Best 12AX7 for phono preamp

[aussievintage]

9 minutes ago, Be Quiet...Listen said:

I have been slowly collecting a little bag of older tubes and listening to the differences between the Euro, English, Japanese & US tubes. They all have either strength and weaknesses

No Australians?      I have to say I have like some Japanese valves I have tried.   I have some CEI that look like Matsushita that are nice, for example.

[F18]

The best 12ax7’s money could ever buy has always been the older bva black plate Mullard’s or TFK Ecc803s gold pin which are faked by private European makers, they re-etch old Czeckoslovakia 12ax7’s.

 

That said the regular TFK, Brimar and Mullards or Dutch made 12ax7’s sound great still.

 

Also worthy of a mention is the Australian made Mullard, Philips Miniwatt and AWA/AWV 12AX7’s. Up there with the better European ones as the Aussies did a great job making them in the heydays of Aussie tube radio and audio.

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by F18

[rusty48]

...and another two cents’ worth: 

EAR

PSVane/Shuguang black treasure 

Telefunken/Siemens. Siemens make a new 803 that is good. 

It’s fun, but as many have said, can be expensive. 

 

[aussievintage]

20 minutes ago, rusty48 said:

...and another two cents’ worth: 

EAR

PSVane/Shuguang black treasure 

Telefunken/Siemens. Siemens make a new 803 that is good. 

It’s fun, but as many have said, can be expensive. 

 

Listening to some classical late last night, I mentioned the Psvane.  Luke warm reception from the other side of the room, however,  better than when I mentioned the Abbey road re-issue set for $150   

[doogie44]

The other 

13 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Luke warm reception from the other side of the room, however,  better than when I mentioned the Abbey road re-issue set for $150

You will (both) be getting tears of joy from the luscious sounds due to be forthcoming from your whole system soon...my suggestion is to get both of the goodies you desire. This gets you out of binary black and white thinking (either this or that/good or bad), maximises your mutual hedonistic indulgence, is quite fair to both parties, and merely confirms that you as a partner have some unresolved spending problems.

 

This fault is essential to maintain as otherwise the 'other side of the room' would have nothing to moan about to the girlfriends. And it will temporarily eclipse the myriad of your other faults and provide a much-needed focus of temporary discontent. This is your signal to crawl with convincing humility.

 

Meanwhile the enjoyment continues and the forgiveness blossoms.

 

Married--and an audiophile-- for 48 years. Just saying.

[aussievintage]

16 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

The other 

You will (both) be getting tears of joy from the luscious sounds due to be forthcoming from your whole system soon...my suggestion is to get both of the goodies you desire. This gets you out of binary black and white thinking (either this or that/good or bad), maximises your mutual hedonistic indulgence, is quite fair to both parties, and merely confirms that you as a partner have some unresolved spending problems.

 

This fault is essential to maintain as otherwise the 'other side of the room' would have nothing to moan about to the girlfriends. And it will temporarily eclipse the myriad of your other faults and provide a much-needed focus of temporary discontent. This is your signal to crawl with convincing humility.

 

Meanwhile the enjoyment continues and the forgiveness blossoms.

 

Married--and an audiophile-- for 48 years. Just saying.

 

 

Love it  !! 

[Ittaku]

15 hours ago, aussievintage said:

Oh and yes so do I.    4 to 5 hours a day is normal when I am home.  Today, the stereo has only stopped for about 1 hour since I got up.    

Nice! I work from home and have the hi-fi on at all times when working. I vowed to never let valve lifetime worry me and just enjoy the best I can get rather than have lesser quality sound on just because it's relatively in the background.

[aussievintage]

32 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

You will (both) be getting tears of joy from the luscious sounds due to be forthcoming from your whole system soon...my suggestion is to get both of the goodies you desire. This gets you out of binary black and white thinking (either this or that/good or bad), maximises your mutual hedonistic indulgence, is quite fair to both parties, and merely confirms that you as a partner have some unresolved spending problems.

 

This fault is essential to maintain as otherwise the 'other side of the room' would have nothing to moan about to the girlfriends. And it will temporarily eclipse the myriad of your other faults and provide a much-needed focus of temporary discontent. This is your signal to crawl with convincing humility.

 

Meanwhile the enjoyment continues and the forgiveness blossoms.

 

Married--and an audiophile-- for 48 years. Just saying.

 

and I have you to thank you.  I showed your brilliant reasoning to her, and now I have permission  for the Psvanes    !!!  

[aussievintage]

So now, searching for the cheapest price for a pair of Psvane 12AX7  (and a reliable supplier).  

 

This has to be a safe bet -  http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/12ax7-tii-pair-or-single/  for $100  US

 

But here is a lot cheaper, $63, but, has anyone dealt with them?  http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-12ax7-t-mkii

 

Amazon won't ship to Australia.

 

 

[aussievintage]

While I order the Psvanes, I am still investigating.  I just came across the 12AD7.   This is supposedly a low noise/hum version, with similar gain,  that should make a good substitute in that first gain position.     Akai used them in their reel to reels, and I happen to have an old Akai M7 (mechanically defunct).  Sure enough a lovely NEC 12AD7 valve in each amp module. As they can command a good price on eBay, I will count myself lucky.

 

The 12AD7 draws a little more heater current,  but I know my phono preamps can handle it.  So I tried them, one in first and one in second position.  This was the quietest I have heard the preamp, so the 12AD7 lives up to that rumour !    I did think the gain was a little down though.  I didn't measure it, so it is just an impression.    I need to spend more time just listening.

 

I also found, in my back shed, 2 lovely Philips Miniwatt 12AX7s.  Over the weekend I will clean these up and have a listening session, these vs the 12AD7s vs the Shuguang derivatives.

Edited October 4, 2019 by aussievintage

[doogie44]

Those Phillips Miniwatts should be very good indeed. Your garage needs a thorough investigation.

 

The AKAI M7 had some of the nicest SEP amps (internal modules) as did the M8. Low power but sweet. Worth repairing??

 

If you're interested in substitutes then the Western Electric 420 + adaptor socket functions as a superior 12AX7. Here is a copy of a recent SNA ad. [Also I have added the place you can go to buy matched tubes--a very good NOS tube website.]

 

I have used these tubes and they sound excellent.

 

AD FOLLOWS:

By MGO

Item: Western Electric 420a >> 12AX7 or 12AT7 Tubes with Adaptors NOS

For sale are these great sounding Western Electric 420a /JW 5755 NOS tubes which when coupled with an adaptor (included) function as a superior 12AX7 or a 12AT7.  

 

They are much better in many ways than other 12AX7s I have tried, including: Mullard, Telefunken, Amperex and any Chinese tubes (Psvane etc).

 

The most obvious improvements came in bass drive and resolution. Greater timbral information and texture is evident throughout the mids and bass.  Glorious textural information not experienced with any of the tubes mentioned above.  Dynamics are scary.  Clarity is excellent. 

 

Designed for very low microphonics… 

The WE 420a "features special cathode springs which reduce microphonic response. This characteristic is controlled by a "microphonic stability" test for balance in which the tube is tapped at shock levels of 400 - 600G."   Very fine wires (springs) just above the top mica can be seen in pics.

 

The specs are a little different from a 12AX7 which has an amplification factor of 100, 12AT7 is 60, and the Western Electric 420a is 70.

 

I have tried the Raytheon 5755 equivalent and as expected the Western Electric sounds better and is reliable (the Raytheon is not).  WE is the real deal!

 

I guarantee these will be keepers irrespective of the tubes you are using.

 

Happy to demo against Mullard and Psvane or your own tubes to serious buyers.

 

http://tubes.tw

Western Electric 420A=5755(~ECC83/12AX7) ,1970s, O getter,one of the best! USD$25.55 USD$19.08/per piece

Click to enlarge Stock : 100+ pcs. Status : NOS Box : original 200 pcs Western Electric master box, WB Descriptions : This item is 420A/5755 tube! ( 5755/420A is not a direct replacement tube of ECC83/12AX7 )!! 5755/420A+ socket converter = ECC83/12AX7 !! You need to buy a converter socket if you want to use 5755/420A in your ECC83/12AX7/5755 amp!! We have such socket for sale, just choose on the bottom of this page! Western Electric 420A=5755, similar to 12AX7/ECC83 but different pin layout! It need a socket converter for 12AX7/ECC83 amp. (=>hand made socket converter ), (=>[420A+ socket converter]=12AX7),   Available Options: socket converter ($8.75) and tube matching ($1.75)

 

[Ittaku]

On 04/10/2019 at 10:08 AM, aussievintage said:

So now, searching for the cheapest price for a pair of Psvane 12AX7  (and a reliable supplier).  

 

This has to be a safe bet -  http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/12ax7-tii-pair-or-single/  for $100  US

 

But here is a lot cheaper, $63, but, has anyone dealt with them?  http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-12ax7-t-mkii

I'd be worried about buying them from anywhere but psvane themselves direct. The Chinese valves are notorious for relabelling any old crap. But if you're game enough and after the cheapest you can find them, Aliexpress probably has the cheapest. For example:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32812108704.html

[aussievintage]

6 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

The AKAI M7 had some of the nicest SEP amps (internal modules) as did the M8. Low power but sweet. Worth repairing??

It's a project on the backburner.  I agree, the AKAI amp modules are very nice.   The only downside is that they run on 100 volts.  A internal transformer in the tape recorder supplies this to each of the modules, so not a big problem.   I envisaged a nice pair of monoblocks made from them.

 

9 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

Those Phillips Miniwatts should be very good indeed. Your garage needs a thorough investigation.

It's always an adventure  

 

10 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

If you're interested in substitutes then the Western Electric 420 + adaptor socket functions as a superior 12AX7.

Haven't gone there yet, but as these are my own amps, I can rewire the sockets, or even rebuild one for an entirely different valve, like maybe a pentode input.  I have an EL34 SE amp that I once changed the input 12AX7s for 6J7 (old pentodes with a top cap for the signal input - odd but nice)

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

I'd be worried about buying them from anywhere but psvane themselves direct. The Chinese valves are notorious for relabelling any old crap

 That was my fear.  Anything way under the normal price may well be fake.  

 

 

[aussievintage]

Can't listen much today, too busy, but I did get time to clean up and photograph them.  I popped the Philips in and they do sound nice.

 

The Philips Miniwatt

 

 

The NEC 12AD7s

 

 

The Shuguang rebadged National and Ruby

 

 

 

[SETfan]

Modern production tubes I have had good results with (and would recommend) are the TJ Full Music 12ax7's and the Genelex Gold Lion 12ax7, using in my Audio Research SP6B preamp which includes phono... 

[eman]

On 04/10/2019 at 10:08 AM, aussievintage said:

So now, searching for the cheapest price for a pair of Psvane 12AX7  (and a reliable supplier).  

 

This has to be a safe bet -  http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/12ax7-tii-pair-or-single/  for $100  US

 

But here is a lot cheaper, $63, but, has anyone dealt with them?  http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-12ax7-t-mkii

 

Amazon won't ship to Australia.

 

 

Get back to us when you've given them a run. I'd be interested how they stack up to your old ones there.

 

Looks like Shuguang have another generation since I was looking last,  although " The TII series 12AX7 remain the same as the T-series except the packaging changes. " from your first Psvane link is typically mind bending of the tube field.

 

I've had a set of the Shuguang Treasures KT 88s and they were great. Obviously a very different sort of tube though.

 

 

[d_caruso]

10 hours ago, aussievintage said:

I also found, in my back shed, 2 lovely Philips Miniwatt 12AX7s.  Over the weekend I will clean these up and have a listening session, these vs the 12AD7s vs the Shuguang derivatives.

 

Yeah, I really like the Australian made Philips Miniwatt. I use a long plate late 50s Mullard 12ax7 with 2x Brimar 12au7s in my 300B pre stage and the Philips is really close in tone to the Mullard in that position IMO. I also use a Telefunken smooth plate and Amperex ‘Hammond’ 12ax7 tubes in my phono stage. All very different sounding tubes (the Amperex’s sound thick and wet compared to airy and dry Telefunken to me) but after much mixing and matching, this strange combo works best for me.

 

As for new production 12ax7s, I’ll cast a vote for the Sophia Electric. I used one in my preamp stage for years before I got the Mullard. It definitely has a more modern sound than my NOS tubes. It lacks a bit of the 3D and ‘space’ I find I get with the Mullard and Telefunken, but it has plenty of tight lows and good, smooth treble extension. Miles ahead of the JJ in my phono stage, which to me sound thin and flat in comparison. I’ve had Genelex Gold Lions in my preamp. They were better than the JJ but not as articulate as the Sophia Electric.

Edited October 5, 2019 by d_caruso

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, eman said:

Get back to us when you've given them a run. I'd be interested how they stack up to your old ones there.

Certainly will.  Delivery might take a few weeks though.

 

1 hour ago, eman said:

Looks like Shuguang have another generation since I was looking last,  although " The TII series 12AX7 remain the same as the T-series except the packaging changes. " from your first Psvane link is typically mind bending of the tube field.

Actually there appears to be a newer even more expensive option to the TII.  A black bottle thing.

[aussievintage]

38 minutes ago, d_caruso said:

Yeah, I really like the Australian made Philips Miniwatt. I use a long plate late 50s Mullard 12ax7 with 2x Brimar 12au7s in my 300B pre stage and the Philips is really close in tone to the Mullard in that position IMO.

 

Mullards like these?  Guess I need to slot them into the playlist too.

 

Guess I need to slot them into the playlist too.

 

 

 

[aussievintage]

 

Had a nice listening session this morning.  Just for info, I decided to use Sergio Mendes & Brasil '77 Live as a test album.  It has lot's of the things I want to listen for.  Female vocals, percussive instruments, good balance, and real reverb from the venue where it was recorded.   I placed each pair of similar valves in the preamp together, I did not mix and match brands.

 

I took notes on hum/induced noise, microphony, noise (tube 'rush'), and of course, sound.     One surprise was the Mullards were VERY microphonic, (and none of the others were microphonic to any audible extent when tapped).  The Mullards also were the ones I like least.  There was something dry about their sound.  However, they had probably second lowest hum/induced noise.

 

The  NEC 12AD7s on the other hand, had the lowest hum - as expected, this is their design intent.    Sound was quite good - middle of the pack I would say, along with the Shuguang -National/Ruby types.

 

The Shuguang and Philips Miniwatt were similar on hum/noise.  Maybe the Miniwatt were a touch noisier, but given I only have 2 of each and it changed a bit when they were swapped between positions 1 and 2 in the phono preamp, I wouldn't call it one way or the other.

 

However, there was some magic in the sound of the Miniwatt that beat the others.  If I were to choose some superlatives, I would say lushness, and expansiveness.    The Shuguangs and NECs were next best.  Very listenable.  Maybe the Shuguangs had slightly more solid bass.

 

So there it is.  A not-so-scientific Sunday morning test of the best of the used valves I have at the moment.

[eman]

17 hours ago, aussievintage said:

Certainly will.  Delivery might take a few weeks though.

 

Actually there appears to be a newer even more expensive option to the TII.  A black bottle thing.

Yeah I saw those Shuguang black glass. Same look as the KT 88 Treasures I had that were really good. I'm drawn to those.

 

Every time I get rational and think I'll stop trying different ones some other temptation comes up.... and it's usually the costy ones.

[aussievintage]

They're on their way.  Now for the impatient waiting...  

Psvane 12AX7-TII vacuum tubes$99.00 USD

Shipping$1.63 USD
Total$100.63 USD

[eman]

Looks like the Shuguang black glass ones come in TA & TG.

 

I wonder if there's any actual  difference?

 

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, eman said:

Looks like the Shuguang black glass ones come in TA & TG.

 

I wonder if there's any actual  difference?

 

They are both priced quite a bit more that the TIIs I ordered.  Law of diminishing returns?  I fear I may have gone far enough with mine