Guest rmpfyf Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 30 minutes ago, Red MacKay said: Peter - I think you are correct - this looks the product mentioned. But no @rmpfyf - I don't want screened cables. Every flexible lead that I have tried that is screened, always sounded "closed in" to my ears. Nope, I am not using TPS either. I have gone for what is known as orange circ. It basically is like really BIG extension lead cord. No shielding, but it has a lay (helical twist) and that helps mitigate rfi and other junk getting in. This product is virtually all that is used in factories Australia wide. (well - when we had factories!) It's super robust, does a great job and I have bought 50m of new made in OZ product already. Because it's super cheap - orange circ has zero audiophile kudos. Like I care! I have a 10mm orange circ run to my EV station. Easy enough to get at AWM. Me want screened for the next run. Hell, I'd run both and nix the one you like less. Ain't going to cost much. You no likey screened means most audiophiles will think you This said I'd still give both a shot not least as many a power lead is essentially VSD or tooled from it. That lovely Gigawatt stuff? Solid core VSD. And you can get your Electron Master to jerry up some nice leads for you whilst you're there. And if you don't like any of them you could flog them here under the EpicRed brand. Ask your sparkie about wiring your earth direct to stake bypassing the bus.
andyr Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Red MacKay said: Because it's super cheap - orange circ has zero audiophile kudos. Like I care! But as you signature says, Red ... ""If Red doesn't like it, it might actually be worth listening to.""! Andy
Red MacKay Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) I'm feeling a bit like Kamahl here guys... Edited January 25, 2021 by Red MacKay
robbee Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 Maybe a battery powered amp might be the go? www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/rocksolid_e.html
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 14 hours ago, Red MacKay said: I'm feeling a bit like Kamahl here guys... Like a Malaysian with a 50+ year career in showbiz? You're feelin' lucky.
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 Actually @Red MacKay always thought his daughter deserved to do better with her music career.
mfforever Posted January 28, 2021 Author Posted January 28, 2021 Hi from original forum starter ( who started with no knowledge of any regulations and less knowledge of the understanding of wiring ) : What a quantum of great information, diverse experiences and detailed knowledge on my dedicated power line journey............ Thank you all. ...... after reading this and past forums from the past 7 years ( wow.... 2014 was feisty ! ). and my own research I would conclude the following re my approach : 1) Given my financial position and my age, I have no option but to follow Australian regulations regarding certification re insurance ( this means, alas, I am restricted to Aust compliant 240V mains wire cable and power outlets that are..... well, ... AUS compliant . Sadly goodbye to all those great European wiring and power points. ie.. Gigawatt. etc ). Thus ONE 6mm Orange circular mains wire from the mains box (mjselectrical for about $6 a metre ) . I will run ONE cable from the main fuse box to ONE Clipsal double power point. 2) The one power point will be a double Clipsal 10 A. 3) I will plug my amp directly into one side of the power outlet and then plug my Isotec power board into the other side ( this will service a DAC and a Streamer with their associated PSU.) 4) The dedicated cable will have a RCBO at the mains fuse box. 5) And this seems to be a matter for debate, but in the end it seems to be this ( please note I will consult my installing licensed spark before final decision ) : NO SEPARATE EARTH STAKE for the dedicated line, but I will update the existing earth stake to a deeper one and better quality.. What do you think ????????????? This is my last home, so I was prepared to spend more, but in the end, Australian certification is what it is, and who am I to argue ? I do realise that there are better options in the broader world, but this is what I can do. Last opinions much appreciated . 1
Bunno77 Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 @mfforever might be worth considering anything else you may need while the sparkies are there. Data cable to streamer and or future security cameras Smoke alarms - laws are changing/changed. Might not be necessary if not planning to sell (I am not sure on NSW regs for this) New power points or lights etc
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 8 hours ago, mfforever said: Hi from original forum starter ( who started with no knowledge of any regulations and less knowledge of the understanding of wiring ) : What a quantum of great information, diverse experiences and detailed knowledge on my dedicated power line journey............ Thank you all. ...... after reading this and past forums from the past 7 years ( wow.... 2014 was feisty ! ). and my own research I would conclude the following re my approach : 1) Given my financial position and my age, I have no option but to follow Australian regulations regarding certification re insurance ( this means, alas, I am restricted to Aust compliant 240V mains wire cable and power outlets that are..... well, ... AUS compliant . Sadly goodbye to all those great European wiring and power points. ie.. Gigawatt. etc ). Thus ONE 6mm Orange circular mains wire from the mains box (mjselectrical for about $6 a metre ) . I will run ONE cable from the main fuse box to ONE Clipsal double power point. 2) The one power point will be a double Clipsal 10 A. 3) I will plug my amp directly into one side of the power outlet and then plug my Isotec power board into the other side ( this will service a DAC and a Streamer with their associated PSU.) 4) The dedicated cable will have a RCBO at the mains fuse box. 5) And this seems to be a matter for debate, but in the end it seems to be this ( please note I will consult my installing licensed spark before final decision ) : NO SEPARATE EARTH STAKE for the dedicated line, but I will update the existing earth stake to a deeper one and better quality.. What do you think ????????????? This is my last home, so I was prepared to spend more, but in the end, Australian certification is what it is, and who am I to argue ? I do realise that there are better options in the broader world, but this is what I can do. Last opinions much appreciated . Australia has great power points, so please don't worry that you're missing out on anything. Get a Clipsal 56 series and worry no more (buy those online). Run as many circuits as you need and can handle. You'll be limited by what your switchboard can take, which is for your sparkie to calculate. Running multiples is not expensive if they're pulled through, clipped back together. You can run VSD (screened) cable instead of orange circ, or both. You'll get either at Lapp, and it's cheaper than $6/m (orange circ at least). ESD cable is essentially what Gigawatt and others are tooled off of (there are other options aside from Lapp, some with nicer sheathes). You don't get a say in the RCBO. If you can, put your amps and DAC on different circuits. No separate earth stake unless it's all downstream of an isolating transformer or miles away from your earth. Don't replace your existing earth stake - add to it! More stakes, bentonite slurry, spaced as far apart as they are deep and wired together. Quality isn't a thing, copper is copper, it's all about contact area and quality. Upgrade that main earth wire to 6mm at least and you can have the earth from the dedicated circuits connected directly to the stakes, bypassing the bus in the board. Last opinions? The suggestion that it's better overseas is vastly overrated. Quit being sad. If you need cables, definitely get some VSD cable, some decent IECs and nice Clipsal plugs, and have your sparkie make up and test what you need.
Dirkgerman Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 4mm2 TPS would be enough, the Orange Circular is, er overrated https://www.clipsal.com/products/detail?CatNo=2025D&itemno=2025D-WE&tab-document-1=0 for the power point. In my 35 years contracting, I have never in my life seen a multiple earth stake system on a domestic home the member above is an Engineer, not an Electrician (with all due respect of coarse) multi stake earthing has it's own problems/safety minimums of installations also. 6mm2 is minium man protective safety earthing conductor, install 10mm2 if you must as an earth connector. Don't forget to upgrade the switchboard, this if anything is the best improvement. Seems strange to me that someone will own a half million dollar home and have a 70y/o switchboard, that drives all the elect. within it. Good luck, the rest of your new found theory is sound.
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dirkgerman said: the member above is an Engineer, not an Electrician (with all due respect of coarse) multi stake earthing has it's own problems/safety minimums of installations also. With all due respect, let the Engineer explain what he suggested for clarity: multiple stakes joined. Not independent. Single earth, just more conductive area - drops the impedance to ground. An easy enough bit of fun, inexpensive, safe, legal. Would note though - and you may have come across it in your travels - TT earthing used to be quite common pre the 80's (when RBCOs were, um, not). Which is enough of a reason to bring stuff up to code, IMHO. 4 hours ago, Dirkgerman said: In my 35 years contracting, I have never in my life seen a multiple earth stake system on a domestic home The Engineer suggests you might not get out enough quite common in some parts of the world. 4 hours ago, Dirkgerman said: 6mm2 is minium man protective safety earthing conductor, install 10mm2 if you must as an earth connector. Indeed it is. What's there depends when and how it was done. Hence 6mm2 suggestion. 4 hours ago, Dirkgerman said: 4mm2 TPS would be enough, the Orange Circular is, er overrated Let the OP live a little 4 hours ago, Dirkgerman said: Seems strange to me that someone will own a half million dollar home and have a 70y/o switchboard, that drives all the elect. within it. Quite common around these parts. This said, first thing done when I took ownership of the current abode - sparky in, bring it all up to code please. It's just not worth the risk. Edited January 30, 2021 by rmpfyf
mfforever Posted January 30, 2021 Author Posted January 30, 2021 Thank you all for the experienced discussion ..... just now to the fine tuning. ( this means that I knew nothing about wiring before this thread started and now I can make " informed " suggestions to my sparkie ) From the final replies ( hey ...... is audio ever final ? ) can I pose a few final questions / observations / emotive declarations ? The final ( ????? ) dedicated wiring proposal : 1) Since I have a new mains switchboard ( about 5 years old) with plenty of capacity for new circuits , I am thinking 2 dedicated lines - a). one with 6mm Orange Circular mains wire to take my Musical Fidelity Trivista 300 ....... this amp has a massive 16 kg separate power supply so I reckon any bad stuff will be vaporised . I will plug my amp directly into this. b) another dedicated line with Lapp VSD wiring where I will plug my Isotec power board that accommodates my dac/ psi , my streamer / psu and my big REL sub. In regards to this VSD wiring, can I ask rmpfyf a question ?????? When looking at the Lapp website do you mean the Olflex 100 CY VSD clear screened Flex coloured 4 G6 ( 3 plus E ) cable at $ 22.50 a meter ? The price I can do as I I want to do this once and get it as right as it can be . And furthermore, rmpfyf, ........ your reply " quit being sad " in regards to non - European power points etc ...... I LOVE it .......... couldn't agree more. ..... we live in the best covid safe country in the world ( well, umm, I think NZ has that banner ), we listen to Science over weird conspirist stuff , we have access to great Stereonet forums , AND we can afford great Hi FI at whatever level we want to have a go at.
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 10 hours ago, mfforever said: Thank you all for the experienced discussion ..... just now to the fine tuning. ( this means that I knew nothing about wiring before this thread started and now I can make " informed " suggestions to my sparkie ) From the final replies ( hey ...... is audio ever final ? ) can I pose a few final questions / observations / emotive declarations ? The final ( ????? ) dedicated wiring proposal : 1) Since I have a new mains switchboard ( about 5 years old) with plenty of capacity for new circuits , I am thinking 2 dedicated lines - a). one with 6mm Orange Circular mains wire to take my Musical Fidelity Trivista 300 ....... this amp has a massive 16 kg separate power supply so I reckon any bad stuff will be vaporised . I will plug my amp directly into this. b) another dedicated line with Lapp VSD wiring where I will plug my Isotec power board that accommodates my dac/ psi , my streamer / psu and my big REL sub. In regards to this VSD wiring, can I ask rmpfyf a question ?????? When looking at the Lapp website do you mean the Olflex 100 CY VSD clear screened Flex coloured 4 G6 ( 3 plus E ) cable at $ 22.50 a meter ? The price I can do as I I want to do this once and get it as right as it can be . And furthermore, rmpfyf, ........ your reply " quit being sad " in regards to non - European power points etc ...... I LOVE it .......... couldn't agree more. ..... we live in the best covid safe country in the world ( well, umm, I think NZ has that banner ), we listen to Science over weird conspirist stuff , we have access to great Stereonet forums , AND we can afford great Hi FI at whatever level we want to have a go at. With correct and apporpriate deference to @Dirkgerman, the correct wire is the one: Your local regulatory safety body is OK with, which should coincide with what Your sparkie will sign a certificate of compliance for So here's what I'd do. Contact your local regulatory body first (it's free, it's pretty good - down here in Vic it's Energy Safe Victoria, and they're pretty awesome to deal with. You simply leave a message for the technical lead, and they usually respond in a day or two with a clarification). Find a sparkie you like if you haven't already Go through said sparkie with your plans (I will procure my own Clipsal 56's, I want to use these cables, I want the earth done this way, etc). Listen to what they have to say if it's a why/why not argument. When you get a solution you're happy with, book it and get it done As for the Lapp cable - their VSD cable is cheaper and has more connection possibilities in black. If you want a polyethelyne sheath, Treotham stocks something that works also. Bambach makes VSD in 2 core + earth if you want to simplify. Using this stuff is easier if your chosen sparkie has worked on industrial sites using it before.
mfforever Posted February 1, 2021 Author Posted February 1, 2021 Really good specific suggestions ( I find specific suggestions fantastic because with little knowledge of a subject the suggestions can get lost in translation ..... all noted with great appreciation....... will have a look at these wires./ cables ...... with thanks
Red MacKay Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 20 years back I worked for MM Cables, and talking with their fancy pants engineers, they all unanimously said that Pirelli made the best quality mains cable as their polymer and insulation materials were in front of everyone else. I don't know if that has changed since then.
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 45 minutes ago, Red MacKay said: 20 years back I worked for MM Cables, and talking with their fancy pants engineers, they all unanimously said that Pirelli made the best quality mains cable as their polymer and insulation materials were in front of everyone else. I don't know if that has changed since then. At Middys https://mybranch.middys.com.au/product/20485
Red MacKay Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 That one is only 1.5mmsq. I still maintain orange circ is better as it has a 'lay' and that helps get rid of RFI. It's made for use outdoors and underground and the only thing used in industrial applications. 6mmsq is what I have bought and what I am going to use. Nope - I didn't get Pirelli as I am not going to be in this home for more than probably the next few years. I should have done it 20 yrs ago!
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 37 minutes ago, Red MacKay said: That one is only 1.5mmsq. I still maintain orange circ is better as it has a 'lay' and that helps get rid of RFI. It's made for use outdoors and underground and the only thing used in industrial applications. 6mmsq is what I have bought and what I am going to use. Nope - I didn't get Pirelli as I am not going to be in this home for more than probably the next few years. I should have done it 20 yrs ago! They've got the full catalogue, you can go to 16mm2. You'd be surprised how much VSD is used in industrial - or anything else, really depends on the application. Some of the ex-Telstra people will be able to talk to some mega copper busbars around exchanges running serious amps. Horses for courses. Sometimes orange circ is just more convenient to pull, too. The run I have here made life easier
Red MacKay Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 I believe VSD is used in industrial applications, only running to machines, not as hard installed runs. This was to stop as much RFI interference from frequency drives getting back onto the mains. This was years ago now though, and things may have changed.
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 1, 2021 Posted February 1, 2021 9 hours ago, Red MacKay said: I believe VSD is used in industrial applications, only running to machines, not as hard installed runs. This was to stop as much RFI interference from frequency drives getting back onto the mains. This was years ago now though, and things may have changed. You'd be surprised - there are high-EMI in many applications. Where it's usable it's cheaper than hard shielding. Then it gets used in audiophile cables and called legitimate audiophile cable at a silly markup
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 3, 2021 Posted February 3, 2021 Interestingly just got a quote for 3 core 6mm + split earth with polyethelene insulation rated to 1kV... under $12/m. Not bad.
Ittaku Posted February 3, 2021 Posted February 3, 2021 52 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Interestingly just got a quote for 3 core 6mm + split earth with polyethelene insulation rated to 1kV... under $12/m. Not bad. Bah you're not competing till you can be charged $12,000 USD per metre. https://www.thecableco.com/cables/power-cables/triple-crown-power-cord.html
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 3, 2021 Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Bah you're not competing till you can be charged $12,000 USD per metre. https://www.thecableco.com/cables/power-cables/triple-crown-power-cord.html Con I propose we purchase some VSD at $12/m and charge 1000x this amount. The truth can't be far different
Ittaku Posted February 3, 2021 Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, rmpfyf said: Con I propose we purchase some VSD at $12/m and charge 1000x this amount. The truth can't be far different No, that might actually perform better...
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