MQA DACs ?

[peppy]

Hi Everyone

 

Hope you all are staying safe, making the most use of the music gear you own, and wondering how and why did we reach the situation we are in today.

Anyways..

 

MQA DACs ?

Can someone please help me understand whats the benefit of such a DAC over others. My MQA encoded song library is increasing and use Audirvana.

I saw SMSL M500 , is being touted as an exceptional entry point MQA DAC for the price.

 

Currently I use, Questlye CMA 600i and RME ADI -2 DAC FS.

 

Is there really worth spending in an MQA DAC or is it more marketing than anything ?

Any other MQA DAC that I should consider ? (only for head-fi setup / listening, NO HT or speakers)

 

Thanks

Edited April 5, 2020 by peppy

[pretender]

Hello Peppy,

To me MQA sounds much better than PCM.

I don’t think you need an MQA dac to figure out if you like MQA or not. If you have a TIdal subscription, there are lots of album with PCM and MQA versions on there, which you can compare. Tidal offer the first unfolding in the MQA process so not the absolute best sound quality but good enough to have a fair idea of what it does. Good luck.

[Snoopy8]

8 hours ago, peppy said:

Is there really worth spending in an MQA DAC or is it more marketing than anything ?

There are, as always, opposing views.  From a listening perspective, MQA was no better than PCM and definitely below DSD.  You have to be careful when comparing Tidal tracks because often, SQ improvements are due to a better mastering, not due to MQA or other formats. The only valid comparison is when using the same master e.g.

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

I do not like MQA because of its stated intent of wanting to take over the digital music chain. MQA works when it is used in recording, streaming and in the DAC. It is not cheap to license and effectively locks out smaller outfits.  We, the consumers, end up paying.

 

Someone tracked the number of mentions of MQA in the Bristol Hifi show program.  It peaked 3-4 years ago and this year had zero mentions. By no means scientific, but to me, this indicates that MQA is dying...

Edited April 5, 2020 by Snoopy8
Typo

[peppy]

2 hours ago, pretender said:

Hello Peppy,

To me MQA sounds much better than PCM.

I don’t think you need an MQA dac to figure out if you like MQA or not. If you have a TIdal subscription, there are lots of album with PCM and MQA versions on there, which you can compare. Tidal offer the first unfolding in the MQA process so not the absolute best sound quality but good enough to have a fair idea of what it does. Good luck.

"Tidal offer the first unfolding in the MQA process"

 

Does this mean , MQA DACs will do the absolute unfolding ?

So how does the MQA DAC help or come in picture ?

 

I use TIDAL & have many local MQA songs, kinda like MQA over others majority of the time.

 

[peppy]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

There are, as always, opposing views.  From a listening perspective, MQA was no better than PCM and definitely below DSD.  You have to be careful when comparing Tidal tracks because often, SQ improvements are due to a better mastering, not due to MQA or other formats. The only valid comparison is when using the same master e.g.

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

I do not like MQA because of its stated intent of wanting to take over the digital music chain. MQA works when it is used in recording, streaming and in the DAC. It is not cheap to license and effectively locks out smaller outfits.  We, the consumers, end up paying.

 

Someone tracked the number of mentions of MQA in the Bristol Hifi show program.  It peaked 3-4 years ago and this year had zero mentions. By no means scientific, but to me, this indicates that MQA is dying...

heard a lot about DSDs but cant find a place to download DSD songs or a music service that offers them.

In addition to that DSD seems to have enormous file size. Going down that path means, factoring in lots n lots n lots of storage capacity.

But again, where to find DSD ?

 

"Someone tracked the number of mentions of MQA in the Bristol Hifi show program.  It peaked 3-4 years ago and this year had zero mentions. By no means scientific, but to me, this indicates that MQA is dying..."

Very interesting info...Thanks

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by peppy

[blybo]

9 hours ago, peppy said:

Is there really worth spending in an MQA DAC or is it more marketing than anything ?

Any other MQA DAC that I should consider ? (only for head-fi setup / listening, NO HT or speakers)

 I won't get into the MQA debate however a cheap way to get into it is via a Dragonfly headphone amp/dac. Just choose a colour to meet your budget. Would bring portability to your headphone rig too.

[blakey72]

I find that the original mastering means more than the format. For example a bad MQA mastering will not sound as good as a very good HiFi/FLAC mastering. I too listen to a lot of MQA on Tidal through a non-MQA DAC (Topping D10) and think it's a hit and miss affair. Yes I plan on getting an MQA DAC just for experiment purposes really. Just to have a play so I won't be spending much. I thought about the Pro-ject Pre Box S2.

[blybo]

11 minutes ago, blakey72 said:

I find that the original mastering means more than the format. For example a bad MQA mastering will not sound as good as a very good HiFi/FLAC mastering

IIRC MQA stated that obtaining the very best masters available was a vital piece in the puzzle.

 

My Moon Neo ACE is MQA capable and it does sound excellent, but I haven't done many back to back comparisons. Sample rates and bit depth don't really matter to me as long as what I'm hearing pleases me.

[Snoopy8]

56 minutes ago, peppy said:

heard a lot about DSDs but cant find a place to download DSD songs or a music service that offers them.

In addition to that DSD seems to have enormous file size. Going down that path means, factoring in lots n lots n lots of storage capacity.

But again, where to find DSD ?

I am not suggesting DSD either. It is niche and expensive. And most non classical DSD are old favourite albums, often need to be ripped from SACDs.

 

Suggest staying with PCM/Flac.

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, peppy said:

"Someone tracked the number of mentions of MQA in the Bristol Hifi show program.  It peaked 3-4 years ago and this year had zero mentions. By no means scientific, but to me, this indicates that MQA is dying..."

Very interesting info...Thanks

 

[BugPowderDust]

If you're curious as to how MQA works, this is a good reference: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa 

 

The important bit: 

Quote

The MQA encoder shown in Fig. 7A accepts a 96 kHz 24-bit input. This 24-bit input is immediately reduced to 17 bits using noise shaped dither (this is a lossy dithered quantization process that adds some noise above 20 kHz). The remaining 17 bits are split into high and low-frequency channels. The split signal is transmitted through a lossy compression system that is augmented by a compressed touch-up channel. If the touch-up channel does not overload, the 17-bit transmission is lossless if decoded as shown in Fig. 7B. But, if the touch-up channel reaches its maximum capability, the system begins to be a lossy 17-bit system. After decoding, a lossless or nearly lossless version of the 17 bit signal is recovered.

MQA IS NOT LOSSLESS

Note that the original 24-bit signal is never recovered. MQA does not losslessly preserve the original 24-bit signal. For this reason MQA is not truly a lossless system. At best, the MQA system losslessly conveys 17-bits at 96 kHz. 

 

 

[pretender]

On 06/04/2020 at 9:09 AM, peppy said:

"Tidal offer the first unfolding in the MQA process"

 

Does this mean , MQA DACs will do the absolute unfolding ?

So how does the MQA DAC help or come in picture ?

 

I use TIDAL & have many local MQA songs, kinda like MQA over others majority of the time.

 

This is correct MQA DACs will do the absolute unfolding, which definitively makes a difference. I use a Project S2 dac and it works perfectly. As for the old argument that MQA versions of old albums sound better because there has been a remastering, it does not hold with all the recent releases. About a third of new albums on Tidal are MQA and most of them offer the corresponding PCM version, both coming from the same master.  I spent the time to compare PCM, MQA and DSD on the website http://www.2l.no/hires/ which gives files at all format and resolution from the same master.  I liked DSD better than PCM and MQA better than DSD.

There are lots of people who don't like MQA for political reasons (DRM etc) or for conceptual reasons (it is not lossless;  it loses bits of SNR...). There are pages of blah blah discussion on computeraudiophile of people who decide just based on "rationality only" whether things are good or not (which is the worse possible thing to do in audio). They don't listen to music anymore and jut watch a spectrum analyser in real time instead.

In the end just trust your ears and ignore the background noise!

Edited June 20, 2020 by pretender

[I'mInterested]

I found the super simple flow diagram (via link below) on what you get through the Tidal software unfolding and then what you get through a second hardware unfolding very helpful...

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained

[ollie_08]

+1 For the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2

 

Review here

 

 https://www.stereophile.com/content/pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital-da-headphone-amplifier

 

 

[pretender]

Peppy, do you run Tidal on a computer or a smart Phone  to listen to your music? If you use the computer interface, make sure that you select Exclusive mode and disable Passthrough MQA in the settings to achieve the first unfold.

The SMSL M500 looks very interesting indeed. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by pretender

[peppy]

20 minutes ago, I'mInterested said:

I found the super simple flow diagram (via link below) on what you get through the Tidal software unfolding and then what you get through a second hardware unfolding very helpful...

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained

This is amazing thanks 

[peppy]

18 minutes ago, pretender said:

Peppy, do you run Tidal on a computer or a smart Phone  to listen to your music? If you use the computer interface, make sure that you select Exclusive mode and disable Passthrough MQA in the settings to achieve the first unfold.

The SMSL M500 looks very interesting indeed. 

Tidal on computer  YES

Exclusive Mode  YES

 

Was contemplating whether on not to purchase MQL DAC

looking at ur and others replies, I will go for one...

Now the question is, which one to buy.

 

Already have RME ADI 2 & Questyle

Needs to compliment  and can’t go on spending thousands

 

[pretender]

DAC wise their are not too many options for MQA dacs in the sub thousand dollar range: Dragonfly, Ifi nano, micro and Xdsd, Project S2 and SMSL M500. I might be missing a few if anyone knows more. 

[08Boss302]

Not sure how you currently stream Tidal but if you're looking to hook something into your amp directly don't forget or overlook the Bluesound Node 2i. 

It runs compatabile MQA DAC, has a menu system which you can use on a pc, phone /tablet etc.  It also has an option to bypass its DAC if you choose to do so.  The DAC is a Burr Brown DAC and is very good.

 

I have the Bluesound Node 2i and rate it highlly, as it allows me to use for Tidal, Spotify, iheart Radio etc all from one menu.  I did however come to the decision MQA wasn't essential for me so now use the bluesound but bypass its DAC to a Denafrips Ares II and to my Oppo 205.  Not through any disappointment of the Burr Brown but just through choice. I looked at the RME also, but decided on the Denafrips.  You could buy the Bluesound and run its DAC and or use the RME as an A/B variable which would be nice to have.

Even now if I run or Tidal playlist throws up a Tidal MQA track it plays through my Denafrips at 24/96, this is shown on the front of the DAC.

 

Left of field option, if you need a phone check out the LG v30+ which has quad DAC and utilises Sabre chips (see Darko's review) that decodes MQA.  I  have one and you easily hook it up to your amp and also with headphones as a DAP if you want.

 

Good luck with your journey.  Plenty of options.

 

[wolster]

3 hours ago, peppy said:

This is amazing thanks 

+1

From @I'mInterested

I found the super simple flow diagram (via link below) on what you get through the Tidal software unfolding and then what you get through a second hardware unfolding very helpful...

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

28 minutes ago, wolster said:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained

Great easy to understand link. I'm no expert but I remember reading the jump from 16-24 bit offers the greatest increase in quality, 48khz - 192khz has less impact, but I could be way off the mark too.

 

If it is fact then we can all move on without needing MQA Dac's and get the majority of the improvements anyway.

 

[peppy]

I purchased SMSL M500 from AmazonAU.

Lets see if I can hear a difference between MQA tracks via

 

RME ADI2 DAC v/s SMSL M500

Will let everyone here know my experience.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by peppy

[Aaron.]

5 hours ago, peppy said:

I purchased SMSL M500 from AmazonAU.

Lets see if I can hear a difference between MQA tracks via

 

RME ADI2 DAC v/s SMSL M500

Will let everyone here know my experience.

 

Keen to hear your opinions ! 

[pretender]

On 19/04/2020 at 9:56 PM, peppy said:

I purchased SMSL M500 from AmazonAU.

Lets see if I can hear a difference between MQA tracks via

 

RME ADI2 DAC v/s SMSL M500

Will let everyone here know my experience.

 

I don't think one has to purchase an MQA dac to enjoy MQA. The second unfold makes a difference but still the software decoding from TIDAL is already good with non MQA dacs. The SMSL M500 with its 9038PRO dac should be good. I guess the RME might be a better dac for pure PCM whereas the SMSL might have a better chance with MQA. 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by pretender

[pretender]

Hello Peppy,

Can you share some of your experience with MQA to find out if you liked it or not with the SMSL dac?

Cheers

Laurent