Guest Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 1 minute ago, rmpfyf said: It's the work in the roof in particular (DC side and structural) that can burn a house down, and most inspectors don't audit that. That is not very comforting! How then do any of us laymen know that the work was done properly on our own systems?
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: That is not very comforting! How then do any of us laymen know that the work was done properly on our own systems? You generally don't I'm in the industry and am having a cabling non compliance in my roof rectified. It's more common than you think. Yes, there are protection systems throughout - more with good inverters - but don't take chances. Don't get crap people, don't go cheap and don't make them rush. Top installers are on 20-25% margin, the cheapies in a rush at 5%... Though the numbers look tasty I'd advise never to play at the bottom end. Ever.
Addicted to music Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 Here’s the email reply that I got from Solar Victoria today: Thanks for your inquiry. Any remaining customer applications that are approved and awaiting installation will continue. Community Energy Group trading as Space Solar will be required to use different installers than those identified and Banned as a result of the Safety Audits. The installations of these systems will be independently audit (as all systems are) by Electrical Safety Victoria (ESV). Should you require any further information you can visit www.solar.vic.gov.au or contact us on 1300 376 393 (Monday to Friday 8:30am-5:00pm). Kind regards, The Solar Victoria Team
Addicted to music Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 4 hours ago, rmpfyf said: You generally don't That just about sums it up. What are the chances of getting another installer that’s just as non compliant? Look at the building industry, the signing off on inflammable cladding, dodgy structural certificates etc etc... when I was building I was questioning the builder and the inspector on structural defects, now you can’t even win the highest court in the land if the architecture who designs the building goes out and literally approves the defect.....yes believe me it’s happen to me! Once they signed off approving structural defects and something happens on the disputed issues you use that approval against them im court and there insurance pay for rectification. On the nine msn link it also suspects dodgy inspectors and I’m sure that Space Solar was just unlucky to be caught out, I’m sure they won’t be the last either..... The reason I didn’t use one of our family friends electrical contracting who’s just been approved and trying to sell us a PV System is because I’m more knowledgeable then he is even though he’s been approved and accredited to install PV.
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Addicted to music said: Here’s the email reply that I got from Solar Victoria today: Thanks for your inquiry. Any remaining customer applications that are approved and awaiting installation will continue. Community Energy Group trading as Space Solar will be required to use different installers than those identified and Banned as a result of the Safety Audits. The installations of these systems will be independently audit (as all systems are) by Electrical Safety Victoria (ESV). Should you require any further information you can visit www.solar.vic.gov.au or contact us on 1300 376 393 (Monday to Friday 8:30am-5:00pm). Kind regards, The Solar Victoria Team Yeah nah, I'd not be happy with that. That's not a few dodgy operators, that's a cultural issue. Yes, it's endemic to the industry and incentivised by schemes as this where more work = cashing in, but it's not good. That basically means Solar Victoria is not doing any audits themselves - they're using the usual ESV process. Sparkies get penalty points and can lose the right to undertake work, if they weren't sparkies to start with then there's nada to ban. Your average ESV auditor does not climb into your ceiling to check DC insulation, does not get up on your roof. It's a look around, a look in your meter box under the switchboard cover and that's about it. If you want to progress with them I'd demand a solid explanation of what was found that made news and how/why this doesn't affect your job. Yes, there's crap in every operator out there, and mistakes happen - the audit system exists to make safe, not to prove perfection, it's a management system that assumes mistakes can and will happen on a large enough scale, it's a good thing that it's there. I'd get that explanation. Very surprised you can't take the credit with you. That's bullshido.
Addicted to music Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Yeah nah, I'd not be happy with that. That's not a few dodgy operators, that's a cultural issue. Yes, it's endemic to the industry and incentivised by schemes as this where more work = cashing in, but it's not good. That basically means Solar Victoria is not doing any audits themselves - they're using the usual ESV process. Sparkies get penalty points and can lose the right to undertake work, if they weren't sparkies to start with then there's nada to ban. Your average ESV auditor does not climb into your ceiling to check DC insulation, does not get up on your roof. It's a look around, a look in your meter box under the switchboard cover and that's about it. If you want to progress with them I'd demand a solid explanation of what was found that made news and how/why this doesn't affect your job. Yes, there's crap in every operator out there, and mistakes happen - the audit system exists to make safe, not to prove perfection, it's a management system that assumes mistakes can and will happen on a large enough scale, it's a good thing that it's there. I'd get that explanation. Very surprised you can't take the credit with you. That's bullshido. Let me guess what I’m looking for.... High voltage DC to the MPPT ... wiring must be insulated for 500-1000VDC and will require wiring far capable and over the the spec with insulation and conduit and the wires must run separated to GND to the inverter..... The single phase 5kw Fronius will have 2 MPPT and my installation will be occupying both. High volage DC from PV for both side of the roof will not need to be entering roof space, they will drop to the floor via the side of the wall where the inverter will be installed and where the smart meter is.... From my last discussion the requirements are now changed, apparently no wires are to be hidden behind walls..... Edited: you are right and I agree, it’s a cultural issue and it’s endemic, but I would say that’s for most industry..... Its justification for Solar Victoria to justify there accreditation to a supplier that got caught doing the wrong thing! And they won’t be the last either! Edited October 10, 2019 by Addicted to music
LogicprObe Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 6 hours ago, rmpfyf said: You generally don't I'm in the industry and am having a cabling non compliance in my roof rectified. It's more common than you think. Yes, there are protection systems throughout - more with good inverters - but don't take chances. Don't get crap people, don't go cheap and don't make them rush. Top installers are on 20-25% margin, the cheapies in a rush at 5%... Though the numbers look tasty I'd advise never to play at the bottom end. Ever. Yeah, well I just made everything easy for them and they performed above expectations. That said, it was above bottom price but not everyone is in the position to make the job easy.
Addicted to music Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 18 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: That is not very comforting! How then do any of us laymen know that the work was done properly on our own systems? One way to totally avoid this is use micro inverters, however this usually adds 30% extra.
betty boop Posted October 10, 2019 Posted October 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: One way to totally avoid this is use micro inverters, however this usually adds 30% extra. Just comes down to whether in particular instance whether the 30% would ever be recouped .... amazing how years go by with these things ... even though my system took while to pay off its been chugging along many years since and can’t imagine the savings in power given how much cost of that has sky rocketed and continues to do ...
Guest Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, rmpfyf said: You generally don't I'm in the industry and am having a cabling non compliance in my roof rectified. It's more common than you think. Yes, there are protection systems throughout - more with good inverters - but don't take chances. Don't get crap people, don't go cheap and don't make them rush. Top installers are on 20-25% margin, the cheapies in a rush at 5%... Though the numbers look tasty I'd advise never to play at the bottom end. Ever. Thank you @rmpfyf for your advice to forum members. My own installation 3 years ago is a good case study backing your advice (though I did not realise that until your post!). -------------- I recall that when they were installing my system, the installers had to replace the DC cable which I asked the builders to add when we built our house. They could have easily used that wrong cable and I would not have been any wiser. Also, the guys identified a faulty solar panel next door and disconnected it so that the rest of the panels could work, and at no charge for the neighbors. Kudos to my installers and I am confident they have done things correctly. I picked an above average priced quote using Q Cells panels and Fronious Inverter because I had concerns then about some of the volume sellers. I did get a quote from one of them but they could not or would not answer some of my questions about the panels, and inverter. I did not think then about asking in detail about their installers, but in the light of recent stories, I would now. Edited October 11, 2019 by Snoopy8 Typo
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 28 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Thank you @rmpfyf for your advice to forum members. My own installation 3 years ago is a good case study backing your advice (though I did not realise that until your post!). -------------- I recall that when they were installing my system, the installers had to replace the DC cable which I asked the builders to add when we built our house. They could have easily used that wrong cable and I would not have been any wiser. Also, the guys identified a faulty solar panel next door and disconnected it so that the rest of the panels could work, and at no charge for the neighbors. Kudos to my installers and I am confident they have done things correctly. I picked an above average priced quote using Q Cells panels and Fronious Inverter because I had concerns then about some of the volume sellers. I did a quote from one of them but they could not or would not answer some of my questions about the panels, and inverter. I did not think then about asking in detail about their installers, but in the light of recent stories, I would now. That's a solid story... well done - always good to hear of positive experiences. Nice panels you've got there too!
Addicted to music Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 5 hours ago, betty boop said: Just comes down to whether in particular instance whether the 30% would ever be recouped .... amazing how years go by with these things ... even though my system took while to pay off its been chugging along many years since and can’t imagine the savings in power given how much cost of that has sky rocketed and continues to do ... One of the reasons why I didn’t go for top of the line components..... As I’ve discussed before, like most industry it changes due to innovation, improvements..... when I looked at this a decade ago, the max panels then was only 220-240W max. Micro inverters such as enphase was just entering the market.... and reliability was questionable. How things have change. Now the average Panels is 300W max at 400w.... we also have 1/2 panels.... hybrid inverters etc etc.... Better monitoring on apps and most inverters are wifi ready!
Spider27 Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Got another 3 quotes and these seem coming with nicer equipments than original budget ones. Quote #4) 6kW Solar System - $11,990 + 20 x 300W Q Cell Black Solar Panels + 5kW GoodWe Inverter or ABB Inverter (additional $1K) Quote #5) 5kW Solar System - $12,800 + 14 x 350w LG NeON 2 Solar Panels + Fronius Primo 5.0kW Inverter Quote #6) 7kW Solar System - $16,350 + 20 x 350w LG NeON 2 Solar Panels + Fronius Primo 6.0 kW Inverter My preference is Quote #4 which seem good output and better pricing (7kW is overkill in my situation since I just want to achieve carbon neutral and zero elec bill). However, I am not sure how good Q Cell Solar Panel is comparing with LG NeON Panels. Both are manufactured in South Korea. And, is GoodWe Inverter not good? According to my quick internet browsing, Chinese solar panel just SUCKS but GoodWe inverter seem getting good reputation. Edited October 11, 2019 by Spider27
Addicted to music Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 Panel testing at CSIRO. And the finding I’m Choice.. https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/solar/articles/solar-panel-test-what-we-found 1
gt1482 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Spider27 said: Quote #4) 6kW Solar System - $11,990 + 20 x 300W Q Cell Black Solar Panels + 5kW GoodWe Inverter or ABB Inverter (additional $1K) My system was installed about half a year ago, also using Q Cells panels with Fronius inverter. I think I paid a lot less. Is the price before STCs?
Spider27 Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 Just now, gt1482 said: My system was installed about half a year ago, also using Q Cells panels with Fronius inverter. I think I paid a lot less. Is the price before STCs? Yes, this is the price before STC etc.
Spider27 Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Panel testing at CSIRO. And the finding I’m Choice.. https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/solar/articles/solar-panel-test-what-we-found Wow. LG and Q Cell have quite a bit of difference in terms of score. Thank you for sharing..
gt1482 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 Just now, Spider27 said: Yes, this is the price before STC etc. Shouldn't the quote tell you what the amount for STCs will be? Otherwise, how will you know how much to pay? PM me if you want to compare with what I paid just for reference. 1
acg Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 On 09/10/2019 at 1:06 PM, rmpfyf said: Bottom line with stationary batteries is that for the majority of the market, customers have to want it and be prepared to pay for their wants. That is at interesting point @rmpfyf Currently, I am looking into a solar/battery system to take part of our house off grid. The decision is driven mostly by want rather than need, but I think it may almost make a bit of sense financially as well. We have solar with a 44c FIT until 2028. Because I work from home and have an audio system that draws roughly 1kW plus computers/monitors adding about 500w more, plus a reluctantly used office AC unit that draws circa 1.2kW a lot of our solar generated power is wasted on me instead of offsetting the actual power bill. At the moment I wait for the office to start to get uncomfortable (which is 30C at my desk) before I start the air-con. I would prefer to use the AC more often, perhaps as often as half the days of the year, but tend to grin and bear it and it would not go on more than one-third of that amount. If it cost me no more to run it than to not run it then I would certainly use it more often, and differently. So, the acoustic system and computers go on at 6am or so and heats things up till I shut it down at say 8pm or later, probably 300 days of the year. The AC could be used 180 days for maybe 8 hours average. I'm looking at putting all that stuff off-grid with 10kWh BYD\Pylontech LiFePo4 batteries and perhaps as much as 7kW of 405w Sunpower commercial panels, and Victron inverters/mppt/chargers etc.. Not a cheap system, but tax deductable (I think) and by my back of the envelope calcs could put maybe $2k of power back into the grid annually with the existing 44c feed in tarrif as well as letting me be more frivolous with use of the AC. Payback not necessarily achieved by 2028 when the 44c FIT lapses, but pretty close, and hopefully many more years of service following. If I consider the relatively 'free' cost of powering my office until 2028 in addition to the FIT boost, payback is probably somewhere in 2024 and 'all cream' after that. Plus my acoustic system based on century old valve technology could be powered off-grid by ultra-modern LiFePo4 batteries at night...the dichotomy
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, acg said: That is at interesting point @rmpfyf Currently, I am looking into a solar/battery system to take part of our house off grid. The decision is driven mostly by want rather than need, but I think it may almost make a bit of sense financially as well. We have solar with a 44c FIT until 2028. Because I work from home and have an audio system that draws roughly 1kW plus computers/monitors adding about 500w more, plus a reluctantly used office AC unit that draws circa 1.2kW a lot of our solar generated power is wasted on me instead of offsetting the actual power bill. At the moment I wait for the office to start to get uncomfortable (which is 30C at my desk) before I start the air-con. I would prefer to use the AC more often, perhaps as often as half the days of the year, but tend to grin and bear it and it would not go on more than one-third of that amount. If it cost me no more to run it than to not run it then I would certainly use it more often, and differently. So, the acoustic system and computers go on at 6am or so and heats things up till I shut it down at say 8pm or later, probably 300 days of the year. The AC could be used 180 days for maybe 8 hours average. I'm looking at putting all that stuff off-grid with 10kWh BYD\Pylontech LiFePo4 batteries and perhaps as much as 7kW of 405w Sunpower commercial panels, and Victron inverters/mppt/chargers etc.. Not a cheap system, but tax deductable (I think) and by my back of the envelope calcs could put maybe $2k of power back into the grid annually with the existing 44c feed in tarrif as well as letting me be more frivolous with use of the AC. Payback not necessarily achieved by 2028 when the 44c FIT lapses, but pretty close, and hopefully many more years of service following. If I consider the relatively 'free' cost of powering my office until 2028 in addition to the FIT boost, payback is probably somewhere in 2024 and 'all cream' after that. Plus my acoustic system based on century old valve technology could be powered off-grid by ultra-modern LiFePo4 batteries at night...the dichotomy Victron makes a super solid inverter - if you wanted to go local along similar lines you could look at Selectronic. There's a ton of stuff that's lesser that'll work (Goodwe makes a good 'un that'll take your PV requirements if single phase)... the Victron/Selectronic options are built like tanks and last accordingly. None are bad though. Can you expand your existing PV system and keep your FIT? I've only evaluated BYD's latest from a cell perspective, it'll be interesting to see whether the balance of system holds up but in short they're a very good cell, among the best in industry at the moment - no offence Tesla freaks - they just take up a lot of room. The system is massively expandable, which is nice also. Wouldn't consider the Pylontechs in the same league as the BYD LV. Sunpower on the other hand makes a very nice panel (you pay for what you get). I would look quite seriously into an energy management solution capable of talking to your kit and managing your demand response loads... Some of the nicer solutions will do some circuit-level submetering too, which you might enjoy/get use out of. I'm having something implemented at my home for this but it's a bit of custom coding for trials, and I spent on a HVAC controller that will do comms over RS485 (I have a customer that went all-out on his multi-split system having PLC sense his export and drive his aircon to variable loads). What you could do at a hack-but-no-so-hack level is get yourself something like a Reposit Power box - or anything that supports IFTTT or API development and will report when you have export etc - and get yourself something similarly equipped to run your HVAC intelligently (a Sensibo would do) and code a little logic between the two... possibly your HVAC supports AS/NZS 4755 (DRED, or you might know it as Peaksmart) and you could find an inverter that'll drive that through relays or a management system with a separate interface that'll do the same (e.g. carbonTRACK is one). All possible, just getting the various bits to work together...
acg Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Victron makes a super solid inverter - if you wanted to go local along similar lines you could look at Selectronic. There's a ton of stuff that's lesser that'll work (Goodwe makes a good 'un that'll take your PV requirements if single phase)... the Victron/Selectronic options are built like tanks and last accordingly. None are bad though To be honest, the Victron choice is because Living Voice uses that brand to power their $1m+ horn systems...call me a copycat. It was the first brand offered and I said 'look no further'. 47 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Can you expand your existing PV system and keep your FIT? Apparently, but I cannot feed in any more power into the grid as it is already maxed out at the inverter. This new stuff is off-grid. 50 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: I've only evaluated BYD's latest from a cell perspective, it'll be interesting to see whether the balance of system holds up but in short they're a very good cell, among the best in industry at the moment - no offence Tesla freaks - they just take up a lot of room. The system is massively expandable, which is nice also. Wouldn't consider the Pylontechs in the same league as the BYD LV. Sunpower on the other hand makes a very nice panel (you pay for what you get). BYD's were offered first but I saw some Aus research (see page 26) that showed the Pylontechs with significantly less loss of storage capacity with time. Both were excellent, but the Pylontechs were much better than the BYD. 55 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Sunpower on the other hand makes a very nice panel (you pay for what you get). Yes, they are expensive. I am limited at the moment by roof space hence the higher performance panels, but if we put up a carport the cheaper panels will be feasible...we will see. 58 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: I would look quite seriously into an energy management solution capable of talking to your kit and managing your demand response loads... Some of the nicer solutions will do some circuit-level submetering too, which you might enjoy/get use out of. There is some kind of colour display/monitor/control included in the package...I'll have to look into just what that is. 1 hour ago, rmpfyf said: I'm having something implemented at my home for this but it's a bit of custom coding for trials, and I spent on a HVAC controller that will do comms over RS485 (I have a customer that went all-out on his multi-split system having PLC sense his export and drive his aircon to variable loads). What you could do at a hack-but-no-so-hack level is get yourself something like a Reposit Power box - or anything that supports IFTTT or API development and will report when you have export etc - and get yourself something similarly equipped to run your HVAC intelligently (a Sensibo would do) and code a little logic between the two... possibly your HVAC supports AS/NZS 4755 (DRED, or you might know it as Peaksmart) and you could find an inverter that'll drive that through relays or a management system with a separate interface that'll do the same (e.g. carbonTRACK is one). All possible, just getting the various bits to work together... I'll look into this, but mostly it is gobble-d-**** to me at this stage. Are you saying that it is possible to control the AC power draw according to what the solar/batteries are able to produce at that particular moment?
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, acg said: To be honest, the Victron choice is because Living Voice uses that brand to power their $1m+ horn systems...call me a copycat. It was the first brand offered and I said 'look no further'. Ha! 10 minutes ago, acg said: Apparently, but I cannot feed in any more power into the grid as it is already maxed out at the inverter. This new stuff is off-grid. So what will you do when there's no power? 10 minutes ago, acg said: BYD's were offered first but I saw some Aus research (see page 26) that showed the Pylontechs with significantly less loss of storage capacity with time. Both were excellent, but the Pylontechs were much better than the BYD. That's an older generation cell - I'm talking about this one https://rfisolar.com.au/byd-b-plus-l-3-5kwh-lv-battery-unit.html#.XaB0NuczafU 11 minutes ago, acg said: Yes, they are expensive. I am limited at the moment by roof space hence the higher performance panels, but if we put up a carport the cheaper panels will be feasible...we will see. Very nice kit. If you get the carport add more good panels 12 minutes ago, acg said: There is some kind of colour display/monitor/control included in the package...I'll have to look into just what that is. Yes! Let us know. 12 minutes ago, acg said: I'll look into this, but mostly it is gobble-d-**** to me at this stage. Are you saying that it is possible to control the AC power draw according to what the solar/batteries are able to produce at that particular moment? Yes it is. There are some solutions that will do this super well, too. Depends in part what you have for HVAC. The customer with the PLC's home is awesome to this end - there's seasonal variable temperature setpoints, some smarts to work out occupancy, and then it does its thing based on excess PV. Very nicely played. But there's cheaper, simpler stuff out there too.
acg Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 12 hours ago, rmpfyf said: So what will you do when there's no power? The batteries will charge from the grid...they just cannot discharge to the grid. 12 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Yes! Let us know. I think it is this one. 12 hours ago, rmpfyf said: 12 hours ago, acg said: I'll look into this, but mostly it is gobble-d-**** to me at this stage. Are you saying that it is possible to control the AC power draw according to what the solar/batteries are able to produce at that particular moment? Yes it is. There are some solutions that will do this super well, too. Depends in part what you have for HVAC. The customer with the PLC's home is awesome to this end - there's seasonal variable temperature setpoints, some smarts to work out occupancy, and then it does its thing based on excess PV. Very nicely played. But there's cheaper, simpler stuff out there too. 12 hours ago, rmpfyf said: That's an older generation cell - I'm talking about this one https://rfisolar.com.au/byd-b-plus-l-3-5kwh-lv-battery-unit.html#.XaB0NuczafU Nice. Seems about the same $/kWh and a much simpler mounting system at least. Does it come in black? haha.
agelessgoodguy Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 Have a chat to Cherry Energy or PM me for a contact, only do high quality installs. As for rebates make sure your energy supplier gives you at least 0.20 / KW/hr ok. 1
Kosmic Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) I can highly recommend our own solar system.....it works just fine. Edited October 14, 2019 by Kosmic 1
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