Wimbo Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Warren Jones said: Any resonance in the tonearm (or any other part of the system) will be modulated to the audio signal. Yeah, its not hard is it. Good post. Although I will fight till my dieing day that the Turntable is the most important I've been using my 881S for the last 6 months. It just gets better and better in my rig.
soundfan Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Warren Jones said: Ok I'll add my 2c I didn't bother watching the video, but I'm not in the cartridge is the most important, yes you can get an improvement by changing the cartridge. But the cartridge will only perform as well as the arm allows. I'm in the tonearm as THE most important component, then the table and phono stage. I have a Technics SP10 and EPA100. The EPA100 has VTA on the fly and dynamic damping to adjust it to the cartridges compliance. With a Stanton 881s installed it smashed my Rega RP8/Apheta2 and LinnLP12/Ittok/Troika. I changed the arm to a linear with very short stiff carriage and the sound improved significantly. Bass was improved as was detail. The reason is the linear arm with its 55mm pivot to stylus and extremely stiff carriage has a main bending mode close to 20kHz. This puts all the tonearm resonance out of the audio band. https://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/70-tests/104-arm-tests.html Any resonance in the tonearm (or any other part of the system) will be modulated to the audio signal. I agree with you, mostly. Tonearm, then table, but I would then put the cart before the phono stage. The cartridge MUST suit the arm carrying it to extract it's best. I don't think the recording should even be discussed; it's a given imo that a record, no matter how great the pressing is, will sound shite (or at least nowhere near its capability to sound good) on a crap table. Edited April 29, 2020 by soundfan
betty boop Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 what comes first chicken or egg cna argue till cows come home anymore farm reference ? dont pull all your eggs in one basket ? seriously i probably broke all rules with top end cart and phone stage on a mid level deck and arm. heck it sounded great... and even better when replaced the deck .... start which ever end you want id say am sure especially given the widely varying different carts/arms/tables/phono stages each are going to have different contribution to things and like different end results in different combos on any case. am sure we woudl like one path ... but suspect many roads lead to rome .... oh and ps dont forget what deck sits on... mine hangs off the wall !
Steve M Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) I’m not a complete turntable nut and prefer to use computer audio and CD player for convenience and good sound. The theoretical best tt rig that I have owned probably only adds up to about $25K in real world terms. That rig being a nice late model black Linn Sondek LP12 with Moses power supply+Ekos or SME V tonearm $7K each+ choice of Troika/Lyra/Transfiguration/Zyx Airy 1000 nude cryogenic (cartridges individually up to about $5K RRP each). Anyway like a previous poster, the ‘Linn+fancy tonearm’ journey ended for me when I made direct comparisons with a nicely set-up Technics SP10 Mk II deck + EPA100 arm with the above mentioned MC cartridges. The SP10 was just more accurate, pitch perfect stable and super detailed. I have it sounding very musical too, and almost all audiophile visitors to my home prefer the vinyl set-up over my other sources. I still own and use the SP10, now with three good but not too expensive arms, and interchange between seven nice MC & MM cartridges, as shown below. The upshot of all this is that I can swap around the cartridges on that deck and multiple arms and each time I can hear a clear difference or improvement when the cartridge is changed. Whereas, the difference in changing tonearms and decks is less noticeable (have also owned Roksan Xerxes, Luxman PD444, Project Perspective, Transcriptor and Denon DP59-L decks). Similarly in my experience, a change in phono stage produces a greater difference in sound quality than the deck or tone arm. I have used or heard in house very good phono stages from Tom Evans, Accuphase, Luxman, Emia and the very nice valve unit from Duc in Melbourne (RIP). I currently use the excellent custom MC phono stage in my Supratek Grange 300B DHT preamplifier. This leads me to conclude that Cartridge or Phono stage first, with deck and tonearm second ...so long as the latter two spin and work accurately without speed fluctuation or resonances. Regards, Steve. Edited April 29, 2020 by Steve M 7
Wimbo Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 9 hours ago, Steve M said: so long as the latter two spin and work accurately without speed fluctuation or resonances. lol
MrRogers Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 https://www.originlive.com/faq-items/best-tonearms/
MrRogers Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/armdesign_e.html
t_mike Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 On 28/04/2020 at 1:48 PM, awty said: I couldnt even bother turning the sound on, anyone who puts their turntables on a glass bench or a wooden floor isnt worth listening to. Unless the glass bench has a layer of polyurethane under to absorb vibration. I'm talking physically attached over the full surface, not just blocks. 1
Steve M Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 (edited) On 30/04/2020 at 8:03 AM, Wimbo said: lol I get the sarcasm of your lol, but my point is there are plenty of low-moderately priced turntables that do the job well of spinning accurately and without resonance, certainly enough to get the job done to about 95% effectiveness. For example, Technics SP10 & SL1200, the big Denon decks like the DP-59L, humble Rega decks and arms, Pioneer PL70 & PL1000, Yamaha PF800, most of the older Luxman, Sony and Thorens models etc. In my experience, changing the cartridge or phono stage on any deck makes more of a sonic difference than mucking around with tone arms and uber decks. I drank the Linn (spin) and cool aid once and pursued various mods, $7K Ekos and SME V tonearms etc ...but soon spat it out because it didn’t align with what my ears told me. Steve. Edited May 3, 2020 by Steve M 6 1
cheekyboy Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steve M said: I get the sarcasm of your lol, but my point is there are plenty of low-moderately priced turntables that do the job well of spinning accurately and without resonance, certainly enough to get the job done to about 95% effectiveness. For example, Technics SP10 & SL1200, the big Denon decks like the DP-59L, humble Rega decks and arms, Pioneer PL70 & PL1000, Yamaha PF800, most of the older Luxman, Sony and Thorens models etc. In my experience, changing the cartridge or phono stage on any deck makes more of a sonic difference than mucking around with tone arms and uber decks. I drank the Linn (spin) and cool aid once and pursued various mods, $7K Ekos and SME V tonearms etc ...but soon spat it out because it didn’t align with what my ears told me. Steve. Hello Steve, I did make the same point in a couple of posts here in this thread with regard to turntables and I emphasised the point that you could chase that last 5% or so if you wanted to, but that it would cost you to do so. I think the same case can be made for phono preamps as well and there are many good phono preamps sub $2k that will get you 95% of the way there or better in terms of performance. I have found the biggest swings in performance have come from changing cartridges or tonearms, with those other three components remaining constant. Cheers, Keith Edited May 3, 2020 by cheekyboy
Gale Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 I would have thought that 100% of the music comes from the cartridge, that is what reads the groove after all. The rest is incedental. Unless the tone arm is a tangential tracking device, your wasting your time.
Chill3 Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 4 hours ago, cheekyboy said: Hello Steve, I did make the same point in a couple of posts here in this thread with regard to turntables and I emphasised the point that you could chase that last 5% or so if you wanted to, but that it would cost you to do so. I think the same case can be made for phono preamps as well and there are many good phono preamps sub $2k that will get you 95% of the way there or better in terms of performance. I have found the biggest swings in performance have come from changing cartridges or tonearms, with those other three components remaining constant. Cheers, Keith 100% every product has a sweet spot price wise v performance
Warren Jones Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 52 minutes ago, Gale said: I would have thought that 100% of the music comes from the cartridge, that is what reads the groove after all. The rest is incedental. Unless the tone arm is a tangential tracking device, your wasting your time. This is a very common misconception. So let me explain. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration transducer and ideally needs to be held absolutely rigid to enable it reproduce the groove modulation. This is impossible as the tonearm needs to traverse the LP and warps. Tonearms have resonance which is directly proportional to their length. So what makes a good tonearm is how the designer attenuates these resonances. So put a cheap cartridge say an AT95e in a very good tonearm which controls its resonance and the cartridge is able to perform at its best. Then put a $5000 cartridge in a cheap tonearm and the arm will colour the cartridge with resonance so the cartridge can not perform at its best. I have a DIY linear tracker and it's the best tonearm I have heard and this is primarily because the arm is very short and stiff which pushes the resonance above the audio band. Nothing to do with tracking error as the linear arm still has tracking error. 2
cheekyboy Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Chill3 said: 100% every product has a sweet spot price wise v performance True. Cheers, Keith Edited May 3, 2020 by cheekyboy 1
andyr Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Gale said: I would have thought that 100% of the music comes from the cartridge, that is what reads the groove after all. The rest is incidental. Unless the tone arm is a tangential tracking device, you're wasting your time. Mmmm - I can't work out whether you have NFI ... or are just being disingenuous. Andy 3 1
Wimbo Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Steve M said: I get the sarcasm of your lol, but my point is there are plenty of low-moderately priced turntables that do the job well of spinning accurately and without resonance, certainly enough to get the job done to about 95% effectiveness. For example, Technics SP10 & SL1200, the big Denon decks like the DP-59L, humble Rega decks and arms, Pioneer PL70 & PL1000, Yamaha PF800, most of the older Luxman, Sony and Thorens models etc. In my experience, changing the cartridge or phono stage on any deck makes more of a sonic difference than mucking around with tone arms and uber decks. I drank the Linn (spin) and cool aid once and pursued various mods, $7K Ekos and SME V tonearms etc ...but soon spat it out because it didn’t align with what my ears told me. Steve. Cut it out mate. You put the onus on the Turntable once again in your last reply. That was what the "Lol" was for. You contradict yourself. Do you think I havent heard these turntables? You mean, spending around a $1000 for a second hand turntable and arm is all you need to spend to mount a $2000 Cartridge? Why would you even do that? Your putting SP10's and "Humble Rega decks in the same category as well. You have had all these turntables and you prefer digital. Good for you. You obviously don't like Linn and make it quite clear on this forum. Thats your opinion and this statement is my opinion.
Steve M Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 No need to get upset, agree it’s all just opinion and hyperbole. I just reckon cartridges and phono stages are easily heard, tonearms and how a deck spins - less so, that’s all. Cheers, Steve. 2
betty boop Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 hmm... all shows to me there are no across the board hard fast rules here my own experience fitting a $2k cart to a mid level rega deck and using a phono stage some multiples in price more .... I certainly experienced some significant gains ..... and then going from the mid range rega deck ( probably some more humbly priced ones around ) to a their top end deck I certainly experienced quite a step up again.... ie in this case same cart and phono stage...just stepping up in deck and arm... many roads .....
Addicted to music Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, betty boop said: hmm... all shows to me there are no across the board hard fast rules here my own experience fitting a $2k cart to a mid level rega deck and using a phono stage some multiples in price more .... I certainly experienced some significant gains ..... and then going from the mid range rega deck ( probably some more humbly priced ones around ) to a their top end deck I certainly experienced quite a step up again.... ie in this case same cart and phono stage...just stepping up in deck and arm... many roads ..... there are many roads to take in the analog journey, too many. I can’t fixate on $1000s when someone here made his own and used a motor control that’s 2nd to none.... The Linn journey is certainly interesting and wasn’t much up against it in competition back in the 80s apart from the SOTA Sapphire.... The Japanese golden era of Hifi use to do direct drives, as motor and environmental isolation were for the British and the American audiophile mega dollar brands.. Now you can spend $100,000 and above on a deck.... wow so much for vinyl that’s now using digital files to produce.... makes me wonder on the trend that’s happening with that black disc. 1
muon* Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 (edited) I said the cart/phono earlier, but it's everything that contributes, It's kind of meaningless to me to place things in an order. For myself if I do a TT front end again I want a great table, great arm, a great cart and phono stage all components compatible with the rest of the 'analogue system'. Edited May 3, 2020 by muon* typo 1
MattyW Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 On 28/04/2020 at 12:37 PM, muon* said: Cartridge and phono stage, could be argued the phono stage more so. Edit: IMO I'm in complete agreement in this. An end game phono stage can lift the performance of a cart, or expose its flaws. 1
EV Cali Posted May 3, 2020 Author Posted May 3, 2020 IMHO, given that we are talking about a reasonable TT and not a Crosley suitcase TT, the cart / stylus, is probably responsible for 75% of the quality of the sound and is the first thing to be up graded to gain improvements. I am still interested in comments relating to why all of the height adjustment of the arm is up, on a Technics SL1200 when fitted with a Shure M447, a standard DJ cart ,that I would assumed the TT was designed for. Are there any common carts that are higher than this that would need the arm higher. With this cart fitted I need the arm at the lowest point and the original mat plus a 6mm thick mat to get it level. Perhaps I should have started two separate threads.
Wimbo Posted May 3, 2020 Posted May 3, 2020 10 hours ago, Steve M said: No need to get upset, agree it’s all just opinion and hyperbole. I just reckon cartridges and phono stages are easily heard, tonearms and how a deck spins - less so, that’s all. Cheers, Steve. Not upset and not sarcastic. C'est la vie.
Bisguittin Posted May 5, 2020 Posted May 5, 2020 In my listening career I have been at various times UTTERLY convinced of the primacy of respectively every one of the elements of the chain being discussed here. As at May 2020 I am UTTERLY certain that I don't know. 2
Grimmie Posted May 29, 2020 Posted May 29, 2020 (edited) On 05/05/2020 at 7:42 PM, Bisguittin said: In my listening career I have been at various times UTTERLY convinced of the primacy of respectively every one of the elements of the chain being discussed here. As at May 2020 I am UTTERLY certain that I don't know. Love this ^^ After long and fraught selection and decision making process I have a reasonable rig that I am happy(ish) with. I don't have the cash or tame missus so that I can afford to experiment with the vast array of gear mentioned above nor the access via like-minded pals to swap in and out equipment, so for me (maybe) ignorance is bliss. From my relatively inexperienced viewpoint and applying a little commonsense I would say the cart MUST be responsible for the largest slice of influence (not brave enough to put a percentage on it), followed by the phono but very close to the deck and arm. Surely though all of the aforementioned must also rely on these units all matching and 'gelling' to perform at their optimum, indeed to not hinder and obstruct each other in the whole process. Who the hell has the time, knowledge, experience and objectivity to assess all of this huge multiplicity of combinations to give a definitive verdict, especially when you add cabling, racking, isolation, pre-amping, - hell what a Rubix Cube of a puzzle. With the incredible complexity of vinyl reproduction you'd have to be headstrong or a bullshyte artist or opinionated or Solomon himself to declare the judgement. But then- isn't that what the internet is for? Previous: (70's) Garrard SP25 + Shure? cart, (90's)Ariston Q deck + ?, (00's)Lenco GL75/Jelco SA750D + Shure V15IV - Gra Slee Communicator GS2, (10's) Notts Analogue Hyperspace / Spaceace + Ortophon 2M Black to Vincent Pho-701. Would love to hear others opinions as to the symmetry in this combo. Edited May 29, 2020 by Grimmie 2
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