Tax Posted June 15, 2011 Author Posted June 15, 2011 Hi TaxHave it all why pick . Better to take your time than stay on that audio component CHeers Hi 56 O, Yes, the merrygoround is like Kharma. Everyone must at least try it once..lol
KT77 Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Hi Tax, In my opinion I'd rather have a system that relates the inner most beauty and texture and tone of notes in a matter that allows the Music to wash over my very being/soul. As I was able to listen to a system last November that consisted of a WT Amadeus with a Dynavector XXmk2 ( $6.000 ) into both a Leben CS - 600s ( $6.000 ) driven by with a Audio Plan PhonoMaster Phono-stage ( $3.500 ) and coming out of a pair of DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3XL's ( $3.700 ) with about 20' of Auditorium A23 Speaker Cable ( $2.700 ) followed afterwards by several pieces of Shindo Lab gear around ( $20.000 the total ) and came away thinking with my other two friends whom attended the audition that the Leben based system was quite nice, having all the sparkle and detailing one would ever crave.........., until the Shindo was placed into said system, then all of a sudden we all began to laugh out loud and realized that one of them was in fact an imposter and sound was based purely upon the concept of what people want when they're seeking a more modern sound which is based upon detail and resolution, yet at the expense of musicality. The Shindo stuff simply breathed life into each and every Lp we listened to that evening, and added a greater sense of beauty, texture, warmth, roundness, more involving in an emotional way that merely made you realize things just sounded more Human if you will. The very fiber of the Notes just appeared more truer to pitch, the bass sounded unlike any other tube based system these ears have ever heard - period, it moved with each pluck of the bassist fingers in a manner that was quite scary to say the least. It also showed why the several pieces of Audio Research stuff was lying on the floor behind the listening seats ( it wasn't even a consideration to ask to hear it ) this was to my ears what Music was meant to be heard/felt it had texture to notes whether piano, guitar, bass or vocalists that made it all so real. I came home thinking to myself, so this is why so many reviewers whom have had the pleasure to review their wares, have ended up buying into the designers mind set of what music should be, but in most cases isn't, I also from that point on understood the importance as you've mentioned the finer art of voicing ones system as a means to enhance a greater sense of emotional attachment, which to my ears fell that many companies have lost sight of what's important in a search to offer buyers Hi-Rez at the expense of Musicality, which doesn't have anything at all to do with allowing the end user to be washed away in a manner that all of the worlds troubles are placed into a given set of ones priorities. We are all enduring sad times for our planet with constant wars between nations about little else more then pride. But at the end of a stressful/busy day wouldn't it be nice to have a system that was able to relax both ones mind and spirit in a way that made you smile and realize things could be better, but then again they could also be worse. In my mindset that's like saying losing my hearing or worse yet waking up tomorrow to total darkness. ( I know my words come across as a tad bit unconventional, but that's what makes us all individuals does it not?. ) in the end, I rather have my music wash over me, then thrown in my face on any given day of the week and twice on Sunday's. Take care all, Oscar
Guest Muon Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I always find this type of question difficult.. Umm...Warm, Natural, Dynamic, Musical and detailed
RockandorRoll Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Neutral speakers, warm amp, cold source = neutral overall?
proftournesol Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Neutral speakers, warm amp, cold source = neutral overall? ... or triple colouration?
damohpi Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Hi Tax, In my opinion I'd rather have a system that relates the inner most beauty and texture and tone of notes in a matter that allows the Music to wash over my very being/soul. As I was able to listen to a system last November that consisted of a WT Amadeus with a Dynavector XXmk2 ( $6.000 ) into both a Leben CS - 600s ( $6.000 ) driven by with a Audio Plan PhonoMaster Phono-stage ( $3.500 ) and coming out of a pair of DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3XL's ( $3.700 ) with about 20' of Auditorium A23 Speaker Cable ( $2.700 ) followed afterwards by several pieces of Shindo Lab gear around ( $20.000 the total ) and came away thinking with my other two friends whom attended the audition that the Leben based system was quite nice, having all the sparkle and detailing one would ever crave.........., until the Shindo was placed into said system, then all of a sudden we all began to laugh out loud and realized that one of them was in fact an imposter and sound was based purely upon the concept of what people want when they're seeking a more modern sound which is based upon detail and resolution, yet at the expense of musicality. The Shindo stuff simply breathed life into each and every Lp we listened to that evening, and added a greater sense of beauty, texture, warmth, roundness, more involving in an emotional way that merely made you realize things just sounded more Human if you will. The very fiber of the Notes just appeared more truer to pitch, the bass sounded unlike any other tube based system these ears have ever heard - period, it moved with each pluck of the bassist fingers in a manner that was quite scary to say the least. Great post Oscar, and welcome to the Forum. Shindo gear really is very special but relatively unknown in Australia
jaspert Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Nice post Oscar. What Shindo gear did you hear on that day?
Willco Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Morning Oscar, Well put--I know where you're coming from--Ken Shindo is one of the few designers that know how to deliver his craft--it's just a pity they are usually teamed with those DeVore speakers which are average at best. Willco
KT77 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Hi damohpi, Thank you. To my mind Shindo is just one of those rare brands that I feel every serious Music Lover owes it to themselves to hear in this oh so short lifetime. Hi jaspert, Thanks to you as well, the system is question consisted of a Shindo Masseto Preamp and Montrachet Poweramp. And as mentioned when used in tandem with the Acoustic Plan PhonoMaster Phono-Stage it bought tears to all three of us whom had traveled to Don Better Audio in Cleveland Ohio to hear them for ourselves, and to me it was the 3rd best system I've heard in my entire life - period. Hi Willco. Good day to you as well. Anyways, I beg to differ. As someone whom has been a avid Mini-Monitor collector for years and owning 13 different makes since '82 I can assure you that these speakers were anything but average, it merely a matter of putting the right amps on them which are as far as I'm concerned either Shindo, Wavac or MasterSound. My reference as far as said monitors go are the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's and I've been quite fond of your Guarneri's along the ways since first hearing them back in 2001 with a pair of Jadis JA-80's and have never forgotten that sound, yet I must add that to my ears the best sounding DeVore Fidelity Speakers happen to be the Silverback along with what I now consider my new reference point underneath the SF Cremona Auditor M's at a lower price point the Gibbon 3XL's ( $3.700 ) as we all have different taste and more often then not believe that what we own is much much better then what out friends may own!, yet I know a few Doctor friends of mine whom have the means and own systems well above $250.000 and their system shouldn't be in the same area code in comparisons to what I along with two others heard that day via these little speakers.............., it merely boils down to ones priorities as well as perceptions of what Musicality is!, but at the end of any given day it's about what I hear that matters most, hence I refer to my system as - Mi-Fi!. As I'm not here to please others when it comes to enjoying music in my own space, as many would rather see you make the same mistakes as them by recommending this or that component swearing it's the best thing they've ever owned, and then the following week it's up for sale on audioGon!, I can't speak for them nor you, but I know what it is I hear..........., and what I heard was highly involving and was emotionally correct in the manner to which the Notes were aimed straight at ones heart. You see, as I view it there are two ways to listen - one is with your ears, which the other is with your Heart!, and if I'm not moved, as far as being able to relate to the joy or sadness of said recording.........., then it defeats the purpose as it isn't capable of relaying the Message, and is useless. Just my Truth based upon what I hear that matters most TO ME!. Be well, Oscar
zydeco Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Over the past year I've set-up my system (3-way active speakers) in two rooms with quite different results. First room was our large,untreated, lounge room with tile floors (albeit with a rug) and speakers were about 2.8m from listener. Music in this room had a wonderful open soundstageand relaxed nature. Second room is a smaller room treated with bass /first reflection traps and speakers arranged in a near field manner. Music in this room is like being transported to the venue - it grabs your attention - and bass is wonderfully smooth. Recordings mixed with multiple close microphones are, however, terrible. The difference are, no doubt, due to room interactions with the long delayed, phase altered reflections, in the first room creating the soundstage while near field taking me to the venue. Which do I prefer? Well, it depends - the large room sound is perfect for relaxing & reading but near field sound immerses one in another world. Which is accurate? No idea, truthfully, as i don't have a reference for the recordings. That said, it'sclear that the guess that large room reflections are a form of distortion but one can think of the lack of distortion of the near field as being less accurate given than few recordings are voiced for near field. So my take is that the decision on musical vs accurate voicing is largely made in the room / speaker setup with a related critical factor being voicing assumptions within the recording. The cruel paradox, then, might be that in today's world perhapsthe most accurate set-up for some recordings is a pair of tower speakers pushed hard against the front wall separated by a reflective flat-screen tv! Oh, and if you're interested, the speakers now reside in the small room / near fields et-up driven by a combination of 300b and solid-state (bass) amplifiers. APS P.S. Paul - It's interesting that you referenced the Orion as low distortion. You could argue that with most recordings voiced for standard speakers the Orions introduce an unusually large amount of room related distortions. No doubt, though, that they sound great - indeed all those reflection open up a lot of confined modern recordings.
Willco Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Hello again Oscar, Ah yes I appreciate your words of wisdom and of course agree totally ones choice of Transducers for the relevant setup for ones taste. If the DeV's float your boat --fair enough -on the latter we shall differ. I just feel there are superior brands in the price point but yours is the decision alone. I've owned Jadis products too-- had my fair share of problems with them as well--the QC can be flaky--but a fine sounding brand. My Guarneri Homages( early versions NOT the latest incarnations-these sound hard to my ears) replaced Rockports and Harbeths and for a smallish room the G's are extremely involving. Enjoy your Music and good listening. Willco
ayou2 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) I like a soothing, warmish (without being cloying), musical system. If I can fall asleep in front of it ... its for me. I call it the 'Pipe & Slippers' sound. Oh & its got to be forgiving of bad recordings ... this is a must IMO. I used to be a fan of accuracy / neutrality / ultra revealing ... but IME this only leads to a swing in musical tastes. Before you know it all you listen to is pristinely recorded Muzak & smoky voiced chanteuses because thats about all that sounds good & your really listening to your system more than the music. Edited August 31, 2011 by ayou2
Zammo Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Being a digital/solid state/conventional driver type guy, I love how turntable/tube/other driver type guys always drone on about musicality and emotional involvement. I could easily drone on about euphonic colouration, treble roll off and even order THD, but I won't. As has already been stated, the terms neutral and natural are so subjective as to be almost meaningless. What are the frames of reference? Live acoustic music, emotional involvement? Whatever floats your boat really. In seeking a system that will play the very varied musical styles I listen to, I simply seek a playback system that will reveal as much information as possible on the disc (or file) with as little colouration/distortion (be that at any stage in the playback chain) as possible. That does not need to be at the expense of PRaT, emotional involvement or a sense of perceived reality. If the music doesn't move me or doesn't sound "real" then there is a problem with my system or the recording. Terms such as "too hifi", clinical, cold etc. are almost always directed at digital/SS/conventional driver components, but the two do not need to be synonymous (and I admit they sometimes can). The downside from my perspective is the requirement for well recorded material is heightened when aiming for such a system, but it also means I can vary the styles of music I play (and the "sound" of my system) simply by changing the recording - to me, that is listening to the "music" rather than the "system". Edited September 1, 2011 by Zammo
Steve M Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 I think a good system has it all - harmonic richness and accuracy. They are not mutually exclusive. Regards, Steve M.
Braddles 63 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) For me...... Well I have decided to get off this merry go round and return to what I was doing a few years back. Enjoy my music! It's funny because I had the same system for years and years ( vintage luxman and Polk audio ) and never felt I was missing anything. Sure I listened to some great setups in that time but when I got home and turned mine back on I again felt satisfied with what I had. Then for some silly reason I thought I "needed" a better amp. So I started down a very slippery slope of visiting shops and taking home stuff to test. And so I when on ..... Testing.......testing and more bloody testing. Anyway I got offered a great deal on a quad 99/909 and loved the sound but for some silly reason bought a belcanto amp. I think I wanted it to be better because it was a groovy looking thing. ......The things you do!.... Anyway I continued down the slippery slope and changed speakers, which i then changed for different speakers, which I ....well you get the point. Then I went back and changed amps a few more times and so on I went. The funny thing is I could have lived with any of the choices I made along the way (maybe not the belcanto) and been happy. But I was searching for this perfect sound that was musical, neutral, dynamic, smooth and so on and so on. In the end I lost my enjoyment for my music because I was too busy nit picking the **** out my system. So I said "stuff it" and have got back to the quad set up I enjoyed when alll this started and have just enjoyed my music again instead of worrying about what i might be missing. Sorry but I had to get that off my chest..........I feel better now! My name is Brad..... And Im an audioholic. OOoooo... i nearly forgot.... I blame all you here for all the above. Edited September 1, 2011 by Braddles 63
nfi42 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 For me...... Well I have decided to get off this merry go round and return to what I was doing a few years back. Enjoy my music! It's funny because I had the same system for years and years ( vintage luxman and Polk audio ) and never felt I was missing anything. Sure I listened to some great setups in that time but when I got home and turned mine back on I again felt satisfied with what I had. Then for some silly reason I thought I "needed" a better amp. So I started down a very slippery slope of visiting shops and taking home stuff to test. And so I when on ..... Testing.......testing and more bloody testing. Anyway I got offer a great deal on a quad 99/909 and loved the sound but for some silly reason bought a belcanto amp. I think I wanted it to be better because it was a groovy looking thing. ......The things you do!.... Anyway I continued down the slippery slope and changed speakers, which i then changed for different speakers, which I ....well you get the point. Then I went back and changed amps a few more times and so on I went. The funny thing is I could have lived with any of the choices I made along the way (maybe not the belcanto) and been happy. But I was searching for this perfect sound that was musical, neutral, dynamic, smooth and so on and so on. In the end I lost my enjoyment for my music because I was too busy nit picking the **** out my system. So I said "stuff it" and have got back to the quad set up I enjoyed when alll this started and have just enjoyed my music again instead of worrying about what i might be missing. Sorry but I had to get that off my chest..........I feel better now! My name is Brad..... And Im an audioholic. QFT. It's amazing how enjoyable a system is if you resist the temptation to go out and by something new.
Full Range Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 I just like music to transport me to that special place that I like Different music styles have different destinations In the end its a feeling one gets of comfort & satisfaction based on ones own interpretation Sometimes its also good to participate and be part of the music (as a band member) How many of you get up and air guitar to a favorite track FR
Zammo Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 )How many of you get up and air guitar to a favorite track FR I sometimes take it even further full range - guitar hero tragic, I've embarked on "expert" setting. My wife can't watch.
KT77 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Hi Willco, Since it's as you've mentioned a means to suit said listeners taste, and being open-minded enough to understand your points on both the DeVore's and your SF's I'd have to agree that for the money and going into an audition prepared to hear what's best is something many of us can't do, as some of our local shop's only carry certain brands and it makes it even harder to know which direction to pursue. Yet as mentioned I've gone through as many Mini-Monitors then just about anyone else I know, and it merely came down to owning another pair of Reference 3A Dulcet's or Spendor SA-1's or the Gibbon 3's, and it came down to having something which had a little bit more bass foundation as well as refinement to it, which again is why in my case I purchased the DeVore's. I've never been a person whom was taken with box coloration and had outgrown B&W speakers years ago, as they simply sound to hollow and/or boxy to my ears. I've enjoyed ProAc's and Harbert and Rogers LS 3/5A's along the ways as well and while impressed in manner in which they both highlighted vocals and acoustic ensembles I always was aware of their bass being altered to make up for its weakness. I can only speak on the things I've heard during my quest, but then again I prefer warmth, refinement and texture of notes above all else. I'm not trying to start and argument or anything of that nature far from it, I just rather speak from a point of view as it relates to Beauty of Notes and their ability to wash over me whereas an overly aggressive system would've me running for the power off button. I hope that during my time here we might be able to grow as brothers!, as all of us are here to learn from one another on means of trying to voice our systems to suit our priorities, are we not?. I just wish to have a voice in the matter and nothing more or less, we all have valid points to share with one another, it's just that it requires an open-mind from time to time to understand someone else's views. I look forward to picking your brain from time to time on matters to which I lack the knowledge to pass judgment, yet I can only pray that you're willing to bare with me and are willing to share your insight into such matters. It's all about us all finding our own paths during this journey, but having others whom care enough to assist others in avoiding mistakes along the ways is a plus. Regards, Oscar. Hello again Oscar,Ah yes I appreciate your words of wisdom and of course agree totally ones choice of Transducers for the relevant setup for ones taste. If the DeV's float your boat --fair enough -on the latter we shall differ. I just feel there are superior brands in the price point but yours is the decision alone. I've owned Jadis products too-- had my fair share of problems with them as well--the QC can be flaky--but a fine sounding brand. My Guarneri Homages( early versions NOT the latest incarnations-these sound hard to my ears) replaced Rockports and Harbeths and for a smallish room the G's are extremely involving. Enjoy your Music and good listening. Willco
gainphile Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 I tend to like speakers which sounds transparent and refined. And out of all speakers I've listened to, the Orions come on top by auite a margin. "Warm" or textured speakers can sound relaxing and impressive at first, but I find it really annoying after a while, as the coloration imprints all recording.
Guest Bodhisattva Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I take the view that you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm running a Boulder power amp which offers high power handling, wide bandwidth and is tomb quiet, detailed and organic sounding. The tonal balance is neutral. As such, it is a clear channel to let the music flow through. To balance the Boulder, i'm running an Ayon CD-5s with NOS 6h30DR tubes as my pre. The Ayon offers warm, rich, analogue sound with tube magic in the mids & sweet highs, but is also detailed and dynamic. Sadly i'm still waiting on some hardware from the states for my pc before I can put the theory into practice, but other Boulder owners have had excellent results with tube pre's like Vac & Audio Research. So in summary, solid state power to provide current, drive and stability, and tubes in the preamp section where they're not stressed and can operate in ideal conditions...best of both worlds! Bodhi Edited September 2, 2011 by Bodhisattva
Once was an audiophile Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Hi damohpi, Thank you. To my mind Shindo is just one of those rare brands that I feel every serious Music Lover owes it to themselves to hear in this oh so short lifetime. Hi jaspert, Thanks to you as well, the system is question consisted of a Shindo Masseto Preamp and Montrachet Poweramp. And as mentioned when used in tandem with the Acoustic Plan PhonoMaster Phono-Stage it bought tears to all three of us whom had traveled to Don Better Audio in Cleveland Ohio to hear them for ourselves, and to me it was the 3rd best system I've heard in my entire life - period. Hi Willco. Good day to you as well. Anyways, I beg to differ. As someone whom has been a avid Mini-Monitor collector for years and owning 13 different makes since '82 I can assure you that these speakers were anything but average, it merely a matter of putting the right amps on them which are as far as I'm concerned either Shindo, Wavac or MasterSound. My reference as far as said monitors go are the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's and I've been quite fond of your Guarneri's along the ways since first hearing them back in 2001 with a pair of Jadis JA-80's and have never forgotten that sound, yet I must add that to my ears the best sounding DeVore Fidelity Speakers happen to be the Silverback along with what I now consider my new reference point underneath the SF Cremona Auditor M's at a lower price point the Gibbon 3XL's ( $3.700 ) as we all have different taste and more often then not believe that what we own is much much better then what out friends may own!, yet I know a few Doctor friends of mine whom have the means and own systems well above $250.000 and their system shouldn't be in the same area code in comparisons to what I along with two others heard that day via these little speakers.............., it merely boils down to ones priorities as well as perceptions of what Musicality is!, but at the end of any given day it's about what I hear that matters most, hence I refer to my system as - Mi-Fi!. As I'm not here to please others when it comes to enjoying music in my own space, as many would rather see you make the same mistakes as them by recommending this or that component swearing it's the best thing they've ever owned, and then the following week it's up for sale on audioGon!, I can't speak for them nor you, but I know what it is I hear..........., and what I heard was highly involving and was emotionally correct in the manner to which the Notes were aimed straight at ones heart. You see, as I view it there are two ways to listen - one is with your ears, which the other is with your Heart!, and if I'm not moved, as far as being able to relate to the joy or sadness of said recording.........., then it defeats the purpose as it isn't capable of relaying the Message, and is useless. Just my Truth based upon what I hear that matters most TO ME!. Be well, Oscar Thanks very much for such well written post just by reading it i can say we hear with our ears(heart) the same way.
KT77 Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 Hi Kajak12, Thank you, as I've mentioned throughout.........., I can only speak on things to which I've actually heard with my own ears, as some reviewers are often times wide of the mark on what's said, while very few are willing to admit what's what............., more often then not, I attempt to read between the lines of what's being raved about over and over and over again by any given reviewer and it comes down to a very simple question - if what they just got finished raving about was indeed the greatest and best they had ever heard!, then why upon looking at the contents of their systems isn't this component there...................., it's as simple as that!, and I'm glad you're able to understand the manner to which I personally listen to said components!, we tend to either base things upon what we see in front of us, or by its price range ( snob factor ) or listening with our ears and not taking into account how a component should reach our hearts and either allow us to hear the sadness or cheer as a means of relating the innermost importance of the musical message itself. One again if it doesn't touch your very being, you'll have to ask yourself, as you're the only one that can answer this question...................., does it make you want to run out and buy another arm full of records/CD's?, or do you merely want to do something other then listen to music?. That's the task at hand, yet we as individuals must understand what a true listening session is meant to serve............., our minds, spirits and very souls, is it not!. Regards, Oscar ( The Long-winded one ) :-).
Graywulf Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I go along with the 'pipe and slippers' sound suggested above.... I have heard and had a very detailed sound, and to me it feels like the sound's trying to peel my face off, and I want to leave the room after a short listening session. Whether my system is considered Musical (which i beleive it is) or could be described as polite? or rose tinted? I leave to the individual listener. The advice I was given some decades ago by a shop (Father and Son owners The father was in his 60's when I was a teen) was simple, if YOU enjoy the sound? then the system is perfect. I have detail, maybe not to the Nth degree of others, I have involvement in the sound, I have soundstage, I have clarity, I CAN sit in my 'chair' and listen to a variety of music for 6-8hours (when SWMBO is at work and I have a day off) and I am still thoroughly enjoying the listening. That to me means my system is perfect, for MY ears.
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