Budget DAC??

[pete_mac]

12 minutes ago, Steffen said:

In that case you may be able to make some gains by coupling the speakers more efficiently to your room. Can you move them closer to the corners, for example?

 

Yep, what he said. You'll need to experiment with speaker location (distance from the rear wall, distance from the corners etc) to get the most out of them. 

 

It's a large-ish room for small bookshelf speakers too - I'm not surprised that they sounded different when auditioned in a room half the size. You might also find that a suitable subwoofer will augment the lower frequencies and restore some that perceived punch and warmth.

Edited July 1, 2020 by pete_mac

[Ollie_H_]

3 minutes ago, pete_mac said:

 

Yep, what he said. You'll need to experiment with speaker location (distance from the rear wall, distance from the corners etc) to get the most out of them. 

 

It's a large-ish room for small bookshelf speakers too - I'm not surprised that they sounded different when auditioned in a room half the size. You might also find that a suitable subwoofer will augment the lower frequencies and restore some that perceived punch and warmth.

yeah im keen to get a sub at some point. I dont have the space to have the speakers in the corners unfortunately . Ive got them up on some old books and they already sound better

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pops110 said:

I would probably be investing in some Isoacoustics stands for the speakers first off if you’re going to keep them on the unit.

I agree.  Get a set of these when stock is replenished.

https://www.storedj.com.au/isoacoustics-iso-155-mk2-studio-monitor-isolation-stands-medium-pair

[Andre28]

Moving from bluetooth to a Laptop > Dac > Amp setup will certainly help. Even something like a Dacmagic 100 or the Schiit modi (which is probably better) plugged in via usb from your laptop would be a big step up from bluetooth.

[Guest rmpfyf]

@Ollie_H_ are they close to a mirror wardrobe door or are my eyes kidding me? 

 

They're getting a ton of reflections and near-wall-ish-ness that isn't super super but you can manage this to various degrees. 

 

You are a uni student so any solution needs to be a bit ghetto. Also you are a uni student so the parts and bits you need to make, test or develop anything are usually only a lab away.

 

Put them up, move them off the back wall and give them some room from the sides too. Experiment with tip in relative to where you it. 

 

Isoacoustics stands are nice if you can find them at ghetto second-hand student money otherwise just make your own out of anything you find off Gumtree or in scrap material, two Ikea bamboo slabs and a rattle can 'o' whatever colour you like. 

 

A DAC should you need one is a $100 problem. Bluetooth is a not excellent way to get tunes to a DAC though it can be made not to suck terribly, or just get an old PC to run something that'll get your tunes to your machine. There are DACs that will do this natively and handle all the 'make it sound better' stuff you'd need. Which DAC? The one that does what you need and is for sale in the classifieds will sound infinitely better at whatever price it's going than something functionally identical, is new and costs twice as much. 

 

Getting your speaker placement and room response sorted will slaughter anything a DAC can do for you at your funds. 

 

If you want to be a super uni student and are either in engineering or know someone that is, go nick (temporarily) a calibration microphone, measure your room response, pump that s*** into a PC and do some room correction. Results will be night and day. Some of the best s'ware for this was developed by uni students. Be an awesome uni student.

 

It's solveable. You'll be fine.

[Ruffter]

9 minutes ago, Andre28 said:

Moving from bluetooth to a Laptop > Dac > Amp setup will certainly help. Even something like a Dacmagic 100 or the Schiit modi (which is probably better) plugged in via usb from your laptop would be a big step up from bluetooth.

This is what I would have suggested. Two things would be to upgrade your source (laptop into schiit modi/modius) AND to experiment with room position and look at dedicated stands or at least shelf-top stands if you wish to keep them in there current position.

 

Good luck!

[Bunno77]

2 hours ago, Ollie_H_ said:

Alright everyone, I'm back once again with more painful beginner questions . Ive finally secured a really nice pair of book shelf speakers (Yamaha ns-b750) and amp (Yamaha AX-590). When I bought the speakers off this guy, he played them and they sounded AMAZING. Now that I've taken them home they just don't sound as punchy and rich. And yes I know cabling, wiring, room size, speaker placement, different amps, sound diffusion etc all make a difference to how a set up sounds. BUT, I mean they sounded like different speakers.

Do you remember what amp he had?

[Papajero]

EDIT: Double up

Edited July 1, 2020 by Papajero
double trouble

[Papajero]

2 hours ago, Ollie_H_ said:

thanks so much! you've definitely calmed me down and made me feel better. Got them for 500 bucks mint condition. They're great. Yeeah ive just raised them up closer to the ears and they do sound better. Probably gna macgyver some sort of stand. Might go raid bunnings or something lol. Thanks for that

A good speaker stand thread just started here on SNA a day or so ago. Some DIY ideas available

 

•  

[Ollie_H_]

2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

@Ollie_H_ are they close to a mirror wardrobe door or are my eyes kidding me? 

 

They're getting a ton of reflections and near-wall-ish-ness that isn't super super but you can manage this to various degrees. 

 

You are a uni student so any solution needs to be a bit ghetto. Also you are a uni student so the parts and bits you need to make, test or develop anything are usually only a lab away.

 

Put them up, move them off the back wall and give them some room from the sides too. Experiment with tip in relative to where you it. 

 

Isoacoustics stands are nice if you can find them at ghetto second-hand student money otherwise just make your own out of anything you find off Gumtree or in scrap material, two Ikea bamboo slabs and a rattle can 'o' whatever colour you like. 

 

A DAC should you need one is a $100 problem. Bluetooth is a not excellent way to get tunes to a DAC though it can be made not to suck terribly, or just get an old PC to run something that'll get your tunes to your machine. There are DACs that will do this natively and handle all the 'make it sound better' stuff you'd need. Which DAC? The one that does what you need and is for sale in the classifieds will sound infinitely better at whatever price it's going than something functionally identical, is new and costs twice as much. 

 

Getting your speaker placement and room response sorted will slaughter anything a DAC can do for you at your funds. 

 

If you want to be a super uni student and are either in engineering or know someone that is, go nick (temporarily) a calibration microphone, measure your room response, pump that s*** into a PC and do some room correction. Results will be night and day. Some of the best s'ware for this was developed by uni students. Be an awesome uni student.

 

It's solveable. You'll be fine.

Thanks so much youre a legend! if i was to get a dac i would abandon the bluetooth and just use a laptop to a dac to my amp. Im just using the bluetooth because my phones aux is broken, and so is my ipads aux port. The last thing i have is a laptop but i dont have any streaming services on it at the moment lol. Ive put them on some old books and toed them in and its already made a big difference. Idk if theres much else i can do right this second because im limited with where i can put them. They are set up near an open wardrobe thing lol ur right. Cheers for the help. youre great 

[Ollie_H_]

2 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

Do you remember what amp he had?

yamaha ax 590

[pete_mac]

Just now, Ollie_H_ said:

 if i was to get a dac i would abandon the bluetooth and just use a laptop to a dac to my amp.

I reckon if you connected the 3.5mm output from your laptop to your amp via a 3.5mm to RCA cable, it would most likely sound better than your phone via bluetooth. A separate DAC isn't absolutely necessary, especially if you are on a budget.

[Guest rmpfyf]

48 minutes ago, Ollie_H_ said:

Thanks so much youre a legend! if i was to get a dac i would abandon the bluetooth and just use a laptop to a dac to my amp. Im just using the bluetooth because my phones aux is broken, and so is my ipads aux port. The last thing i have is a laptop but i dont have any streaming services on it at the moment lol. Ive put them on some old books and toed them in and its already made a big difference. Idk if theres much else i can do right this second because im limited with where i can put them. They are set up near an open wardrobe thing lol ur right. Cheers for the help. youre great 

 

Ahhh then it's easy - Bluetooth goes in the bin for one.

 

A Topping D10 can be had for around $100 and is perfectly OK. Speaks all major music dialects you'll care about. You can spend $200 more but it won't be $200 better, you have other issues worth caring about. Every now and then they turn up on Drop.com at low money though posting a WTB ad will prolly get you one for around $100. It does DSD and high res enough to ass around with upsampling should you like. Yes there are others at the price though none are significantly different, many are worse and if you're only ever connecting USB you can stop caring about looking further now. It is not a reference DAC but any stretch but it is light years ahead of what you have, which will be audible. When you get a sub simply add another. There are no older secondhand DACs that can be had at similar money that have similar performance and functionality unless a seller has severe brain fade, leaves a zero off a price and suffers a severe case of morality in being held to as much.

 

Give the speakers some room. They need it. Play with it, it'll be audible.

 

Make sure you're using proper speaker cable and not any old conductive crap. You don't need to spend big but fit for purpose is good, same on interconnects.

 

Don't worry about the sub just yet.

 

You'll be getting some pretty sharp room modes (reflections) which you can correct to some degree but not completely. You'll need a calibration microphone - around $200 for a compete rig - and some freeware software to characterise what's going on and make some filters to tame it. The mic is much cheaper when you borrow it and give. Your room is fixed and you probably won't be changing stuff in the room you'll only need it once.

 

To apply that good stuff depends on how need you are. Can be coded into Linux, can be run in nice software like Roon. Your stuff will sound better, clearer. Many an anorak here will point out that it won't be perfect and that digital correction is the last thing you do, but stuff them, you're a student and you're not changing that wardrobe for something absorptive anytime soon. 

 

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good on this journey.

[Ittaku]

D10 is USB input only. You need a D30 for coax, optical, or better to go for an E30 which is still less than $200 but much better.

[Guest rmpfyf]

3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

D10 is USB input only. You need a D30 for coax, optical, or better to go for an E30 which is still less than $200 but much better.

 

Laptop. USB. Nothing else required.

 

But yes E30 is not quite under $200, but it is as close to twice better as any DAC is going to get. If you must spend a shade over $200, then get this one. But spend no more!

 

I had around $200 to spend and got two D10's with some digital filtering between subs and mains. Works fine.

[aussievintage]

Biggest thing is get the speakers a third of the way into the room from the back wall and sides.

[gwurb]

12 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Laptop. USB. Nothing else required.

 

But yes E30 is not quite under $200, but it is as close to twice better as any DAC is going to get. If you must spend a shade over $200, then get this one. But spend no more!

 

I had around $200 to spend and got two D10's with some digital filtering between subs and mains. Works fine.

SMSL Sanskrit 10th MKII is also an option where you can power via USB that is supplying audio or a separate USB power adapter. 
 

I'd suggest https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977 as a quick 'upgrade' for isolation. Put one in each corner of the speaker.

 

I do agree with what others have said. Try experimenting with a rug in the room, closing/opening the curtains, and seeing if you can divide the room in 2 with a screen or sheets or something and seeing how having a smaller space effects the sound. 
 

Also, try going for the traditional equilateral triangle where 1st corner is L speaker, 2nd corner is R speaker and 3rd corner is listening position.

[Ollie_H_]

23 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Laptop. USB. Nothing else required.

 

But yes E30 is not quite under $200, but it is as close to twice better as any DAC is going to get. If you must spend a shade over $200, then get this one. But spend no more!

 

I had around $200 to spend and got two D10's with some digital filtering between subs and mains. Works fine.

the topping d30 that is? did u find it makes a big difference in sound quality?

[Ollie_H_]

21 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Biggest thing is get the speakers a third of the way into the room from the back wall and sides.

yeah legit ahaha , its so impractical for a bedroom

[Ollie_H_]

54 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Ahhh then it's easy - Bluetooth goes in the bin for one.

 

A Topping D10 can be had for around $100 and is perfectly OK. Speaks all major music dialects you'll care about. You can spend $200 more but it won't be $200 better, you have other issues worth caring about. Every now and then they turn up on Drop.com at low money though posting a WTB ad will prolly get you one for around $100. It does DSD and high res enough to ass around with upsampling should you like. Yes there are others at the price though none are significantly different, many are worse and if you're only ever connecting USB you can stop caring about looking further now. It is not a reference DAC but any stretch but it is light years ahead of what you have, which will be audible. When you get a sub simply add another. There are no older secondhand DACs that can be had at similar money that have similar performance and functionality unless a seller has severe brain fade, leaves a zero off a price and suffers a severe case of morality in being held to as much.

 

Give the speakers some room. They need it. Play with it, it'll be audible.

 

Make sure you're using proper speaker cable and not any old conductive crap. You don't need to spend big but fit for purpose is good, same on interconnects.

 

Don't worry about the sub just yet.

 

You'll be getting some pretty sharp room modes (reflections) which you can correct to some degree but not completely. You'll need a calibration microphone - around $200 for a compete rig - and some freeware software to characterise what's going on and make some filters to tame it. The mic is much cheaper when you borrow it and give. Your room is fixed and you probably won't be changing stuff in the room you'll only need it once.

 

To apply that good stuff depends on how need you are. Can be coded into Linux, can be run in nice software like Roon. Your stuff will sound better, clearer. Many an anorak here will point out that it won't be perfect and that digital correction is the last thing you do, but stuff them, you're a student and you're not changing that wardrobe for something absorptive anytime soon. 

 

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good on this journey.

Thanks so much, definitely will look into that topping. Someone below mentioned the d30... Do u know much about that? Cheers for the advice and encouragement, really appreciate it!

[Guest rmpfyf]

Just now, Ollie_H_ said:

the topping d30 that is? did u find it makes a big difference in sound quality?

E30 is a new one. Inexpensive and good. But honestly given where you're coming from and where you're headed, the correct answer is 'whichever one is cheapest, runs to at least 384kHz, does DSD, doesn't have questionable jitter and will power off my laptop'. 

 

This

4 minutes ago, gwurb said:

SMSL Sanskrit 10th MKII is also an option where you can power via USB that is supplying audio or a separate USB power adapter. 

Is nice but has a questionable jitter characteristic. The D10 is cheaper and arguably better. It is also arguably better because it is cheaper in your instance. If something comparable turns up in the classifieds, on Massdrop or whatever other means, get that. DAC is only part of your problem and arguably the smaller part. I distinctly remember being a student and if I could solve a problem for $100 or if I could gold plate it a little for $200, nothing got gold plated. $100 buys a lot of beer/pizza/skittles. And seriously, think that $200 DAC is good? I can recommend a $500 that's beautiful. And on and on and on. 

 

Get the $100 DAC. If you get the bug you will sell it for around as much as you bought it, and then you can share the same disease we all seem to have, and you can be a contributing member on a forum where all seem to suffer misery until they spend more money, then are happy for a few months before the misery sets in again, before we can spend more money, before the misery sets in ad nauseum. You're a student dude, you need to eat.

 

This

5 minutes ago, gwurb said:

I'd suggest https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977 as a quick 'upgrade' for isolation. Put one in each corner of the speaker.

 

And this

5 minutes ago, gwurb said:

Try experimenting with a rug in the room, closing/opening the curtains

 

<snip>
 

Also, try going for the traditional equilateral triangle where 1st corner is L speaker, 2nd corner is R speaker and 3rd corner is listening position.

 

Are super good advice (though I wouldn't divide in 2).

 

I don't think you'll get much around that wardrobe. it's shiny and reflective right where you don't want reflective. Digital correction is your friend. If you had to spend another $100-200 on something, get a calibrated microphone and start tinkering. When you get a first result you'll never look back. 

[Ollie_H_]

4 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

E30 is a new one. Inexpensive and good. But honestly given where you're coming from and where you're headed, the correct answer is 'whichever one is cheapest, runs to at least 384kHz, does DSD, doesn't have questionable jitter and will power off my laptop'. 

 

This

Is nice but has a questionable jitter characteristic. The D10 is cheaper and arguably better. It is also arguably better because it is cheaper in your instance. If something comparable turns up in the classifieds, on Massdrop or whatever other means, get that. DAC is only part of your problem and arguably the smaller part. I distinctly remember being a student and if I could solve a problem for $100 or if I could gold plate it a little for $200, nothing got gold plated. $100 buys a lot of beer/pizza/skittles. And seriously, think that $200 DAC is good? I can recommend a $500 that's beautiful. And on and on and on. 

 

Get the $100 DAC. If you get the bug you will sell it for around as much as you bought it, and then you can share the same disease we all seem to have, and you can be a contributing member on a forum where all seem to suffer misery until they spend more money, then are happy for a few months before the misery sets in again, before we can spend more money, before the misery sets in ad nauseum. You're a student dude, you need to eat.

 

This

 

And this

 

Are super good advice (though I wouldn't divide in 2).

 

I don't think you'll get much around that wardrobe. it's shiny and reflective right where you don't want reflective. Digital correction is your friend. If you had to spend another $100-200 on something, get a calibrated microphone and start tinkering. When you get a first result you'll never look back. 

Okay, thank you so much, you've been the most helpful person i've bumped into on this journey so far haha, i appreciate u getting into my head space with budgets. So many times ive asked for something cheap and get recommended a $1000 piece of kit lol. Thanks again, ill give it a go! ill crack in ur name 

[Steffen]

15 minutes ago, Ollie_H_ said:

yeah legit ahaha , its so impractical for a bedroom

But sadly what’s called for most of all. No assortment of DACs can make up for the issues that speakers face when trying to fill a room. Not even close. I doubt you’ll even hear a difference, whether you spend $100 or $1000.

[Bunno77]

2 hours ago, Ollie_H_ said:

yamaha ax 590

Oh sorry I misread.

Yep a dac and suggestions from everyone above will help greatly

[Ittaku]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Laptop. USB. Nothing else required.

 

But yes E30 is not quite under $200, but it is as close to twice better as any DAC is going to get. If you must spend a shade over $200, then get this one. But spend no more!

 

I had around $200 to spend and got two D10's with some digital filtering between subs and mains. Works fine.

https://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/decoder-dac/products/topping-e30-dac-ak4493-xu208-32bit-768k-dsd512-touch-operation-with-remote-control-hi-res-decoder

 

$189 AUD at Shenzhen Audio