Snoopy8 Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 On 17/08/2022 at 8:30 PM, Grizaudio said: Snoopy, do you know if the KIIs reclock the USB on input? The Kii Three resamples everything to 93.75 kHz internally. This is the rate used by Bruno Putzey in all his devices (but way beyond my expertise to explain why). 1 hour ago, Thelastjedi said: Has anyone compared this to a telos macro q? Im wondering if the phoenix would be an upgrade over the telos or on a similar level. Did not know about the product until you posted! And none of the Phoenix reviews mention it, let alone compare. From what I read, it takes a different approach. One review said the Telos had a subtle effect. The Phoenix is not subtle. I heard the difference immediately and it is even more obvious when removed.
Thelastjedi Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: The Kii Three resamples everything to 93.75 kHz internally. This is the rate used by Bruno Putzey in all his devices (but way beyond my expertise to explain why). Did not know about the product until you posted! And none of the Phoenix reviews mention it, let alone compare. From what I read, it takes a different approach. One review said the Telos had a subtle effect. The Phoenix is not subtle. I heard the difference immediately and it is even more obvious when removed. In my system the telos macro q added a bit more warmth and took out a bit of that glare you get from digital. It made tracks where the vocals are a bit forward sound a little more relaxed. For the price its hard to fault it. I think the phoenix would be a step up from the telos macro but by how much? If anyone in brisbane has one I could try in my system that would be great. 1
Grizaudio Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 33 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: The Kii Three resamples everything to 93.75 kHz internally. This is the rate used by Bruno Putzey in all his devices (but way beyond my expertise to explain why). Did not know about the product until you posted! And none of the Phoenix reviews mention it, let alone compare. From what I read, it takes a different approach. One review said the Telos had a subtle effect. The Phoenix is not subtle. I heard the difference immediately and it is even more obvious when removed. I find it interesting that the Phoenix provides improvement, understanding the Kii input module reclocks USB signals.
Snoopy8 Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Thelastjedi said: In my system the telos macro q added a bit more warmth and took out a bit of that glare you get from digital. It made tracks where the vocals are a bit forward sound a little more relaxed. For the price its hard to fault it. I think the phoenix would be a step up from the telos macro but by how much? If anyone in brisbane has one I could try in my system that would be great. I have tried a few USB improvement devices, but none of them come close to the Phoenix for SQ improvement. Yes, it is the most expensive by a long way and I did wonder how much more USB can be improved? Now, I warn people not to listen to one, unless they are prepared to spend! It is difficult to "unhear" the Phoenix sound, especially vocals. You may want to visit GC Hifi @TerryO who definitely has one! 1
Snoopy8 Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) On 19/08/2022 at 12:41 PM, Grizaudio said: I find it interesting that the Phoenix provides improvement, understanding the Kii input module reclocks USB signals. You are mixing up the clocking of the music (93.75, 44.1, 48 kHz) with the clocking of the USB, which is something different. The Phoenix improves the clocking of the USB only, and does not care nor affect the clocking of the music. Darko's review mentions that the Phoenix uses a 24MHz clock used in the USB data bus. It is the use of this frequency, a super expensive clock and 3 power supplies which makes the Phoenix so good. Edited August 28, 2022 by Snoopy8 Corrected USB bus speed
Grizaudio Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: You are mixing up the clocking of the music (93.75, 44.1, 48 kHz) with the clocking of the USB, which is something different. The Phoenix improves the clocking of the USB only, and does not care nor affect the clocking of the music. Darko's review mentions that the Phoenix uses a 24MHz clock which is a factor of 480 MHz used in the USB data bus. It is the use of this frequency, a super expensive clock and 3 power supplies which makes the Phoenix so good. Sorry reading too quickly on the phone. I would have assumed for a speaker at this level, with the digital technology on board, and outboard, USB input re-clocking would be included. Not just upsampling. I was looking at my setup - Motu MK5 lite, and can't find any information to suggest the input USB is re-clocked. It measures very well, but no mention of clocking. I wish I could try one of these devices before paying for it.
Grizaudio Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Thelastjedi said: In my system the telos macro q added a bit more warmth and took out a bit of that glare you get from digital. It made tracks where the vocals are a bit forward sound a little more relaxed. For the price its hard to fault it. I think the phoenix would be a step up from the telos macro but by how much? If anyone in brisbane has one I could try in my system that would be great. What would be great at Steronet would be a repository/inventory list for hardware/loan units (Any hardware) SNA members would be prepared to lend out for free/fee. Would be helpful, and I dare say used alot. Edited August 19, 2022 by Grizaudio
Grizaudio Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Thelastjedi said: In my system the telos macro q added a bit more warmth and took out a bit of that glare you get from digital. It made tracks where the vocals are a bit forward sound a little more relaxed. For the price its hard to fault it. I think the phoenix would be a step up from the telos macro but by how much? If anyone in brisbane has one I could try in my system that would be great. The Macro seems to use noise cancelling, via noise signal inversion. https://alpha-audio.net/review/review-telos-macro-q-usb-noise-canceller/ Edited August 19, 2022 by Grizaudio 1
Snoopy8 Posted August 19, 2022 Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Grizaudio said: I would have assumed for a speaker at this level, with the digital technology on board, and outboard, USB input re-clocking would be included. Not just upsampling. Given that the Kii Three sounds very good, I would expect it to have lots of optimisation. No point in speculating. There is NO information on what is done internally on USB, nor the DACs etc. The resampling of music to 93.75kHz was the only thing that leaked out. Going forward, my one and only suggestion is to listen to the Phoenix, ideally in your own setup. Edited August 19, 2022 by Snoopy8 Typo
Thelastjedi Posted August 21, 2022 Posted August 21, 2022 (edited) Does anyone know if Innuos will be releasing an update so that your innuos product will be able to read Iso files? Edited August 21, 2022 by Thelastjedi
44maloo Posted August 23, 2022 Posted August 23, 2022 I have recently added the Phoenix USB Relocker to my system and it adds a nice balance to the system. I was satisfied with my sound after adding a Antipodes EX with Oladra mod was reading about the K50 with the Relocker and got me thinking if this could add to an already incredible system. It needs to sit in the system for a week to settle down and sounds very nice, Knowing if it works with the system the acid test is to always take it out and listen again. For me it is staying, it's a nice addition. JBL Everest > MSB Reference Dac> Luxman MQ70 fully modded tube amp> Antipodes EX> Innuous Pheonix Relocker. sounds simply stunning!! 6
Kirby66 Posted August 24, 2022 Posted August 24, 2022 On 18/08/2022 at 12:03 AM, AussieMick said: The progression in audio quality from Mini - Mini + power supply - Zen - Zenith is well judged price/performance. For each addition chunk of cash you get a noticeable upgrade in performance. When I auditioned I thought the Zen was right in my happy value sweet spot so went with it and I’ve been happy. Some have reported that the PhoenixUSB is the best upgrade for a Zen, rather than upgrading to a Zenith. The value of the Phoenix is in further cleaning up the signal and the difference will be audible into a DirectSteam. The only way to know if it’s enough of a performance leap fir the cost is to try it and judge for yourself. Good luck! Adding a PhoenixUSB to my ZEN Mk3 was a very positive improvement for me - that and good USB cables from the ZEN to Phoenix to DAC ... gotta make sure you don't have a weak spot to get the best from each component 3
44maloo Posted August 24, 2022 Posted August 24, 2022 Agree kirb66 , cables matter. I’m playing with original curious usb and the Sablon Evo. Getting interesting results from using them in different ways in the system.
AussieMick Posted August 25, 2022 Posted August 25, 2022 Cables cables cables! Everything matters, right? I moved from Cardas HS USB to AudioQuest Diamond and was stunned by the improvement. 2
Kirby66 Posted August 25, 2022 Posted August 25, 2022 6 hours ago, 44maloo said: Agree kirb66 , cables matter. I’m playing with original curious usb and the Sablon Evo. Getting interesting results from using them in different ways in the system. Hey 44maloo, when I first went down the digital path with my ZEN Mk3 I started with Curious USB, then to Curious Evolve now I'm on Atlas Mavros and each step has been a quite noticeable improvement. The Salon EVO looks tasty, did you find it in AUS?? 1
Kirby66 Posted August 25, 2022 Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, AussieMick said: Cables cables cables! Everything matters, right? I moved from Cardas HS USB to AudioQuest Diamond and was stunned by the improvement. Yup everything ... source files or media, cables, power, room, speaker position, components, racks, isolation ... quantity of Bundy consumed (whoops did I type that out loud ) ... it's only as good as the weakest link - which seems never to stop only move to something else every time I upgrade anything - such is the journey 2 1
44maloo Posted August 25, 2022 Posted August 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Kirby66 said: Hey 44maloo, when I first went down the digital path with my ZEN Mk3 I started with Curious USB, then to Curious Evolve now I'm on Atlas Mavros and each step has been a quite noticeable improvement. The Salon EVO looks tasty, did you find it in AUS?? No I know mark coles as I have 4 Sablon power cables in my system. I’ve had it for about 3 weeks and running it in, initially sounds rich and organic in my system.
Snoopy8 Posted September 1, 2022 Posted September 1, 2022 On 17/08/2022 at 11:52 PM, frankn said: I also wonder about the Phoenix reclocker when using the DirectStream DAC as it immediately upsamples any input and throws away clock data so would the Phoenix be superfluous here? You are mixing up hardware clocking (24 MHz for USB) and music clocking (44.1 kHz, 48 kHz and their multiples). The Phoenix regenerates and reclocks the USB signal and does not change the data in any way or form. When used with the Phoenix, the DirectStream DAC will receive the same data, and do its upsampling of the music data, as it does now. Lots of info on the Phoenix here. 2
Kirby66 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 innuOS updates ... historically I have a preference for leaving software alone unless there is a major functional improvement or a known problem an update fixes. I have just read however that innuOS updates are sequential so you need to complete each one not just the latest. My Zen Mk3 is currently 2.0.8 so there are four to get to the latest 2.1.1 - has anyone had experienced any issues with 2.1.1 or more generally with doing updates as soon as they are released? Are there separate updates for the Sense AP or is that integrated with innuOS? thanks
Hydrology Posted September 3, 2022 Author Posted September 3, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Kirby66 said: innuOS updates ... historically I have a preference for leaving software alone unless there is a major functional improvement or a known problem an update fixes. I have just read however that innuOS updates are sequential so you need to complete each one not just the latest. My Zen Mk3 is currently 2.0.8 so there are four to get to the latest 2.1.1 - has anyone had experienced any issues with 2.1.1 or more generally with doing updates as soon as they are released? Are there separate updates for the Sense AP or is that integrated with innuOS? thanks No such issues doing these software updates and I generally do them as soon as I become aware of them. Edited September 3, 2022 by Hydrology 1
Snoopy8 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 (edited) Part II Too late to add to original post Additional reviews https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2020/03/01/hifi-innuos-zen-mini-mkiii-review-with-phoenix-usb-re-clocker-and-lspu/ https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/04/26/innuos-statement-music-server-review/ https://avguide-ch.translate.goog/testbericht/test-phoenix-usb-reclocker-von-innuos-naeher-dran?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc Comparing Phoenix with other USB devices AustinPop in AS has done many comparisons of USB devices and ranked them in order of increasing sound quality and increasing cost: Wyred 4 Sound Recovery Intona Isolator Intona Isolator + W4S Recovery Uptone ISO-Regen SOtM tX-USBultra SOtM tX-USBultra reference clocked by MUTEC Ref 10 = Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker (discussed in review) SOtM tX-USBultra reference clocked by MUTEC Ref 10 SE 120 Audio Bacon (Review) found that the tone of the SOtM tX-USBultra (with LPS, no external clock) is more grey and neutral relative to the Phoenix. He preferred the depth and more natural tone of the Phoenix. Ehrmantraut (SNA post) compared a Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB and Ref 10 Masterclock with the Phoenix. The Mutex combo was better is a system comprising a Sonore Signature Rendu SW (Roon end point) and Holo May KTE DAC. The Phoenix just won with a Auralic Aries G2.1 (Roon end point) and Mola Tambaqui DAC. Hifi Knight's Review used an iFi audio stack (a micro iUSB3.0, nano iGalvanic3.0, three Mercury3.0 USB cables in-between plus one 9V iPower) to compare with the Phoenix. He found that the "lack of the Innuos loaner stung harder than the iFi family’s absence, which confirmed the former’s sonic superiority over it". Darko found that the Phoenix scored higher than the Wyred 4 Sound Recovery (see below). I had only the JCAT XE USB card for comparison and it lost to the Phoenix. To summarise, the Phoenix will beat most other USB devices other than a couple devices clocked by a Mutec Ref 10 (which cost more than the Phoenix). Does the quality of streamer matter with Phoenix? The reviewers tended to use better streamers. Audio Bacon, AustinPop and Darko, favoured the Innuos ZENith MkII SE. 6 Moons used an iMac, fair Audio an Innuos Zenmini, as did Steve Huff. HiFi Knights had a fidata HFAS1-S10U, HiFi+ a Melco N10, theEar used an Auralic Aries G1, Part Time Audiophile and avguide.ch had a ZENith Mk 3. But does a streamer matter? Darko (review) used various streamers and compared a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery to the Phoenix. Recovery improved Aries Mini from 4 to 5; with Phoenix to 7 (out of 10) Recovery improved Pi 3 from 1 to 4; with Phoenix to 6 Innuos ZENith MKII SE standalone score is 8 Recovery went backwards with Zenith from 8 to 6; with Phoenix, improved to 9 Phoenix improved Roon Nucleus+ from 5 to 7.5 Small Room Audio (video review) believed that it was better value to upgrade to a superior streamer like a Sonore OpticalRendu than add a Phoenix to a Pi device (e.g. Allo USBridge Sig). The OpticalRendu sits somewhere between Darko’s Aries Mini and the ZENith. The OpticalRendu is half the cost of a Pi and Phoenix. If the OpticalRendu gets a score of between 5 and 6 (educated guess?), the Small Room Audio finding does align with Darko. Looking back, I took a similar path with my initial streamer upgrade to the JCAT XE USB card and a Gieseler LPS, about a third of the cost of a new Phoenix before I went to the Phoenix. There are streamers so good that the Phoenix will have little, if no impact. The Phoenix is built into the Innuos Statement. There are mixed reports on the Antipodes and other forums about whether the Phoenix can improve the then top of range K50. I have not found a Taiko Extreme nor a Pink Faun Ultra owner using a Phoenix. To summarise, if you are on limited budget, it is probably more value to upgrade the streamer than add a Phoenix. The Phoenix will improve most streamers, other than streamers at the very high end. Does quality of DAC matter with Phoenix? Only 13th Note's video review talked about the quality of the DAC; he suggested that it needed a DAC of the level of a Chord Hugo TT2 to benefit. His DACs were a Hegel bit perfect DAC, Chord Qutest and RME ADI-2 DAC FS. However, the other reviewers used only one dac in their reviews. 6 Moons : Denafrips Terminator Audio Bacon : Chord DAVE AS AustinPop: Chord DAVE with Hugo M-Scaler Darko : Kii Three fair Audio: Kii Three HiFi Knights : LampizatOr Pacific Hi-Fi+ : Métronome Audio Le DAC theEar: iFi Pro iDSD Steve Huff: Vinnie Rossi L2 Part Time Audiophile: Bricasti Design M1 Limited avguide.ch: Kii Three BXT Ehrmantraut had 2 DACs, Holo May KTE and Mola Tambaqui, but paired them with 2 different streamers. So, it is not possible to say whether the quality of a DAC matters with the Phoenix. Similarly for an upsampler; only AustinPop was using one. Do USB cable and power cable matter? Audio Bacon (Review) was the only one which discussed USB cables and power cables, and they do matter. I agree, but given the contentious nature of these subjects, I prefer not to start another heated debate here. Some interesting questions The 6 Moons Review (which does meander) asked a number of interesting questions including: Why a better clock makes a difference? How does USB reclocking improve sonics? How does isolation of other USB devices fail? Why does Innuos prefer USB? Is the Phoenix right for you? You will have to audition the Phoenix in your setup to know for certain if it is right for you. Please note that you should power up for a minimum (longer, even better) of 24 hours before listening. This will allow the clock to settle. If you are on a limited budget, it is probably more value to upgrade the streamer. However, for those with larger budgets, I suspect that you will like the Phoenix. Hence my warning that, unless you are prepared to spend, please do not audition it. Edited September 9, 2022 by Snoopy8 Updated 6 1
Kirby66 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 15 minutes ago, Hydrology said: No such issues doing these software updates and I generally do them as soon as I become aware of them. Thanks @Hydrology
eostre23 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 40 minutes ago, Kirby66 said: Thanks @Hydrology Ditto what Hydrology said. 1
Gazza13 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 I have the matching PSU for my Zen Mini MKIII on the way. Really tempted to get the Phoenix. I have an Aqua La Scala MKII DAC which is incredible and was eyeing the matching LinQ streamer they make but it's very costly and I'm not sure if the massive price delta between a Zen Mini + PSU + Phoenix Vs a LinQ can be justified. Will watch this thread with a keen eye. 1
Snoopy8 Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Gazza13 said: I have the matching PSU for my Zen Mini MKIII on the way. Really tempted to get the Phoenix. I have an Aqua La Scala MKII DAC which is incredible and was eyeing the matching LinQ streamer they make but it's very costly and I'm not sure if the massive price delta between a Zen Mini + PSU + Phoenix Vs a LinQ can be justified. You posted before I managed to update Part II (post before yours) which covers streamers. While I do not know the Aqua LinQ streamer, I suspect the Zen Mini MkIII + LPSU + Phoenix to beat it. There are 2 reviewers who tested the Phoenix with the Zen Mini, Steve Huff and Fair Audio.
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