Avantgarde & Audio Research

[WorkinClassAudio]

A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio is not flat to 100hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations. (See Later, I changed Trio setup).

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by GroovyGuru

[Fidelity Sounds]

Nice

[Full Range]

The speakers to my eyes look a little sexy

[sir sanders zingmore]

Welcome to the Avantgarde club  

 

If I had the space I’d love to upgrade to the trios 

[Bunno77]

Very nice.

Do you need Avantgarde's own subs to fill the gap? 

[Galactic Soap]

WOW - Brilliant. Congratulations mate. 

 

Looking forward to hearing how you solve that mid bass issue. 

 

Do you plan on hanging onto the Ref 160M's given the efficiency of the XD's?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Galactic Soap

[davewantsmoore]

The subwoofer will be capable of much higher frequencies than 120Hz.... if the electronics will allow it.

 

 

I thought there might be a chance that your subwoofer bypassed it's crossover (low pass filter, which can only be moved up to 120Hz) if you used its LFE/.1 intput

 

.... so I looked in the manual.      To say "the manual is unclear about this" seems a comical understatement.

 

Give it a go and see what happens (if you haven't already).

[Martykt]

6 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio does not go much below 200hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations.

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

 

 

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

[Bunno77]

4 minutes ago, Martykt said:

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

 

[Martykt]

7 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

 

I suppose that's one way to do it !!

[Rocketfrogs]

7 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

Graham 1.5t on Aura tt. 

Dave Whittaker's turntables are works of art.

[Tony M]

Now I know what my system might look like when it grows up. 

[Tweaky]

Ask forum moderator Alisterm for advice about your subs, he runs the same Avartgarde Trio set up as you, but uses Darzeel Amp's

[WorkinClassAudio]

8 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

Very nice.

Do you need Avantgarde's own subs to fill the gap? 

Avantgarde subs don't go very low, but they do go into the midbass.

[Bunno77]

2 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

Avantgarde subs don't go very low, but they do go into the midbass.

It looks like you can use the bass section from the Uno and Duo's too. Maybe they cover it all? Surely Avantgarde wouldn't leave out a section of the spectrum?

[WorkinClassAudio]

4 hours ago, Martykt said:

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

Yes, the Trio needs to be paired with Avantgarde subs.  I was hoping the REL would cope.  It doesn't do a bad job. 

[acg]

11 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio does not go much below 200hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations.

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

 

 

I have MC Anna on a Helix 2 with Schroder CB arm.  It is some kind of magic...

Edited December 11, 2019 by acg

[haygeebaby]

I think trio goes down to 150 and up to  20k hz. I am told the three horns blend together better than the duos which I have.

rel goes up to 150 I think. I’ve tested with the model below the 212se.

tuning is gonna be a *****.

ag subs will recommend a selectable range from 60 to 150 hz for matching the trio. 
 

 

 

[haygeebaby]

But very nice gear. Hang in there with the setup. Will take time. 
there is a avg group in audioshark. Lots of experience there that might help you with setup as well.

[haygeebaby]

I’d recommend the Jim Smith setup method for trying to find the best bass in the room.

He is also a regular on audioshark.

 

[haygeebaby]

I’d recommend you get some herbies giant gliders for the subs and the speakers. Will give you more clarity and make it easy to move those heavy things around. Which is probably the most difficult thing to do while tuning given the weights. 
At the same time get some herbies tube dampers for your ref6. They will increase clarity as well. 
Immediate upgrade and no burn in time required for both.

[haygeebaby]

Interesting! Sub231 does 60 to 350hz.

didnt the supplier mention this when you didn’t buy matching subs with the trios?

your future might see two more subs in your system.

[sir sanders zingmore]

@GroovyGuru one thing I’ve always wondered about the trios is whether the horns are fixed in position on the frame? Can you “fine tune” the sound by moving the horns?

[Ittaku]

I downloaded and read the through the 212SE subwoofer manual as well and the only thing it says is that the crossover can be set anywhere from 30 to 120Hz. It says nothing more, nor if there's a way to bypass the crossover entirely. 12" woofers should easily do up to much more than that so it is purely an electronic limit unfortunately. Perhaps they know the quality of frequencies those woofers reproduce above that range isn't ideal. My 16" subwoofer goes up to 230Hz with the crossover disabled, but the sound quality from that woofer above 80Hz is pretty bad.

[WorkinClassAudio]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

I downloaded and read the through the 212SE subwoofer manual as well and the only thing it says is that the crossover can be set anywhere from 30 to 120Hz. It says nothing more, nor if there's a way to bypass the crossover entirely. 12" woofers should easily do up to much more than that so it is purely an electronic limit unfortunately. Perhaps they know the quality of frequencies those woofers reproduce above that range isn't ideal. My 16" subwoofer goes up to 230Hz with the crossover disabled, but the sound quality from that woofer above 80Hz is pretty bad.

Yes, the upper limit on subwoofer crossovers as determined by the quality of bass above that frequency.  You want quality not just quantity from subwoofers, otherwise they are a rubbish product.  In fact REL don't even like the 212se at 120hz.   

 

For some reason, people seem to think I'm getting bad sound and I need to rearrange setup.  For the record, I'm getting good sound and don't need to do anything but pair up with a higher reaching sub.   I set up the Trio first, to get maximum bass from it.  Then I set up the sub, which is the way to set up a system. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by GroovyGuru