HQD Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 Personally I don't see the point of buying an unknown quantity Chinese SS amp when there are so many good quality and moderately priced vintage (ie USED) Japan made amps out there. At least if you buy a good brand/reputation used amplifier you can always resell it for similar money if you don't like it. With a new Chinese amp you will get back 50% or less if you want to part with it later on. (Full disclosure - I was the proprietor of Hifi Exchange in Melbourne until four years ago. I currently have no affiliation with any commercial ventures but I did experience first hand the instant depreciation of NEW mid-Fi SS equipment starting from the time the buyer walked out of the dealers front door...... or more often from the time it arrived in the post via ebay! 3
Berkel Posted October 23, 2019 Author Posted October 23, 2019 Thanks for your insight, which is quite correct. You must be John, formerly of John's Hi Fi Exchange. I used to visit frequently. 1
Monkeyboi Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 Whilst some Chinese designed gear is good there is an awful lot of crap out there. Some are clones of well known designs but IMHO many of the Chinese manufacturers are where the Japanese were in the 1950s and 60s. Copiers but not good at it. There is a saying that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, but where the Chinese sometimes get it very wrong is in circuit topography. It's all very well copying a well known design (circuit wise and even using almost exactly the components) but if the layout is all wrong the "copy" is no longer a copy and potentially performance can be less than equal as a friend and fellow SNAer found out. He purchased a Chinese clone of a very well known brand pre-amplifier only to be disappointed by the poor hum levels. On opening it up he found some basic no-nos in the layout. Untwisted transformer secondary a.c. wiring run in parallel with high input impedance low signal level cabling. Cosmetically it looked beautiful as it was very neatly loomed together, but electrically unsound practices. So after a bit of surgery and relocating the input switching board to the rear of chassis close to the input sockets where it should have been and keeping the a.c. power supply wiring well separated from the signal cabling (as it should be), the annoying hum disappeared. There are other things that as a person with an electronics background I find somewhat annoying is some designs show almost no hallmarks of the understanding of basic good design. For instance, paralleling power supply diodes with the false belief that they will harmoniously "share" the current load. Using filtering capacitors with too low a ripple current rating. Sure they work, but their lifespan is significantly compromised and they usually fail, sometimes with spectacular consequences as they spew their guts and what's left of the electrolyte all over the innards of the equipment. Other considerations might be inadequate tolerance margins. Gear designed for 220v running on higher 240v or possibly higher. It's not unusual for the mains voltage in rural Australia to fluctuate significantly despite the so called standards. I've measured the mains voltage as high as 257 volts, so if there isn't much margin built into their 220v equipment it isn't going to like having almost an extra 40 volts supplied to it. Please don't think that I'm anti-Chinese. Some of their gear is very good. Just beware of some of the clone claims. You might be somewhat disappointed if you have heard the genuine gear and expect the same performance for a faction of the price. Cheers, Alan R. 4
Berkel Posted October 24, 2019 Author Posted October 24, 2019 Thank you for the interesting response. I really don't have much of a grasp of electronics, but nevertheless I understand what you're saying. I think I'll stick to " known origin " brands. Cheers, Dennis
Guest Muon N' Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 Still do your research on even well known western brands, there are still some shockers (unreliable) among them.
HorizonR Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 54 minutes ago, Monkeyboi said: Please don't think that I'm anti-Chinese. Some of their gear is very good. Just beware of some of the clone claims. You might be somewhat disappointed if you have heard the genuine gear and expect the same performance for a faction of the price. Any specific name or model of the clones? I'm planning to explore the DIY market later and it might be necessary to aviod those craps.
aussievintage Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, HorizonR said: Any specific name or model of the clones? I'm planning to explore the DIY market later and it might be necessary to aviod those craps. At least with DIY, especially point to point wired, you get to fix a lot of the obvious mistakes, and upgrade any suspect components - as long as the basics, particularly the transformers, are acceptable. A note to this effect, those neatly wired amps look great, but messy point to point, shortest route wiring, is sometimes electrically superior in terms of noise pickup, capacitance leakage etc. Making everything parallel looks better, but may actually hinder the operation and effect the result detrimentally. 1
Guest Muon N' Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, aussievintage said: A note to this effect, those neatly wired amps look great, but messy point to point, shortest route wiring, is sometimes electrically superior in terms of noise pickup, capacitance leakage etc. Making everything parallel looks better, but may actually hinder the operation and effect the result detrimentally. Not the Ming Da I posted a picture of, they have a reputation that is very good. Edit: this is why people need to deeply research brands/models, as there are cheap amps that are constructed point to point that are poorly thought out with components used that are fake, or not rated for the job they need to do. Even with known western brands, google the brand and model like "XXXX issue/problem" and look at all the hits that can help with determining if they do indeed are a problem brand or model, and filter out those with an agenda of negative bias. Edited October 24, 2019 by Muon N'
aussievintage Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, Muon N' said: Not the Ming Da I posted a picture of, they have a reputation that is very good. That's why I said 'sometimes'. Well planned wiring can be neat, and not give troubles.
Guest Muon N' Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, aussievintage said: That's why I said 'sometimes'. Well planned wiring can be neat, and not give troubles. Yes, I edited where I agree and do understand where you were coming from. It's just that the only pic was one I posted of the older Ming Da, so just helping to clarify things for those that read the thread. My intention is good As was your own Edited October 24, 2019 by Muon N'
Monkeyboi Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) On 24/10/2019 at 9:34 AM, HorizonR said: Any specific name or model of the clones? I'm planning to explore the DIY market later and it might be necessary to aviod those craps. I believe the pre-amp bears the label on the front panel as "ASYPDZSW". It's apparently a Naim clone. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33014458149.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.29.63d636f2OfnG1A Apparently it sounded quite good and hum free after a few modifications. Cheers, Alan R. Edited October 25, 2019 by Monkeyboi
benny Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 I have a yaqin MC-10L - it is an older one, and the Power tranny was rated at 220v. It kept blowing the resistors you test the bias across, i've replaced them, and built a "buck" transformer to reduce the 240-250v wall voltage to around about 220v. Havent had a problem since. - I also changed the coupling capacitors to russian PIO's, the tubes (el34's) to either KT77 Gold Lions, or Tesla E34L's from the 90s. 6n1's have been replaced by ANOD and voshkod rocket 6n1p-ev's. Sonically, i prefer it to my yamaha integrated, and vincent integrated amps.
HorizonR Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 Strongly recommend SMSL AND TOPPING. Though they are not DIY but brands with reputation, they have budget prices and good performance. I'm also exploring the DIY market but before I'm 100% sure about something, I'll go with these brands. Btw I will be back to China in Jan, 2020 and back to Aus by the end of Feb I think. Great chance to try something from TaoBao. Let me know if anyone needs or is interested in anything. Cheers!
MattyW Posted November 6, 2019 Posted November 6, 2019 I've found there's quite a few decent tube integrated amps from China, solid state too. The Kinki Studio EX-M1 is meant to be excellent. I've also found the amps based around the darTZeel NHB108B to be excellent.
Headbanger Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 SS: Xindak monoblock XA8800MN is sonically quite a good performer and overall well made. Each monoblock is 22kg with a large toroidal amplifier and big power caps. Front panel is a 12mm machined aluminium block. Cap screws on the case like Bryston and other quality manufacturers. It is a 200W Class AB amp and Class A to 30W. Case/heat sink temp is around 50-55C which is tough on components. Probably could have backed off the Class A bias to 20W without compromising sound quality in any consequence and improved reliability. Biggest issue is a lack of schematics and service manuals as Xindak doesn’t want their gear cloned by other “competitors. Depreciation is worse than an equivalent name brand competitor from US/UK. Typically were $5k a pair when new, but now sell for approx $1200 a pair on SNA. A bargain but a recap may be needed due to high stress from heat.
Mark Krause Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 The other option is designed and QC done elsewhere and manufacture done in China or any developing country for that fact. Hegel is one brand that comes to mind.
Gordon Macfarlane Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 On 25/10/2019 at 9:05 PM, Monkeyboi said: I believe the pre-amp bears the label on the front panel as "ASYPDZSW". It's apparently a Naim clone. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33014458149.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.29.63d636f2OfnG1A Apparently it sounded quite good and hum free after a few modifications. Cheers, Alan R. Here is a link to the vids that i made describing the mods to the preamp. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzetTkXas1MKa2VNfgfxMzA/videos?view_as=subscriber
rantan Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mark Krause said: The other option is designed and QC done elsewhere and manufacture done in China or any developing country for that fact. Hegel is one brand that comes to mind. Perhaps you are confusing Hegel with Primare or some other Nordic company. Hegel is designed and made in Oslo Norway.
metal beat Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, rantan said: Perhaps you are confusing Hegel with Primare or some other Nordic company. Hegel is designed and made in Oslo Norway. Wrong. Hegel is manufactured in China using $8 a month labour. the pricing should be cheaper. Quote What I didn’t know before arriving at Hegel’s HQ is that they produce nothing but prototypes here. Manufacturing takes place in China, leaving the Norway HQ for product development, circuit design, parts sourcing, testing, repairs and software coding. https://darko.audio/2018/03/hit-the-north-a-visit-to-hegels-headquarters/ Edited January 3, 2020 by metal beat 3
bzr Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, metal beat said: Wrong. Hegel is manufactured in China using $8 a month labour. the pricing should be cheaper. https://darko.audio/2018/03/hit-the-north-a-visit-to-hegels-headquarters/ & maybe people should shed a thought on this when they get "their" bargain parallel import too...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 Yeah, best those workers be out of a job rather than on a low wage, Hay? I highly doubt it is $8 per month, that is artistic license provided to make things look worse than they are.
rantan Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) OK, OK, I was wrong. I surrender, but as @metal beat has said, at the prices Hegel is charging they should be made in Norway. Edited January 3, 2020 by rantan 1
Stump Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, metal beat said: Wrong. Hegel is manufactured in China using $8 a month labour. the pricing should be cheaper. https://darko.audio/2018/03/hit-the-north-a-visit-to-hegels-headquarters/ The days of $8 per month and a bag of rice are long gone. China's capital city Beijing will increase the minimum wage per month to 2,200 yuan ($ 322.38) for full-time employees and hourly wage for part-time employees to 24 yuan, the highest in the country, 1
Recommended Posts