o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 I am sure there will be a post somewhere discussing this, but inst this always the case. I would like to know if, how and why expensive streamers that do NOT incorporate a DAC can improve (or even affect in any way) sound quality. I am not really overly interested in personal opinions based on what someone thinks they might have heard after spending zillions to upgrade their basic digital streamer, because I am a firm believer in confirmation bias. What I would like to hear about, if possible at all, is - technically, or in any way that is measurable - how expensive digital streamers can improve sound over a basic streamer, at the same sampling bitrate and frequency. There are streamers out there costing thousands. What do they do to music that a Google Chromecast or a Raspberry P does not do? I read arguments about reduced noise floor. How can this be possible? A streamer transfers series of 1 and zeroes. How is the noise floor transferred? I also read lots of stuff around the buzzword jiitter. My understanding, which is limited, is that of Jiitter is a measure of the errors in transmitting bytes, and that if there is an error the music will just stop for a fraction of a second. Is this true? If yes, it has never happened to me using a Google Chromecast. Also, when testing this with mt Naim DAC, results say that the Chromecast is "bit-perfect". So how can something expensive be more perfect than bit perfect? Thanks to anyone who will contribute. 1
Guest Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 Sorry, my experience is subjective only but streamers do impact performance. I have experience with a number of different streamers and with different power supplies. Complicating that is the impact of the USB connection which further influences performance. Having said that, in looking back, I should have invested in a high end steamer with DAC which bypasses all the challenge of mix and match of streamer, USB and DAC...
o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Sorry, my experience is subjective only but streamers do impact performance. I have experience with a number of different streamers and with different power supplies. Complicating that is the impact of the USB connection which further influences performance. Having said that, in looking back, I should have invested in a high end steamer with DAC which bypasses all the challenge of mix and match of streamer, USB and DAC... Thanks mate, I am sure there are plenty of forum users who have had your same experience. But assuming the difference you heard is real, the intent of this thread is to understand what causes it and how. Any ideas?
srms Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 "technically, or in any way that is measurable" and HiFi 1
rantan Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 Oh dear. I truly hope this doesn't go the way of some other recent threads. I have a view but I won't be drawn into the arena. I wish the OP very well and I hope questions are answered by those who are able to measure things. 1 1
o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, rantan said: Oh dear. I truly hope this doesn't go the way of some other recent threads. I have a view but I won't be drawn into the arena. I wish the OP very well and I hope questions are answered by those who are able to measure things. Lol. If things cannot be measured, or no one has had a chance to measure them, I would like at least to understand the technical reasons making expensive streamers sound allegedly better.
Steffen Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 Some steamers and DACs appear to measure better than others, and I'm sure some of those differences will be audible. Typically (but not always), the more expensive ones will sound better than the cheap ones. However, the differences will be slight, and if I had $1000 to spare I'd invest them in room treatment rather than a streamer or DAC upgrade.
o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Steffen said: Some steamers and DACs appear to measure better than others, and I'm sure some of those differences will be audible. Typically (but not always), the more expensive ones will sound better than the cheap ones. However, the differences will be slight, and if I had $1000 to spare I'd invest them in room treatment rather than a streamer or DAC upgrade. Thanks. I am not questioning that DACs sound different from each other, as there is a reason for that which is in the way they are tuned to generate the analog sound wave. I agree with you however that differences between most DACs are close to being inaudible and other factors such as the room are several times more important. SO ok to differences in DACs. But digital streamers? To me, they all recreate the same exact patters of 1s and 0s. There cannot be different versions of 0001101000101001.
Bunno77 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 Jitter, timing/clocking, noise, leakage, functionality 5
o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 Just now, Bunno77 said: Jitter, timing/clocking, noise, leakage, functionality Thanks. Can you please expand on JItter. timing and noise? How does that work with the zeroes and 1s?
rand129678 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) @o2so A 3 part interview with John Swenson, if you have time to go through it slowly and carefully. https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound Edited August 15, 2019 by rand129678 4
o2so Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, rand129678 said: @o2so A 3 part interview with John Swenson, if you have time to go through it slowly and carefully. https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound this looks more like what I was after, thanks! 1
Guest Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, o2so said: Thanks mate, I am sure there are plenty of forum users who have had your same experience. But assuming the difference you heard is real, the intent of this thread is to understand what causes it and how. Any ideas? There was another thread which discussed streamers (link is to one of my post). The links provided by rand129678 explains some of the differences. The key is the clocking between the streamer and DAC via USB and you can get into some exotic external clocking solutions. Hence, my earlier suggestion of getting a high end steamer DAC. Edited August 15, 2019 by Snoopy8 Typo
Neo Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) My experience with different price streamers last two the auralic Aries did not have the dac built in and the current one naim Ndx is used as a transport, so coax out into the dac. originally posted in another discussion @Snoopy8 I believe provided the link ” Started with Auralic Aries mini, upgraded to internal hard drive for music storage. Had an opportunity to buy Aries LE, updated the power supply to Gieseler linear. A2A had another one of their sales got the Aries femto which has the femto clocks on all digital outputs in case any one is wondering if it is restricted to usb only. Used with usb for awhile then moved to aes/ebu. Then Len Wallis decided to introduce me to Naim NDX streamer, just take it home and try and compare to Aries femto. So I did, used ndx coax out (as a transport like Aries femto) listened to 3 songs as a comparison. After that short audition promptly packed up the Aries and listed it on Stereonet. That’s my journey with the different streamers over the few years, Aries LE upgrade with Geiseler linear psu dropped the noise floor, Aries femto went further and brought more resolution. So incremental increases with each unit described above, in some areas big improvements in some small. Naim NDX is in another league, but so is the price and now in the second generation it’s close to $9.5k. Would I be upgrading, only to Naim NDS, which requires its own psu, so two boxes. How soon time will tell Neo” Edited August 15, 2019 by Neo 2
Bunno77 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Neo said: My experience with different price streamers last two the auralic Aries did not have the dac built in and the current one naim Ndx is used as a transport, so coax out into the dac. originally posted in another discussion @Snoopy8 I believe provided the link ” Started with Auralic Aries mini, upgraded to internal hard drive for music storage. Had an opportunity to buy Aries LE, updated the power supply to Gieseler linear. A2A had another one of their sales got the Aries femto which has the femto clocks on all digital outputs in case any one is wondering if it is restricted to usb only. Used with usb for awhile then moved to aes/ebu. Then Len Wallis decided to introduce me to Naim NDX streamer, just take it home and try and compare to Aries femto. So I did, used ndx coax out (as a transport like Aries femto) listened to 3 songs as a comparison. After that short audition promptly packed up the Aries and listed it on Stereonet. That’s my journey with the different streamers over the few years, Aries LE upgrade with Geiseler linear psu dropped the noise floor, Aries femto went further and brought more resolution. So incremental increases with each unit described above, in some areas big improvements in some small. Naim NDX is in another league, but so is the price and now in the second generation it’s close to $9.5k. Would I be upgrading, only to Naim NDS, which requires its own psu, so two boxes. How soon time will tell Neo” Have you looked at the teddy pardo psu for your ndx?
Neo Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 The improvements in each case can be attributed to perhaps the design complexity, component integration or technology implementation. Anything more specific and we need to discuss a specific model how it works, speak to the engineers, designers of that product other wise it’s a cyclical conversation from a lot of armchair experts who may poses the knowledge but will lack a specific insight to a specific product design. Specs, components tell only part of the story, it’s how they come together and give you the results that’s what matters and since there are a lot of streamer these days in a lot of price brackets that’s a lot of variables to consider without examining each streamer on individual basis. Neo 2
rand129678 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, o2so said: this looks more like what I was after, thanks! John covers many of the potential technical mechanisms involved. Showing all of this at the analogue output of a DAC (measurements) is much more difficult. But if you send those 3 links to the designer/s of your own DAC/s, there is a high chance they will agree with everything John is saying there, in terms of potential technical mechanisms at play. Unless they say their DACs are immune to all the issues discussed. It may be worth asking them (the designer/s of your DAC/s) for their thoughts.
Neo Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Bunno77 said: Have you looked at the teddy pardo psu for your ndx? I did try the Naim XPS DR and to be honest did not like the end result so didn’t go down the psu route again. Although I have experience with an external PSU and the benefits it brings. That may change in the future Neo Edited August 15, 2019 by Neo 1
awayward Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Definitely not what OP really wanted, but slightly relevant. I’m a firm believer in one piece of equipment for one task. A jack of all trades cannot perform to the level of an expert in the specific trade IMHO Edited August 15, 2019 by awayward
Steffen Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Bunno77 said: Jitter, timing/clocking, noise, leakage, functionality Yes. The beauty of digital though is that these things (leaving out functionality for a moment) only matter at the time and location of D/A conversion. Unlike with an analog signal, it doesn't matter whether the bits have travelled far, over slow, fast, optical or radio links, have been stored to disk or buffered in RAM – as long as they don't get lost in transit (in which case they will usually be resent) they will always be as fresh and authentic as when they were conceived. Jitter, timing, noise, etc. are not properties of the digital bit stream, they are properties of the environment in which the DAC operates. 3
Bunno77 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 58 minutes ago, Steffen said: Yes. The beauty of digital though is that these things (leaving out functionality for a moment) only matter at the time and location of D/A conversion. Unlike with an analog signal, it doesn't matter whether the bits have travelled far, over slow, fast, optical or radio links, have been stored to disk or buffered in RAM – as long as they don't get lost in transit (in which case they will usually be resent) they will always be as fresh and authentic as when they were conceived. Jitter, timing, noise, etc. are not properties of the digital bit stream, they are properties of the environment in which the DAC operates. I could be wrong but I don't believe that to be entirely true as in Sean's links above 1
rand129678 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Bunno77 said: I could be wrong but I don't believe that to be entirely true as in Sean's links above Assuming bit perfect transfer to the DAC input/s, the potential technical mechanisms that John discusses all play out at D-to-A conversion, so @Steffen has that right. The ground plane noise John talks about is of interest in the D-to-A stage. For example, I'm listening to Tidal now and not concerned with ground plane noise in the Tidal servers overseas. As long as the FLAC bits are getting to my DAC input bit perfectly. But the interesting stuff John discusses, beyond just 'bits are bits' (potentially) comes into play in my DAC. I recommend a careful read of all 3 parts, if anyone is interested. Edited August 15, 2019 by rand129678 Typo 1
Bunno77 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 48 minutes ago, rand129678 said: Assuming bit perfect transfer to the DAC input/s, the potential technical mechanisms that John discusses all play out at D-to-A conversion, so @Steffen has that right. The ground plane noise John talks about is of interest in the D-to-A stage. For example, I'm listening to Tidal now and not concerned with ground plane noise in the Tidal servers overseas. As long as the FLAC bits are getting to my DAC input bit perfectly. But the interesting stuff John discusses, beyond just 'bits are bits' (potentially) comes into play in my DAC. I recommend a careful read of all 3 parts, if anyone is interested. haha I didn't look but have read them in the past. I remember seeing measurements of jitter and timing errors somewhere and assumed it was there. I am sorry
rand129678 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bunno77 said: I am sorry Ha. Absolutely no need to apologise for anything at all. This is all just fun and friendly discussion. Nothing too serious at all. Edited August 15, 2019 by rand129678 Typo
Bunno77 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, rand129678 said: Ha. Absolutely no need to apologise for anything at all. This is all just fun and friendly discussion. Nothing too serious at all. haha I shouldn't talk rubbish. I don't save all the info or find the info I have read before to back it up either. I remember a distributor talking about toslink too and how the digital conversion can go wrong there. It is all interesting but most of it is easy to hear the difference. Has been with a lot of the gear I have used Edited August 15, 2019 by Bunno77 .
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