Show us your Phono Stages and Phono Cartridges

[Warren M.]

6 hours ago, Warren Jones said:

An Allclear Audio re-tipped Grado Opus 3, this has a Boron CL and MR diamond. It's only done 20 or so LP sides and it sounds fantastic, the separation is clearly audible and reminiscent of the Stanton 881s.

 

Anyone with a Grado Opus 3 that needs re-tipping this is worth additional $$.

 

This is the low output version and works with either my MM at 54dB or MC at 64dB. It's currently in the MC with 22kR loading. I found it a little too bright with 47kR.

 

If It's the same rebuild as my JLTi-branded Grado (jlti.com.au) then it's a LOT more than retipped! It really is an astonishing upgrade. I've set the impedance on mine to 10K Ohms. I've also tried 3K. It sounds great at either impedance. I agree that it's a bit too brash at 47K. And lifeless at 100 Ohms. Somewhere in the 1K to 20K range is it's sweet spot (and how wonderfully sweet it is!)

[buzz lightyear]

6 hours ago, Warren Jones said:

An Allclear Audio re-tipped Grado Opus 3, this has a Boron CL and MR diamond. It's only done 20 or so LP sides and it sounds fantastic, the separation is clearly audible and reminiscent of the Stanton 881s.

 

Anyone with a Grado Opus 3 that needs re-tipping this is worth additional $$.

 

This is the low output version and works with either my MM at 54dB or MC at 64dB. It's currently in the MC with 22kR loading. I found it a little too bright with 47kR.

 

That Sp10 looks awesome Warren what  arterial did you use to make the plinth. 

[Warren Jones]

@Warren M. It's similar in the CL and diamond but mine hasn't got the damping paint on the cartridge body as it was a re-tip.

[Warren Jones]

1 minute ago, buzz lightyear said:

That Sp10 looks awesome Warren what  arterial did you use to make the plinth. 

 

The plinth is Permalli. I'll PM you with the details rather than post in this thread.

[rossb]

My elderly Benz L0.4 has just been re-tipped by @cafe latte with a micro-ridge stylus in place of the original elliptical stylus, and is sounding better than ever.

 

 

[stevoz]

3 hours ago, rossb said:

My elderly Benz L0.4 has just been re-tipped by @cafe latte with a micro-ridge stylus in place of the original elliptical stylus, and is sounding better than ever.

 

.....and boron?

[rossb]

10 minutes ago, stevoz said:

 

.....and boron?

 

The original cantilever was boron, so this was not replaced.

[stevoz]

1 minute ago, rossb said:

 

The original cantilever was boron, so this was not replaced.

 

They are a match made in heaven!

[123bodge]

On 08/10/2022 at 4:55 PM, heybaroo said:

I’ve been trying out Clay Gieseler’s Phongraph for a few months now and am really liking it. Changed over from a Trigon Vanguard ii with a Volcano iii battery power supply and prefer the Gieseler. Mated to a Transrotor modified Goldring 1042…apologies for the dark photos, really dark this afternoon and my lights barely make a difference…

 

My Phongraph still continues to improve after about 150 hrs, it's a great Performer...

[Valik_t]

Hi,

I have a question regarding the MC cartridge Denon DL-103R. 

This cartridge has Output voltage0.25 mV and Output impedance14 ohms.

My Phono stage is Pro-Ject Pre Box DS 2 and it seems to me it does not have enough gain to run that MC cartridge.

With original MC cartridge I would never turn the knob on my PL amplifier more than a quarter, and now with MC cartridge I need to push this more than a half. Your recommendations are much appreciated.

Below are characteristics for Pro-Ject  DS2 phono:

Phono input specifications

MM: 47kohms/50pF; MC: 10ohms

 

[andyr]

35 minutes ago, Valik_t said:

Hi,

I have a question regarding the MC cartridge Denon DL-103R. 

This cartridge has Output voltage0.25 mV and Output impedance14 ohms.

My Phono stage is Pro-Ject Pre Box DS 2 and it seems to me it does not have enough gain to run that MC cartridge.

With original MC cartridge I would never turn the knob on my PL amplifier more than a quarter, and now with MC cartridge I need to push this more than a half. Your recommendations are much appreciated.

Below are characteristics for Pro-Ject  DS2 phono:

Phono input specifications

MM: 47kohms/50pF; MC: 10ohms

 

You didn't specify what the MC gain of your Pro-Ject DS2 is but for a 0.25mV cart, you really need 65 or 66dB (double the standard MC phono stage gain. 

 

In your case, though, your situation is made very much worse by the ridiculously low loading the DS2 offers, in MC mode.  For the DL-103R, you could do with 200 ohms - and preferably higher. 

 

Your other option is to run the DS2 in MM mode and use a 1:10 SUT or a head amp, between the cart and the DS2.  I have a 'loaner' Paris head amp you can borrow, if you'd like to try this out. 

 

Just PM me, if you're interested. 

 

[Valik_t]

Thanks Andyr for your reply. 

Unfortunately the manual for DS2 does not have this information, not sure why? But what I found from DS2 manual:

Phono input specifications:

MC: 10ohms

and below numbers are from cartridge manual:

Load impedance: 100ohms min or 40oms when using a step up transformer.

Does it mean that DS2 is not capable to run that cartridge?

Kind regards,

Valentin

[andyr]

5 minutes ago, Valik_t said:

But what I found from DS2 manual:

Phono input specifications:

MC: 10ohms

and below numbers are from cartridge manual:

Load impedance: 100ohms min or 40oms when using a step up transformer.

Does it mean that DS2 is not capable to run that cartridge?

Kind regards,

Valentin

 

Yes, in MC mode.    The 10 ohms loading which it offers is not appropriate for the DL-103R.

 

However, as I mentioned - you could use the DS2 in MM mode ... and use a SUT or head amp to increase the 0.25mV cart output by 10 or 15 times.

 

[Valik_t]

Yes, I have 2 option now:

1 - Step up transformer 1:20 preferable

2 - Get another phono stage - looking at the one below as the price is quite cheap:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/393145058934?hash=item5b89458676:g:CHQAAOSwRO1hNa0S&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8Njk429AZrfz7wNYopOYq40i041RtLc4XqViPABh7R0CLyNm1%2BZ1%2FMVRPj55Pn3WC5v5PalbkyOaLiUYlhhVzaBvXxZsa4JPYia6KrVN%2BJ7Tv72BqhAeTrVKP24X8FgEglnGZGmn62Qaoq3y5K0smXc%2BX7vhcWsU01NM5uZhDHN731veHLqgVEyxvW9QfNIiEN2m7nbAG%2BfGUs6BX55WECNAR%2FwItDHT1k%2F04UcgA4182x1FFFtN4JEa4vleO3mzRtpJUXZueKPvQACFBV0j4379pkGox9nuUZ6xZFM5063OucKsGPaGjLqhqJ1o%2BwPGJw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4bZ95TQYQ

 

[andyr]

1 minute ago, Valik_t said:

Yes, I have 2 option now:

1 - Step up transformer 1:20 preferable

2 - Get another phono stage - looking at the one below as the price is quite cheap:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/393145058934?hash=item5b89458676:g:CHQAAOSwRO1hNa0S&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8Njk429AZrfz7wNYopOYq40i041RtLc4XqViPABh7R0CLyNm1%2BZ1%2FMVRPj55Pn3WC5v5PalbkyOaLiUYlhhVzaBvXxZsa4JPYia6KrVN%2BJ7Tv72BqhAeTrVKP24X8FgEglnGZGmn62Qaoq3y5K0smXc%2BX7vhcWsU01NM5uZhDHN731veHLqgVEyxvW9QfNIiEN2m7nbAG%2BfGUs6BX55WECNAR%2FwItDHT1k%2F04UcgA4182x1FFFtN4JEa4vleO3mzRtpJUXZueKPvQACFBV0j4379pkGox9nuUZ6xZFM5063OucKsGPaGjLqhqJ1o%2BwPGJw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4bZ95TQYQ

 

 

Actually, you have 3 options  :

1.  Step up transformer (with the DS2 in MM mode).

If you use a 1:10 SUT, the output from your DL-103R becomes 2.5mV - a bit low for many MM phono stages.  So, yes, a 1:20 SUT would be better - but that means the loading seen by your cart will be only 118 ohms.  That will be a lot more suitable than the 10 ohms offered by your DS2 ... but may not be optimal for the 103R.

 

2,  A head amp - ie. an active gain stage, having 20x gain.

The advantage of using a head amp is that the loading is independent of the gain - so you can make this 118 ohms ...330 ohms ... 1200 ohms ... whatever sounds best to you!

 

3.  Get another phono stage.

Unfortunately, your link doesn't provide enough info to tell me what this one actually offers.  

 

[Richard Tremain]

5 hours ago, Valik_t said:

Yes, I have 2 option now:

1 - Step up transformer 1:20 preferable

2 - Get another phono stage - looking at the one below as the price is quite cheap:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/393145058934?hash=item5b89458676:g:CHQAAOSwRO1hNa0S&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8Njk429AZrfz7wNYopOYq40i041RtLc4XqViPABh7R0CLyNm1%2BZ1%2FMVRPj55Pn3WC5v5PalbkyOaLiUYlhhVzaBvXxZsa4JPYia6KrVN%2BJ7Tv72BqhAeTrVKP24X8FgEglnGZGmn62Qaoq3y5K0smXc%2BX7vhcWsU01NM5uZhDHN731veHLqgVEyxvW9QfNIiEN2m7nbAG%2BfGUs6BX55WECNAR%2FwItDHT1k%2F04UcgA4182x1FFFtN4JEa4vleO3mzRtpJUXZueKPvQACFBV0j4379pkGox9nuUZ6xZFM5063OucKsGPaGjLqhqJ1o%2BwPGJw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4bZ95TQYQ

 

 Phono Step up Stages are not just some simple cheap thing to get gain. They really control the sound of the cartridge and around a $1000 or at least twice the price of the average MC is the minumum you should be looking at this will give you a couple of gain settings one to suit your Dennon and another to suit the average MC with a 0.4mv output, also with about 4 impeadance load settings to optimise the Dennon and future cartridges.

[Valik_t]

Thank you for your reply 

[2Brix]

11 hours ago, Valik_t said:

Hi,

I have a question regarding the MC cartridge Denon DL-103R. 

This cartridge has Output voltage0.25 mV and Output impedance14 ohms.

My Phono stage is Pro-Ject Pre Box DS 2 and it seems to me it does not have enough gain to run that MC cartridge.

With original MC cartridge I would never turn the knob on my PL amplifier more than a quarter, and now with MC cartridge I need to push this more than a half. Your recommendations are much appreciated.

Below are characteristics for Pro-Ject  DS2 phono:

Phono input specifications

MM: 47kohms/50pF; MC: 10ohms

 

This discussion really belongs in a different (separate) thread, but it seems odd that Project would offer at fixed 10 (ten) Ohms for MC.  Whereas 100 (one hundred) Ohms is a fairly common fixed value....and of course some brands/models offer 3, 5 or more loading selections.  Perhaps @Valik_t there is a typo in the manual, or in your post, and the gain is the main issue?

 

Also i found it hard to locate the specific manual for your phonostage.  There seems to be a few similarly named Project phonostages?  Can you provide a link to your exact model?

 

And try to avoid going too cheap on a phonostage, it has to add _a lot_ of gain to the tiny output of the MC cart...and unpack / reconstitute the compressed bass and expanded treble (of the vinyl pressing) "on the fly".  A quality phonostage will work that magic with assured control.

 

 

[rossb]

The Project DS2 has adjustable loading from 10 ohms - 1000 ohms: https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/tube-box-ds2/. There will be a loading setting which suits the DL-103R,

 

It also has gain of 65db, which should be perfectly adequate for the Denon DL-103R. As a low output MC of 0.25mv, it is quite normal that you should have to turn the volume up to a higher level than you would for most other MC cartridges which typically have higher output voltages.

 

In summary, you don't need a new phono stage, an SUT or a head amp and your current phono stage will work fine, even if it requires a higher than normal volume setting.

Edited February 24, 2023 by rossb

[andyr]

4 hours ago, rossb said:

The Project DS2 has adjustable loading from 10 ohms - 1000 ohms: https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/tube-box-ds2/. There will be a loading setting which suits the DL-103R,

 

It also has gain of 65db, which should be perfectly adequate for the Denon DL-103R. As a low output MC of 0.25mv, it is quite normal that you should have to turn the volume up to a higher level than you would for most other MC cartridges which typically have higher output voltages.

 

Well done on discovering that vital information!  

 

4 hours ago, rossb said:

In summary, you don't need a new phono stage, an SUT or a head amp and your current phono stage will work fine, even if it requires a higher than normal volume setting.

 

^  ^  ^  As the man says.  (Just select a much higher loading than you have at present.)

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by andyr

[Warren M.]

20 hours ago, Valik_t said:

Hi,

I have a question regarding the MC cartridge Denon DL-103R. 

This cartridge has Output voltage0.25 mV and Output impedance14 ohms.

My Phono stage is Pro-Ject Pre Box DS 2 and it seems to me it does not have enough gain to run that MC cartridge.

With original MC cartridge I would never turn the knob on my PL amplifier more than a quarter, and now with MC cartridge I need to push this more than a half. Your recommendations are much appreciated.

Below are characteristics for Pro-Ject  DS2 phono:

Phono input specifications

MM: 47kohms/50pF; MC: 10ohms

 

You have the spec and settings ALL wrong! The output impedance of the cartridge is almost irrelevant. 

The DS2 allows input impedance of 10 Ohms to 1000 Ohms for moving coil. Denon recommends 100 Ohms for the DL-103R but I would suggest that you start at 400 Ohms (10 times the recommended SUT setting for the cartridge) and wind it back if it sounds too aggressive.

Set the DS2 to 65dB gain or 60dB if 65dB sounds strained or noisy. The 2 x 12AX7 arrangement should provide enough gain. 

[Valik_t]

Hi Warren,  I don't have phono box DS2, the one I have is Pre Box DS2 Digital - the combination of DAC, Preamplifier and MM/MC phone all in one. This unit does not have any settings that can be adjusted for Phono stage.

[Warren M.]

6 minutes ago, Valik_t said:

Hi Warren,  I don't have phono box DS2, the one I have is Pre Box DS2 Digital - the combination of DAC, Preamplifier and MM/MC phone all in one. This unit does not have any settings that can be adjusted for Phono stage.

Apologies. I misunderstood. Nevertheless, check the MC stage input impedance. It should be universally set to 100 Ohms if it can't be changed. This is a match for the 103R recommendations (though too low in my opinion)

[rossb]

Just had a look at the manual for the Pre Box DS2, which does indeed refer to a 10 ohm setting for MC cartridges as the only one available.

 

My guess is that this is a typo, and should say 100 ohms which is the usual setting for most phono stages with no loading adjustment. If so, it should still be adequate for the DL-103R. Having to turn up the volume is quite normal for a very low output MC and nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Valik_t]

I called Pro-ject Audio and they confirmed 10Ohms for MC cartridge for that unit - that is what causing the issue I believe