Guest niterida Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) meh - my first full lap in a slow underpowered RWD car - top speed of 210kmh compared to closer to 250 for the Golf. and thats me compared to a professional driver. Not that impressed TBH. Edited April 28, 2020 by niterida
ArthurDent Posted April 28, 2020 Author Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, niterida said: meh - my first full lap in a slow underpowered RWD car - top speed of 210kmh compared to closer to 250 for the Golf. and thats me compared to a professional driver. Not that impressed TBH. Well I'm certainly impressed with your 8:44 in a slow underpowered RWD car. As for the Golf I think the topic subject sums it up and even though for a FWD 2 litre 4 cylinder car it's faster than a RWD 5 litre V8 Mustang GT around the track, where's the driver enjoyment. Even the last third of the track, the fast bit as you well know, just looked boring. Edited April 28, 2020 by ArthurDent
Guest niterida Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 I said it here before that I had a Renault Megane RS225 Cup and that was at the time the best FWD car you could buy. I only had it for 3 months because it was just so dull and boring. The ONLY reason performance FWD cars exist is because the big car makers only make FWD small/medium cars and therefore have no choice but to make their performance cars FWD.
DRC Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 I owned an Alfa 156 GTA for about 12 years. 185 kw (std) FWD 3.2 V6. Every time you got in that car and turned the ignition key it was an exciting and involving drive. The exhaust note was just gorgeous and chassis balance exceptional. 2
rantan Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 23 minutes ago, niterida said: I said it here before that I had a Renault Megane RS225 Cup and that was at the time the best FWD car you could buy. I only had it for 3 months because it was just so dull and boring. In your opinion. 1 1
ArthurDent Posted April 28, 2020 Author Posted April 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, DRC said: I owned an Alfa 156 GTA for about 12 years. 185 kw (std) FWD 3.2 V6. Every time you got in that car and turned the ignition key it was an exciting and involving drive. The exhaust note was just gorgeous and chassis balance exceptional. I've never owned an Alfa but I did come close to buying a 70's 1750 GTV. Got into Fords instead. Bit of a toss up as to which had the worst rust issues.
Guest niterida Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, DRC said: I owned an Alfa 156 GTA for about 12 years. 185 kw (std) FWD 3.2 V6. Every time you got in that car and turned the ignition key it was an exciting and involving drive. The exhaust note was just gorgeous and chassis balance exceptional. Exhaust has nothing to do with FWD And chassis balance with a big lump of V6 hanging over the front wheels - I don't think so. And when you say exciting I take it that you mean it tried to kill you every time you tried to go around a corner with any sort of speed. Edited April 28, 2020 by niterida
Guest niterida Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 2 hours ago, rantan said: In your opinion. Yep and my opinion is based on years of driving fast cars and road racing motorcycles so I think I know what I am talking about.
nonsynchro Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 Driving a Maxima down a windy gravel road is not slow and boring. If she were AWD it would be
Martykt Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 30 minutes ago, niterida said: Yep and my opinion is based on years of driving fast cars and road racing motorcycles so I think I know what I am talking about. A history of driving fast RWD cars and motorcycles makes you an expert in FWD chassis dynamics? 1 1
Guest niterida Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Martykt said: A history of driving fast RWD cars and motorcycles makes you an expert in FWD chassis dynamics? No - it makes me an expert in determining what is fun and exciting and what is dull and boring - I never said anything about chassis dynamics or whether it handled, steered or braked well when referring to my original post about the Megane. Of which it did all of those things and was reasonably fast. But it was so uninvolving and boring which is why I went back to my AWD Subies and RWD BMWs. The missus drives an old 120d and it is so much more exciting and more of a drivers car than the Megane ever was.
Martykt Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 17 minutes ago, nonsynchro said: Driving a Maxima down a windy gravel road is not slow and boring. If she were AWD it would be The Maxima's were very much sleepers, would beat the equivalent 6 cylinder Commodore or Falcon off the line quite easily. They never knew what hit them !! 1
metal beat Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Martykt said: The Maxima's were very much sleepers, would beat the equivalent 6 cylinder Commodore or Falcon off the line quite easily. They never knew what hit them !! Great cars. I owned 2 of them. They were fast and the 6 cylinder engine purred like a big cat. Then went GTI for 5 years and recently bought a 7.5 R. Very happy now being a daily peak hour driver and boi racer when I want to. Edited April 29, 2020 by metal beat 3
RockandorRoll Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 10 hours ago, Martykt said: The Maxima's were very much sleepers, would beat the equivalent 6 cylinder Commodore or Falcon off the line quite easily. They never knew what hit them !! One of the first cars I owned, the poor blokes in the Aussie equivalents hated it! Torque steer for days and handled like a slug. But great for country roads and the stop light grandprix. Mine even had a TV in it! 1
alistairm Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 This thread title is likely to be provoke some strong reactions! As with most generalisations, I think that describing FWD cars as "slow" or "boring" en masse is innacurate. FWD is just a different flavour and they drive differently. Whether you prefer one over the other is just that... a matter of preference. I have an early 2000s Renault Clio that I race in Lemons with a bunch of mates. It has an LSD installed, which obviously makes a huge difference, but other than that and some suspension it is all standard running gear. It is nimble and predictable and we have an absolute hoot throwing it around Wakefield Park every year. It's just a great little car for that type of event, where track density is super high, you often can't take the racing line because there are several other cars on the same bit of track and you regularly need to make adjustment and sometimes "chuck it" into or out of a line to avoid a collission. For that event, the natural tendency of the FWD (due to all that inertia being at the front) to stay relatively straight when you chuck it and oversteer rather than understeer so you can grab the inside line works brilliantly and it is much easier to control when the back wheels go than an equivilent RWD setup would be. For most city driving FWD offers plenty of advantages and usually better traction under normal driving conditions, on bad road surfaces, in the rain and so on. In most circumstances it is also easier to recover from a loss of traction in a FWD than a RWD. I'd have my kids in a FWD instead of a RWD without question if I was making that choice. For "spirited" driving I personanly prefer a RWD layout. If I had my druthers I'd also take the engine mid or rear mounted. But that doesn't mean FWD can't be fun. To be honest, the problem with most modern cars is that you can't really flog them around on the road without breaking the speed limit anyway, so you're more likely to have fun wringing the neck on an underpowered car anyway. And driving fast on a racetrack is completely different to driving on the road too... at the end of the day the driver will have more influence on the lap time than the drivetrain layout... there's a reasons why most motorsport is full of rich, white men.... you need money and spare time to pay for driver training and fast cars! Anyway, I've had plenty of fun in all of FWD, RWD and AWD cars. I hope there are many more fun days in front of me! 10 1
blybo Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, niterida said: No - it makes me an expert in determining what is fun and exciting and what is dull and boring to you... Wife owned a Mk6 GTI and it was great fun, except for obvious lack of traction at take off. Once up and going it was fantasic and I could easily drive it faster than my VF Series II V8 Redline. The Commodore was a great long distance cruiser and family car, but a terrible performance car IMHO. It did sound nice though . Unfortunately there aren't many affordable RWD performance cars. The 1's that are are affordable are under powered. My personal preference is for AWD, probably because the first seriously quick and fun car I owned was a Lancer GSR. I've since owned a WRX, LIberty Spec B and now the wife has a Audi S3 which I get to steal occasionally. I'm now driving the "tow" vehicle SUV. Edited April 28, 2020 by blybo
betty boop Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 I've owned more FWD cars than any other types... and the achilles heel of FWD is traction - putting power down(this is just physics as you spool up the car wants to lift the front end - pushing back end down).... and that you put all your eggs in the one basket ...steering, drive and good bit of braking ... in your front wheels. owning a couple of modern FWD hot hatches I realised the FWD aspect was THE biggest deficiency. struggled with traction. on the counter ... as per alistairs point above if you go other extreme... which i did for some years in a micro car... fiat 500... under powered FWD light... these can be a lot of fun... biggest thing... because they are so light and small is ***chuckable*** and yep can wring its neck ... well have to and can be a lot of fun with even a small engine keep on boil and backed up with good handling, direct steering, brakes and grip to be honest found a lot more fun than hot hatches owned prior.... this little fiat 500 was an absolute hoot though the hills ! certainly wouldnt win any 0-100 race and couldn't care less what like on a race track as not where i drive. where FWD cars fall down though is when trying to pump a lot of power in the front wheels... and there is limit where RWD and AWD swings in with their larger capacity to put power down and not relying on everything through the fronts. and yes the thread title is clearly aiming to be click bait and provocative.
RockandorRoll Posted April 28, 2020 Posted April 28, 2020 The MK6 GTI is 10 years newer than the Megane 225, so I think a lot of things have improved in that time. The MKV was the first 'sporty' FWD car I had and it was a world above the commodores I was used to driving. Then I drove a Clio, and that blew the GTI away. The biggest difference was weight, I don't care so much about FWD or RWD, just give me something around 1200kgs My Volvo is 1600kgs and is fun enough for a commuter car. But RWD wont help the feel of throwing its fat arse through a corner. It would just feel like a Commodore again. The Volvo feels much better than the Commodore through twisty roads.
Guest niterida Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, RockandorRoll said: The MK6 GTI is 10 years newer than the Megane 225, so I think a lot of things have improved in that time. The MKV was the first 'sporty' FWD car I had and it was a world above the commodores I was used to driving. Then I drove a Clio, and that blew the GTI away. The biggest difference was weight, I don't care so much about FWD or RWD, just give me something around 1200kgs My Volvo is 1600kgs and is fun enough for a commuter car. But RWD wont help the feel of throwing its fat arse through a corner. It would just feel like a Commodore again. The Volvo feels much better than the Commodore through twisty roads. Yes weight is the modern killer to all cars - give me a sub-1000kg car anyday. 35 minutes ago, betty boop said: I've owned more FWD cars than any... and the achilles heel of FWD is traction - putting power down(this is just physics as you spool up the car wants to lift the front end - pushing back end down).... and that you put all your eggs in the one basket ...steering, drive and good bit of braking ... in your front wheels. owning a couple of modern FWD hot hatches I realised the FWD aspect was THE biggest deficiency. struggled with traction. on the counter ... as per alistairs point above if you go other extreme... which i did for some years in a micro car... fiat 500... under powered FWD light... these can be a lot of fun... biggest thing... because they are so light and small is ***chuckable*** and yep can wring its neck ... well have to and can be a lot of fun with even a small engine keep on boil and backed up with good handling, direct steering, brakes and grip to be honest found a lot more fun than hot hatches owned prior.... this little fiat 500 was an absolute hoot though the hills ! certainly wouldnt win any 0-100 race and couldn't care less what like on a race track as not where i drive. where FWD cars fall down though is when trying to pump a lot of power in the front wheels... and there is limit where RWD and AWD swings in with their larger capacity to put power down and not relying on everything through the fronts. I have an engineering 'mind' and I like things that are 'right'. What they have done is take a flawed (in terms of physics for driving dynamics - not packaging or cost etc) concept (FWD) and hone it until it is somewhat better than it has any right to be. This is also the reason why I do not like 911's - rear engined shouldn't work as good as it does but they have been trying to make it better for over 50years. Both concepts would have saved a lot of time effort and money if they had just gone to RWD or mid-engined - imagine how much better both those would have been with the same amount of engineering and packaging progress in the last 50yrs. I mean how quickly did Porsche get the Boxster and Cayman handling and 'driving' better than the 911 - the only reason the Cayman isn't the best sports car in the world (it probably actually is) is because Porsche can't admit to being wrong for 50yrs and throwing out all their 'heritage'. Its differen for FWD manufacturers - the only reasonthey don't switch to RWD or AWD is cost and that consumers don't care. 35 minutes ago, betty boop said: and yes the thread title is clearly aiming to be click bait and provocative. Really - I hadn't noticed ?? Edited April 29, 2020 by niterida
ArthurDent Posted April 29, 2020 Author Posted April 29, 2020 28 minutes ago, niterida said: Its differen for FWD manufacturers - the only reasonthey don't switch to RWD or AWD is cost and that consumers don't care. Surely you're aware that many FWD cars are also offered in AWD guise. For an additional cost obviously which I'm sure the consumers care about and take into consideration before making their choice. Watched the clip yet?
tesla13BMW Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 Well I read FWD but my brain said Ford Little wonder given the HSV VT clubsport and VY SS crewman in the drive - I don't say the F word out loud- But, at least you can still buy them
metal beat Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 21 minutes ago, tesla13BMW said: Well I read FWD but my brain said Ford Little wonder given the HSV VT clubsport and VY SS crewman in the drive - I don't say the F word out loud- But, at least you can still buy them but, for how much longer? 1
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