adamg Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 I have a SL-1200 with a Jelco SA-750 arm and am in the process of installing a new cartridge (Goldring E3). It's been about 5 years since I set up with the previous cart (Dyna 10X5) and I have a mind blank about setting the height of the arm (which is adjustable) to suit the cart. All I remember is using a pack of cards? I assume I did this previously for VTA reasons not that I am overly worried, let alone have the ability to measure it. That said I want to do my best with set-up. The 10X5 height to top of cantilever is 18.8 mm - not sure of recommended VTA The E3 height to stylus tip is 18 mm with recommended VTA of 20 degrees. Can anyone enlighten me on any rule of thumbs with setting the arm height? Does it really matter to much with a budget cart?
kelossus Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) A good starting point for VTA is the arm parallel to the platter with a record on it. The Jelco from memory has two grub screws for manual VTA adjustment. As the VTA is a manual adjust with no indicator of where it is currently set, I assume you used the deck of cards between the tonearm and the collar to gauge where the height is currently set. That would allow you to subtract or add a thickness of a single card or two to fine tune things. Edited July 8, 2020 by kelossus
cafe latte Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, adamg said: I have a SL-1200 with a Jelco SA-750 arm and am in the process of installing a new cartridge (Goldring E3). It's been about 5 years since I set up with the previous cart (Dyna 10X5) and I have a mind blank about setting the height of the arm (which is adjustable) to suit the cart. All I remember is using a pack of cards? I assume I did this previously for VTA reasons not that I am overly worried, let alone have the ability to measure it. That said I want to do my best with set-up. The 10X5 height to top of cantilever is 18.8 mm - not sure of recommended VTA The E3 height to stylus tip is 18 mm with recommended VTA of 20 degrees. Can anyone enlighten me on any rule of thumbs with setting the arm height? Does it really matter to much with a budget cart? If you had left the original arm on you would not have to worry about it Chris
2Brix Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 and https://www.vinylengine.com/library/jelco/sa-750d.shtml
adamg Posted July 9, 2020 Author Posted July 9, 2020 Thanks @kelossus, @2Brix and especially @cafe latte . With a bit more of look on the net starting at parallel is the go, then adjustment by ear. It's come back to me that with the 10X5 I did go through a process of adjusting heal and toe of the stylus (with the card under the collar) till I thought it sounded best. With the E3 pitched as a user friendly cart I'm going to assume the VTA / SRA will be pretty good with arm parallel. Interestingly I've discovered the relationship between VTA / SRA and the master cutter which I never new. Here are a couple of useful links. https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cartridge-alignment-the-basics-explained/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Aa8em5LXDM&feature=emb_rel_end 1
Warren Jones Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 Just set the arm parallel and leave it there. I have an SP10 with EPA100 (has VTAF) and EPC205 with Jico SAS considering the hooha about VTA/SRA and line contact stylus, I can not hear the difference with the arm all the way up and down a total of 7mm height adjustment. Tonearms where the COM (centre of mass) is lower than the vertical pivot are different because VTF changes when the arm is not parallel to the LP. If the cartridge is higher than the pivot the low COM increases VTF. This pic shows what happens when COM is low. The red dot is COM which is pulled downwards as the cartridge lifts. 1
cafe latte Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Warren Jones said: Just set the arm parallel and leave it there. I have an SP10 with EPA100 (has VTAF) and EPC205 with Jico SAS considering the hooha about VTA/SRA and line contact stylus, I can not hear the difference with the arm all the way up and down a total of 7mm height adjustment. Tonearms where the COM (centre of mass) is lower than the vertical pivot are different because VTF changes when the arm is not parallel to the LP. If the cartridge is higher than the pivot the low COM increases VTF. This pic shows what happens when COM is low. The red dot is COM which is pulled downwards as the cartridge lifts. What people miss is 8mm only equates to 2 degrees change in angle of the stylus in the groove. Most people messing with VTA adjust 1 or 2mm up or down and claim they can hear a difference, 1mm is fractions of 1 degree of rake angle ie nothing. Add to that record thickness variance, even differences as the stylus tracks the groove. If 1 or 2mm actually made a difference the vinyl format would sound terrible, but it does not. With conical or elliptical VTA is almost pointless, yes it does matter more with line contact but to hear a difference the arm is going to have to be wildly wrong ie many mm to hear anything. Anyone who thinks they can determine 1 or 2mm are kidding themselves. Perception bias if you will. Chris 2
adamg Posted July 10, 2020 Author Posted July 10, 2020 There is definitely discussion out there on the importance (or not) of VTA
cafe latte Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, adamg said: There is definitely discussion out there on the importance (or not) of VTA There is a lot of discussion in hifi that is nonsense, seems hifi exists is an alternative reality bubble where laws of physics dont apply VTA matter to some extent, but not for one or 2mm which too many people obsess over. We are talking about fractions of 1 degree of tracking angle. If vinyl replay was this critical the changing angle as the stylus tracks the undulating groove would sound terrible. Highly modulated passages would sound terrible, plonking a thick record on would sound off or maybe a thin one. Point is non of these things affect sound. Chris 1
Owen Y Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 Hey @adamg - trust your own ears, not what others say. With an elliptical stylus cart. like the E3, you will be hearing audible differences. As @kelossus says. start (with top of cartridge) parallel with the record - with most decent quality cartridges, you shouldn't vary much from there. You may need to re-adjust (by ear) after some hours 'running in'. The SL-1200 is a decent DD TT & the Jelco arm should only improve it. Enjoy. Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/
cafe latte Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Owen Y said: Hey @adamg - trust your own ears, not what others say. With an elliptical stylus cart. like the E3, you will be hearing audible differences. As @kelossus says. start (with top of cartridge) parallel with the record - with most decent quality cartridges, you shouldn't vary much from there. You may need to re-adjust (by ear) after some hours 'running in'. The SL-1200 is a decent DD TT & the Jelco arm should only improve it. Enjoy. Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/ Actually elliptical is not critical at all due to size and shape of contact area. Line contact though is more critical. Chris
Owen Y Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 Well actually, we know that everything in this game is relative.. Depending on your ears, your setup.... as said, the OP should just trust his/her own ears. IMHO & IME (40+ yrs messing with this stuff), there is a big jump in audibility of information between conical & elliptical. And, depending on those other factors, another big jump is poss. from elliptical to narrower stylus profiles. And there are many so-called 'line contact' stylus designs , some more radical that others- weinz, shibata, vdH, geiger, micro-line, replicant....etc (Not to mention different sized ellipticals.) Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/
cafe latte Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 23 minutes ago, Owen Y said: Well actually, we know that everything in this game is relative.. Depending on your ears, your setup.... as said, the OP should just trust his/her own ears. IMHO & IME (40+ yrs messing with this stuff), there is a big jump in audibility of information between conical & elliptical. And, depending on those other factors, another big jump is poss. from elliptical to narrower stylus profiles. And there are many so-called 'line contact' stylus designs , some more radical that others- weinz, shibata, vdH, geiger, micro-line, replicant....etc (Not to mention different sized ellipticals.) Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/ The is a jump in some respects between conical and elliptical but there are some nice conicals too think Denon. That aside the contact patch on an elliptical is kind of elliptical too and altering the angle a couple of degrees is not changing the contact patch in contact with the vinyl so it makes no difference. Line contact line an MR for example the contact patch changes with arm height so it makes more difference. Elliptical no though. Chris
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