrating it with your room properly. Have you ever measured the frequency response of your room in any way? This can be something as simple as playing progressively higher frequency sine waves and physically hearing which range goes quieter or louder. Or holding a dB level meter and watching the readings varying. Or ultimately having a bit of hardware and software that will graph it for you. You mentioned in another thread about busy tracks sounding congested. This could be something as simple as a large peak in the upper bass or lower mid-range area. Imagine the satisfaction of fixing the problem with $0 spent. Or what if there is a large null somewhere in your room's frequency response? My reasoning is that I have paid $$$ for my speakers and system. I don't want to be missing out on any of the sounds they can actually produce simply from not knowing any better. But that is exactly what is happening if you are sitting in a large null of part of the response. A problem made far worse by your typical small "cosy" kiwi lounge.
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Hi me2 and thanks for your response. I must confess i have gotten a wee bit caught up in the idea that more dollars spent means more sound - and as Maxgate, sage man that he is, suggested above - two wee lads, a stay at home mum etc, etc means discretionary spending is a somewhat limited thing presently. I have been pondering room acoustics rather a lot of late and though I've not gone as far as to take measurements, I do have a basic DB meter in the house and must admit your idea there strikes me as low-tech genius. Following a few of the threads here I put a good few hours into bass trap/acoustic panel research before cooling on the idea deciding perhaps this was best left to those with more money invested... but you're absolutely right - indeed, why shouldn't I milk what I have for all I can? And as the ultimate goal is not just a listening room but a music room inclusive of basic recording capabilities - ie, multi-channel into Pro Tools etc - this makes all the more sense. Can you recommend any readily available software? We only have vocal mics in the house but a reasonable quality acoustic mic should be easy enough to lay hands on. ...I must admit a few of my preconceptions about 'audiophiles' are being challenged here!
Electra Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 If you have a well known vocal mic such as the SM58 or other very well known mics, you will easily find what their response curves are, and be able to take that into account with your graphing. If you have access to a driverack and the appropriate microphone, you need nothing more if you want a basic plot of the response curve. Even the base model will do that I believe. But I strongly suggest against using one as room correction. It breaks the sound quality. Quite badly.
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Thanks Too Tall. We have a 52 and a 58 in the house (is there any other kind these days?) and thinking about it - a drive rack might be relatively easily borrowed - a friend has a small label that includes studio/promo/events etc and all the oodles of mouthwatering gear that goes with such an enterprise - he must surely have one.
Electra Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 If he has a 200 or 4000 series Drive rack, they will do all the plotting on your computer for you. The PX and PA wont, but will still draw a pretty graph on their display. the 4800 is actually not too bad for room correction, and at $10K rrp it bloody well should be. Good enough that I just let it do its thing for indoor PA stuff. The PA+ needs user intervention to make things sound semi good ( although not many engineers care or understand enough to improve on the PA's own algorithms ). You will possibly need to get some balanced to single ended adapters or make up some cables to get the Driverack to do its thing in your system unless you have balanced inputs somewhere?
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Ha! Big fella, I suspect with he being a young upstart operating out of a converted loft above a panel beaters (!?) and I being a semi grown-up punk rocker... He's not going to have the 4800 and I wouldn't get near it if he did! ...but I'd be be surprised if he didn't have something I could use. And nothing so luxurious as balanced outs either but I'm a handy guy. Can I ask what it is you do if you're tampering with the algorithms of PAs... I suspect we're talking about something a little bigger than the old 150watt Peavey that was once the pride of my garage?
me21553552755 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Hi-Fi heathen;173892 wrote: Can you recommend any readily available software? We only have vocal mics in the house but a reasonable quality acoustic mic should be easy enough to lay hands on. I have tried a few different real time analyser programs and the one that was the easiest to use and gave usable results straight off was TrueRTA. Granted it cost a few dollars to get the higher resolutions over the free trial version, but I feel it is well well worth it. If you know someone with an AVR, see if you can borrow their calibration mic. Right there is an omni mic. The first step isn't to worry about the ultimate flat calibrated line... just to see what is going on frequency wise in your room before you even begin to think about room correction or acoustic treatments. You need to see what problems you may or may not have before trying to fix any problems.
Electra Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Hi-Fi heathen;173906 wrote: Can I ask what it is you do if you're tampering with the algorithms of PAs... I suspect we're talking about something a little bigger than the old 150watt Peavey that was once the pride of my garage? I own a farm actually, so spend most of my life running it, and dreaming of when I don't have to do the milkings myself!. Outside of that, I have a keen interest in audio, both home audio and also have an interest in professional sound, and have a few bits and pieces of pro gear I use from time to time for various things. Getting to do that less and less though - would rather go sailing.
Reverend Johnny Heathen Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Thanks me2, I'll have a look for this software tonight - a few dollars spent here will undoubtedly pay itself off over the years. Probably preferable to my chasing the Arcam DAC for sale elsewhere on the forum!? Thought I had my hands on a drive rack but alas, it isn't so and perhaps that's for the best - its been many years since i sat in any audio related classes and frankly the chemistry was full throttle back then - I'm not so certain a drive rack would be much more use to me than an instruction manual in Mandarin unless i had a trained operator that came with it. As you've almost alluded to in both your posts, I have a tendency to hit these things running rather than with the considered and methodical approach that might serve me best! It might be best to work at this one from the bottom up and treat it as a learning exercise rather than running headlong into a solution that may not be? I also plan to have a play with the DB meter tonight. It should prove quite an interesting room to read - 'L' shaped, lots of glass, thick plaster ceiling. Corners are fairly broken up - potted palms, an armchair also a large bookshelf and lots of canvases on the wall all of which I'm sure will come into play in one way or another.
me21553552755 Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 The lower frequencies will be more important to get right first. Don't worry too much about what the higher frequencies are doing just at the moment. You room will have a transition point somewhere in the frequency range where the room is more dominant in what you get. EQ will have little effect. Changing speaker position, listening position has large effect. Some reading on the subject... http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2012/3/14/the-schroeder-transition-frequency-explained.html As Jim Smith says in his 'get better sound' DVD and books... you will never be satisfied with your system until you get the bass right.
_edited.thumb.jpg.4dd24d9367a6689e41523a9167604291.jpg)
Recommended Posts