astonmartinv8 Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 Hi, I've got a PS Audio Directstream with Bridge 2 running straight into a pair of Bryston 7B SST's and B&W 802 diamonds. I've been thinking about a preamp (looking at PS Audio BHK Signature), and of course their literature tells me how much more musical everything is with it (bringing out the magic that the $9500 DAC forgot to ). Anyone got a similar setup? Thoughts on getting a preamp and any recommendations for me to try? Thanks in advance, Marcus.
todagt Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 Pretty similar setup to you, tho I grabbed a Bryston BP26 pre to match my Bryston Power amp. And yes, I am in the 'A pre amp sounds better' camp
Steam Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) Which feature do you use more than any other on your system = volume control. So makes sense to get it right. on the other hand If you don’t need switching between inputs (extra outputs, tone controls etc) it’s a lot of cash for something you don’t need. You could spend the extra on better power amp or speakers. Edited June 6, 2020 by Steam
Guest Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 Was in the "best preamp is no preamp" camp for a long time but got converted by tube preamps. Suggest looking at Primaluna EVO 300 or 400.
Fitzroyalty Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 @astonmartinv8 I literally just posted about my preamp experience, using an older ps audio DAC compared to yours. It's the post after this one....
Synthesis Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) I highly recommend the New Zealand designed and built 'Stereo Coffee' which is a passive pre-amp with 3 (switchable) inputs. It is probably one of the best pre-amps in the world and I have had 3 and continue to buy new ones as they come out. The kit price is A$250. A fully built up unit is A$480. A fully built up unit with remote volume control is A$560 and this is the one I strongly recommend. Chris Daly is the designer. Just search 'Stereo Coffee preamp' or follow the link. I am not associated with the business in any way except as a customer and I receive no benefit from recommending it. https://stereocoffee.wixsite.com/ldrpreamp Here is another website which provides more details. https://robmid42.wixsite.com/diyaudiokits/stereo-coffee-preamplifier Edited June 6, 2020 by Synthesis To correct some punctuation. 6
davewantsmoore Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 8 hours ago, astonmartinv8 said: and of course their literature tells me how much more musical everything is with it Maybe, when you have issues with gain structure that the preamp solves.... but with the ability to set the gain correctly in the direct stream dac, this isn't an issue you will have. 8 hours ago, astonmartinv8 said: (bringing out the magic that the $9500 DAC forgot to ). Exactly 1
tripitaka Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 I doubt there is a correct answer since it all depends on your setup, and conversley most people giving advice are informed by experience with their own particular setups. I don't know about your PS Audio unit, but I'll mention something which doesn't get much of an airing and that is, if you are inputting PCM to your DAC then there's every chance that your DAC vol control is bitstripping, which will ruin the sound pretty damn quickly as the attenuation increases. A preamp would solve this problem, at least. Personally, I haven't found improvement over my DAC with any preamps I've tried... but then my DAC is normally set at an attenuation of over 40dB (I have efficient speakers) and so for all I know this might allow even an ordinary DAC output stage to sound ok. Of course, this could never work using PCM signals, which is the main reason I run with DSD. 2
Gabehcuod Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 I'd recommend to check out vintage accuphase, will through all of this modern SMD landfill crap out of the water. 1
MattyW Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) Well, the Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL 3 is an excellent preamp though if you need balanced may the dedicated LTA Preamp would be the go. I'm currently thinking about going passive again though so have a a DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2 on the way to try. I'm not really sure that it will work in my system well though as I bi-amp my DIY speakers. On the upside impedance of the passive pre is adjustable and my Abbas Audio gear have strong output so with some luck I'll be right. I've presently more gain than I require so generally only using the 1st three positions on the MZ3. Sound really wakes up with a bit more power at 5 or 6 but my wife doesn't like loud volumes (basically I get yelled at) so the ultimate low volume performance is always what I strive for. Edited June 11, 2020 by MattyW 1
astonmartinv8 Posted June 13, 2020 Author Posted June 13, 2020 On 06/06/2020 at 4:50 PM, todagt said: Pretty similar setup to you, tho I grabbed a Bryston BP26 pre to match my Bryston Power amp. And yes, I am in the 'A pre amp sounds better' camp Thanks interesting option.
astonmartinv8 Posted June 13, 2020 Author Posted June 13, 2020 On 11/06/2020 at 1:13 AM, Gabehcuod said: I'd recommend to check out vintage accuphase, will through all of this modern SMD landfill crap out of the water. What makes you suggest Accuphase (I have no experience of them)?
Gabehcuod Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, astonmartinv8 said: What makes you suggest Accuphase (I have no experience of them)? They're built like tanks and use very very high quality parts. Just take a look at the C-280V I'm a strong believer that a quality product should be using quality parts, yet when you open 99% of pre-amps these days, its just empty space. 1
astonmartinv8 Posted June 13, 2020 Author Posted June 13, 2020 Thanks very much, I will have a look into them.
Ittaku Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) According to Stereophile's measurements, your power amps have rather low input impedances. This means they're likely not going to be driven optimally directly by a DAC or with a passive preamp as well. "The balanced input impedance was 10k ohms across the audioband; the unbalanced stayed close to a moderately low 7.5k ohms at low and middle frequencies, dropping a little, to 7.2k ohms, at 20kHz." https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-sstsup2sup-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements I would suggest steering clear of a valve preamp, or a passive preamp in light of this. Edited June 13, 2020 by Ittaku 2
JulesOz Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) On 06/06/2020 at 7:03 PM, Synthesis said: I highly recommend the New Zealand designed and built 'Stereo Coffee' which is a passive pre-amp with 3 (switchable) inputs. It is probably one of the best pre-amps in the world and I have had 3 and continue to buy new ones as they come out. The kit price is A$250. A fully built up unit is A$480. A fully built up unit with remote volume control is A$560 and this is the one I strongly recommend. Chris Daly is the designer. Just search 'Stereo Coffee preamp' or follow the link. I am not associated with the business in any way except as a customer and I receive no benefit from recommending it. https://stereocoffee.wixsite.com/ldrpreamp Here is another website which provides more details. https://robmid42.wixsite.com/diyaudiokits/stereo-coffee-preamplifier Another DIY: http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm A bit more expensive Edited September 16, 2020 by JulesOz 1
Ittaku Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 On 08/06/2020 at 4:07 PM, tripitaka said: I don't know about your PS Audio unit, but I'll mention something which doesn't get much of an airing and that is, if you are inputting PCM to your DAC then there's every chance that your DAC vol control is bitstripping, which will ruin the sound pretty damn quickly as the attenuation increases. This idea is no longer relevant to modern DACs. It mattered with DACs that are over a decade old now. Considering most modern DACs do their volume control in 32 bit space which gives 192dB of dynamic range, they would need to strip an awful lot of bits before it mattered. 1
tripitaka Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 22 minutes ago, Ittaku said: This idea is no longer relevant to modern DACs. It mattered with DACs that are over a decade old now. Considering most modern DACs do their volume control in 32 bit space which gives 192dB of dynamic range, they would need to strip an awful lot of bits before it mattered. aha! brilliant info, thanks
Al.M Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JulesOz said: Another DIY: http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm A bit more exensive Looks like interesting kit and value. Only thing is that the used market does have access to such USD $5k rrp preamps options for around 30-50% of the new value and equal resale is there if you don’t like it. Whereas something like the SP14 for USD $1300 may only have about half that resale value. Kit and DIY products tend to have much lower resale value than original new price. It’s possible to get some very good used preamps for around $1-2k AuD that were once $3-6k and same used resale if you don’t like it e.g. Aust built Supratek for $2k used. Edited June 13, 2020 by Al.M 1
Nada Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, Ittaku said: This idea is no longer relevant to modern DACs. It mattered with DACs that are over a decade old now. Considering most modern DACs do their volume control in 32 bit space which gives 192dB of dynamic range, they would need to strip an awful lot of bits before it mattered. Im an IT idiot but I read there is no such thing as bit stripping: Digital volume attenuation does not change bit depth. If its a 24 bit PCM code and the volume is attenuated by 60 dB the PCM is still 24 bit encoded. No bits are stripped. The problem is the DAC SNR output will be compromised as the low signal sinks into the noise floor. If the DAC has a base 120dB SNR with a 0dB digital input and the digital stream is put through digital volume control at say -60dB the SNR (depending on the DAC architecture) will sink to only 60dB. Gain matching is vital using digital volume. This means its immaterial using 24 bit, 32bit or 64 bit digital volume control. The idea of 32bit being superior is just myth. Anything over 21bit exceeds any DAC technical limits with bits to spare. So 24bit is plenty.
Festooned Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Sure, the outputted rate won't change and your display will show the same bit depth.. you're just not using most of it! In that sense they are stripped. As was said earlier- that probably isn't an issue with current dacs unless you're outputting to them via a PC and it's using a stupid kind of volume control. Edited June 13, 2020 by treuben
tripitaka Posted June 13, 2020 Posted June 13, 2020 My understanding is the same as treuben, i have understood that each 6dB worth of volume drop occupies another bit.
Rosco8 Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) I have some preamp experiences with my Bryston 4bsst driving Dynaudio C2 Plat and now Apogee Slant 8's. Started with a Parasound SS pre, but highs were harsh, obtained an AR Ls15 which works well and is now back on the Bryston as my 3rd system. The guy who sold me the Bryston then convinced and sold me his Ayon Auris which he had matched to the Bryston, and this was a perfect match, its now driving an Accuphase A70 and the Dynaudios as my nos 2 system which is a great combination. So thoroughly recommend the Ayon Auris. I have a used Supratek on its way, end game i read for many. I have the Lightspeed LDR on my nos 1 system, i found it a little dry on the Accuphase but wonderful on my MC75 valve monos driving RAW Ref One's. Now i want to try a Stereo Coffee after reading the reviews Postscript .. Supratek Cabernet arrived with some amazing valves ... damm its good, vocals are projected into the middle of the room .. amazing 3d sound, matched with the Accuphase A70 and Dynaudio, and now my nos 1 system. Edited June 24, 2020 by Rosco8 Supratek arrived 2
Mat-with-one-t Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 Depending upon budget, have a look at the Aussie OAD preamp. It is quite a thing, and you’ll be hard pressed to find a better designed volume control. The interface adds a unique approach, and it’d likely match nicely with your setup.... https://sonicpurity.com.au/brands/oad
tripitaka Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 Apologies in advance for a silly question but can one have a 'reverse preamp'? ...by which I mean a step-down transformer used to reduce the dac output voltage without converting any of the precious current into heat which I presume all resistor-based attenuators do. And if such a device even makes sense, can one easily purchase attentautors of this type? I imagine that I could then put a 'normal' preamp immediately after this, to compensate for any loss in dynamics. As I mentioned above, my dac vol is typically set at -40dB or so, which means that a single a unexpected auto zero-reset event within the dac will fry a quite expensive system (not really sure what type of amp protection I have, if any). Thanks for any replies.
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