Active Speaker Owners Comparison Discussion (Kii, D&D, SGR, Buchardt etc.)

[Jhsg]

8 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

 

Hi John, i remember hearing about Thierry some time back and the great results people were getting.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but are his filters fed directly into the 8c's DSP via the web interface? SO you are using this file rather tan one created via REW and then uploaded to the 8c's?

Hi mate, no, the 8c’s only accept a parametric eq from REW. The convolution is a zip file loaded into my roon core. 
 

Attached are some screen shots of what you get with the 8c’s. The REW integration is good but convolution filters are much better than parametric eq’s. You can also start playing with cross talk which allows some manipulation of the sound stage. When you deal with Thierry he’ll send you some filters and you can go back and forth with him to get things right. The first cross talk filter he sent me had my soundstage expand way too much. I could hear instruments off the side walls and there was a lot going on behind my head. I got him to soften them a little so the soundstage is wide but not over the top. 

[wikeeboy]

14 minutes ago, TerryO said:

When it comes to bass it is not very often that I have heard Mike Lenehan say he is impressed by someone else's speakers, in fact I have only heard him say it once while he and Simon Garcia of Heschl Amplifiers were cuddling one each.  ...  

 

There is no doubt the BXT modules take the Kii Three's to another level. In comparisons we clearly need to be splitting out Kii, and Kii+BXT because they are different beasts.

 

It is fair to say the value proposition of the Kii Three alone is significantly aided by the upgrade ability of the base Kii Three system to Kii+BXT.

 

It often seems when 8c and Kii are discussed, the first differences discussed are in the bass region. Due to the pricepoints, comparing Kii Three ($28k) to 8c ($20k) is somewhat similar and fair even though Kii is still significantly higher. If you are wanting greater heft in the bottom end of the Kii, closer to say the 8c, then it is a very significant jump adding BXT to get there (triple the cost).

[Jhsg]

23 minutes ago, TerryO said:

When it comes to bass it is not very often that I have heard Mike Lenehan say he is impressed by someone else's speakers, in fact I have only heard him say it once while he and Simon Garcia of Heschl Amplifiers were cuddling one each.  ...  

 

PS ... I know, even though it is true, this doesn't add anything of purpose to the conversation other than hopefully putting a bit of a smile on some serious faces.

Awesome!! I’d love to hear the bxt’s. If Mike thinks the bass is great - they must produce one hell of a sound.
 

..... p.s. Would love to be able to afford them too!

[wikeeboy]

1 hour ago, Jhsg said:

Hi mate, no, the 8c’s only accept a parametric eq from REW. The convolution is a zip file loaded into my roon core. 
 

Attached are some screen shots of what you get with the 8c’s. The REW integration is good but convolution filters are much better than parametric eq’s. You can also start playing with cross talk which allows some manipulation of the sound stage. When you deal with Thierry he’ll send you some filters and you can go back and forth with him to get things right. The first cross talk filter he sent me had my soundstage expand way too much. I could hear instruments off the side walls and there was a lot going on behind my head. I got him to soften them a little so the soundstage is wide but not over the top. 

 

Ah huh! Thanks for the clarification. I'd forgotten the finer detail!

 

Ok so that's really interesting feedback. Roon & Thierry it is

 

So if i have a Roon Nucleus for example, and some Kii Three's and 8c's at home, i would run an REW sweep through each speaker and then get Thierry to do a unique file for each? I'd then in theory be getting the best result possible in room for each speaker system, from which i could then compare on their merits to decide which speaker i prefer?

 

I guess the downside to this is the convolution file in Roon does not apply to any analogue signals such as your turntable? In that case you'd be better with the onboard eq settings in the Kii or 8c which would then apply to all incoming signals?

 

[gibbo9000]

We are touching on it - so lets draw out the impact of the chosen 'house' or standard curve the active speaker manufacturers set as their default, what we hear as differences, and what are the limitations to changing it?  Some thoughts from my playing.

 

Kii's out the box measure pretty much flat down to 25Hz but certainly don't have the punch / gravitas / air movement my old 15 inch Tannoy's had.  So I set up a Dirac curve that mirrored this 'house' Kii curve but extended flat to 15Hz, and applied that with no sub, and with sub crossover at 30, 50 and 80Hz.  I guess I mentally expected more of the punch with more sub - but that was quickly debunked.  Doh!  At normal listening level pretty much impossible to tell the difference - which is what I should have expected given they were normalised to the same Dirac target!.  What does change is the Kii's start to limit earlier with the <25Hz frequencies pushed up to meet Dirac curve, and later when the sub is taking over some of the load for the same curve.  With the 50 / 80 Hz crossover and volume very loud for me the punch emerges. 

 

I did more playing and to emulate the Tannoy's at my normal listening levels I had to elevate the Dirac curve by 3 - 4 db below 500Hz with sub cross over at 80Hz. 

 

So there is certainly a physical limitation to how much 'punch' the Kii box size / speaker config / amp power can support low down (but it is still pretty damn good!) - and a sub can help get around that (for less $ than BXT's).  Sounds like the Genelec's / D&D 8c's have less limited physical bottom end than Kii's (larger boxes, larger drivers), but greater 'punch' at normal listening levels would be as much a function of boosted bottom end 'house' DSP curve as greater capability.  At least that is my thinking anyway.

 

Similarly, from my brief listening, the BXT's in 'standard' config don't naturally bring hugely more 'punch', they are more subtle than that, but I assume they can if DSP adjusted to do so.

 

Would love to see some measurements around this . .

Edited February 20, 2021 by gibbo9000

[Jhsg]

12 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

So if i have a Roon Nucleus for example, and some Kii Three's and 8c's at home, i would run an REW sweep through each speaker and then get Thierry to do a unique file for each? I'd then in theory be getting the best result possible in room for each speaker system, from which i could then compare on their merits to decide which speaker i prefer?

 

He has his own measurement tool which is easy to use. You can find it on his website. It runs a a series (I think 8 sweeps) and saves a file which you send him. You just need a UMIK or similar and you can find his sweep audio files on roon. Its all much easier than using REW. 

 

I cant remember and im too lazy to check how much it costs but if the first filters are about 200 euro's and he then charges about 40 euro's if you change a component and want to update the filters. I have gone back to him a few times now to upgrade my filters with new DAC's, new speakers etc. 

 

On first look it may seem expensive but when you're paying several thousand dollars for cables injected with special snake oil to get a slightly different sound, it suddenly becomes a small and meaningful investment.  

 

12 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

I guess the downside to this is the convolution file in Roon does not apply to any analogue signals such as your turntable? In that case you'd be better with the onboard eq settings in the Kii or 8c which would then apply to all incoming signals?

 

 

Correct... I dont run much vinyl these days as I have OCD when it comes to music and like to have full control over what I am listening to. If I did dust off the turntable I would, as you've pointed out - rely on the REW room correction in the 8c's to get the room correction. 

 

 

[firedog]

19 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

Kii's out the box measure pretty much flat down to 25Hz but certainly don't have the punch / gravitas / air movement my old 15 inch Tannoy's had. 

Well, of course they don't. They can't. And no one should expect it. To move enough air to give you a physical "punch" you need big woofers and a lot of power.

[Ray H]

Yes Kii 3 and Kii 3 + BXT are completely different propositions and should be given the price differential. The addition of the Kii provides other benefits than just bass output. Gives the system a sense of boundless dynamic capability, less restrained, bigger soundstage etc.

 

If I’m being honest though, as great as the addition of BXT is, based on your individual experience, the addition can be a debatable vfm argument. Yes the crossover can be dialled up to make the BXT bass reasonably “bonkers” if you want.

 

I have owned a couple of passive systems that outperform the Kii/BXT reasonably easily. Being a bit of a bass lover. The two most memorable are Dynaudio C2’s with Dual JL Audio F212. Which are truly superb subs (the best bass I’ve owned by a large margin) The other was gryphon system (Atlantis speakers) with dual Martin Logan 212 balanced force subs. As has been pointed out there is no substitute for big drivers/power.

 

It would be great if Kii added an output for a sub, I know some members have added a sub with an external crossover or dsp unit. I can understand Kii probably don’t have appetite for this given sales cannibalisation. But I hold out hope they do at some point as not everyone can afford the BXT.

 

in truth the Kii 3 bass on its own is technically impressive at 25hz response and very punchy, but it’s still quite a dry response in reality.

 

Given the Dutch 8c has such good bass for its size, will be interesting to see if Dutch develop a sub solution themselves. By the feedback I’ve seen, most users don’t seem to think it is missing anything by not having it.

 

Couple of the subs pictured for ref;

 

 

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Well, of course they don't. They can't. And no one should expect it. To move enough air to give you a physical "punch" you need big woofers and a lot of power.

 

Point taken - but not quite what I was getting at. 

 

@Ray H touched on the issue above.  What is the source of the 'punch'?  Why might one be 'dry'?  Does a 75db 25Hz transient signal sound the same if coming from multiple smaller drivers facing different ways, versus a single large driver?  Can one have 'punch' and not the other given sound waves at that frequency aren't directional? Or is the 'punch' coming from a higher SPL / more bass tilted frequency response (set in design of passives, in theory under control of the DSP in actives)?

[wikeeboy]

I'm not as technically literate as the rest of you lot, but i had a pair of Perigee FK1's for many years. Pretty sure they had twin 6.5" cones along with a ribbon tweeter. They weren't 'big woofers' but they had a stack more 'punch' than the Kii's so it's not always merely the woofer size.

 

I'll leave it to Gibbo to eloquently and technically explain with this may be the case

32 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Yes Kii 3 and Kii 3 + BXT are completely different propositions and should be given the price differential. The addition of the Kii provides other benefits than just bass output. Gives the system a sense of boundless dynamic capability, less restrained, bigger soundstage etc.

 

If I’m being honest though, as great as the addition of BXT is, based on your individual experience, the addition can be a debatable vfm argument. Yes the crossover can be dialled up to make the BXT bass reasonably “bonkers” if you want.

 

I have owned a couple of passive systems that outperform the Kii/BXT reasonably easily. Being a bit of a bass lover. The two most memorable are Dynaudio C2’s with Dual JL Audio F212. Which are truly superb subs (the best bass I’ve owned by a large margin) The other was gryphon system (Atlantis speakers) with dual Martin Logan 212 balanced force subs. As has been pointed out there is no substitute for big drivers/power.

 

It would be great if Kii added an output for a sub, I know some members have added a sub with an external crossover or dsp unit. I can understand Kii probably don’t have appetite for this given sales cannibalisation. But I hold out hope they do at some point as not everyone can afford the BXT.

 

in truth the Kii 3 bass on its own is technically impressive at 25hz response and very punchy, but it’s still quite a dry response in reality.

 

Given the Dutch 8c has such good bass for its size, will be interesting to see if Dutch develop a sub solution themselves. By the feedback I’ve seen, most users don’t seem to think it is missing anything by not having it.

 

Couple of the subs pictured for ref;

 

 

 

Appreciate the feedback and comparisons with your passive systems Ray.

 

Damn, those JL's are seriously drool worthy  Would love to have experienced that set up.

 

[gibbo9000]

35 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

Damn, those JL's are seriously drool worthy

Looks like a pair would be a great stands on which to put <insert Kii, D&D, Bucahrdt etc. . . . . >

[Ray H]

33 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

Looks like a pair would be a great stands on which to put <insert Kii, D&D, Bucahrdt etc. . . . . >

Yeah that thought did cross my mind, I put a pair of C1’s on top for a while, worked quite well.

 

im not convinced massive drivers are required for good bass either, tuning, cabinet resonance control all play a part. The Kii 3’s are obviously tuned to sound the way they do. Not everyone is going to love/like it.

[Ray H]

1 hour ago, gibbo9000 said:

 

Point taken - but not quite what I was getting at. 

 

@Ray H touched on the issue above.  What is the source of the 'punch'?  Why might one be 'dry'?  Does a 75db 25Hz transient signal sound the same if coming from multiple smaller drivers facing different ways, versus a single large driver?  Can one have 'punch' and not the other given sound waves at that frequency aren't directional? Or is the 'punch' coming from a higher SPL / more bass tilted frequency response (set in design of passives, in theory under control of the DSP in actives)?

Yes, I agree on the summisation. I certainly think the best bass I’ve heard comes from middle size woofers. The 12” version in the JL Audio being a reasonable example. It’s not a big driver by subwoofer standards. It does have big power and great cabinet rigidity. The bass is explosive in nature and not home theatre explosive either.

 

Line array speakers like the Dali Megaline and even the Gryphon Pendragon, don’t use big drivers (8” for the Gryphon) and they operate in unison to create incredible bass.

[sir sanders zingmore]

The discussion of “fully active speakers as all in one boxes” vs “fully active speakers with separate components” is interesting to me. 
 

I’ve landed in the latter camp but I can see why people might favour either approach. 
 

The single box allows the manufacturer to control the whole chain and therefore (potentially) optimise it. But what if something breaks?
 

The multi box approach allows you to byo components and tweak and replace stuff more easily if it breaks. But all the boxes can be visually unappealing and the usability can be less than seamless. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by sir sanders zingmore

[BugPowderDust]

8 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

The multi box approach allows you to byo components and tweak and replace stuff more easily if it breaks. But all the boxes can be visually unappealing and the usability can be less than seamless. 

The Genelecs seem to have a horse in both races. The bigger units (eg 1238a) have an external amplifier section that you can rack mount which is where all the dsp happens.

There’s only a pair of speakon connectors from the amplifier stage to the speakers, (but they apparently match the amp to the monitors in the factory).

I really like this approach.  Even if all the electronics go kaput at some stage in the future, you’ll have options, even just running the monitors off another amplifier will work, though you lose the genelec dsp.
 

I imagine this amplifier will be able to be purchased discretely too so you may be able to go up to a future generation without changing your main cabinet.

[Topman_Chief]

Other than at audio shows, I haven't had the chance to listen to the all-in-ones - although the Kii's with BXT were best in show sound for me. I'm also watching the Buchardt story closely, as I can see a pair of those in my future. 

 

My two cents on 'punchy' bass is that is more about air movement, and not necessarily just at the lowest frequencies. I have standmounts with single 6.5" drivers, which I then supplement with a sub. I'm happy with the sound for the investment (good soundstage, speakers disappear, sub makes for a 'full' sound), but I know that single 6.5" drivers won't give me that mid-bass punch that floorstanders with three or four 6.5" (or larger) drivers might. On electronic or folk music you won't miss it, but with rock you do. 

[wikeeboy]

1 minute ago, Topman_Chief said:

Other than at audio shows, I haven't had the chance to listen to the all-in-ones - although the Kii's with BXT were best in show sound for me. I'm also watching the Buchardt story closely, as I can see a pair of those in my future. 

 

My two cents on 'punchy' bass is that is more about air movement, and not necessarily just at the lowest frequencies. I have standmounts with single 6.5" drivers, which I then supplement with a sub. I'm happy with the sound for the investment (good soundstage, speakers disappear, sub makes for a 'full' sound), but I know that single 6.5" drivers won't give me that mid-bass punch that floorstanders with three or four 6.5" (or larger) drivers might. On electronic or folk music you won't miss it, but with rock you do. 

 

Agree with your comments. It's an exciting time to be in this space with so many great options popping up.

 

Only minor thing i'm at odds with is the comment re Electronica. I love my electronic tunes and the 'punch' is absolutely essential to me for this genre.

[sir sanders zingmore]

I know this is probably off topic but I reckon people think the "punch" or "slam' frequency is a lot lower than it actually is. To me it's always about mid to upper-bass rather than low bass

 

[wikeeboy]

1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I know this is probably off topic but I reckon people think the "punch" or "slam' frequency is a lot lower than it actually is. To me it's always about mid to upper-bass rather than low bass

 

 

Yes, totally agree with this. I remember reading somewhere yesterday that 'punch' is in the 150hz range which is what your pic above shows.

 

This is why i'm finding the Gen 8351's having greater punch than the Kii's, even though the Kii's go flat to 20hz and the 8351's 'only' 32hz. That lower register is not where the slam and punch occurs.

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

 

Yes, totally agree with this. I remember reading somewhere yesterday that 'punch' is in the 150hz range which is what your pic above shows.

 

This is why i'm finding the Gen 8351's having greater punch than the Kii's, even though the Kii's go flat to 20hz and the 8351's 'only' 32hz. That lower register is not where the slam and punch occurs.

 

The thing with actives is that you can EQ them. Want more punch, just boost that region.

That's why I sometimes struggle to say what an active speaker 'sounds' like

 

So it would be interesting to boost the Kiis at around 150Hz and then compare

Edited February 22, 2021 by sir sanders zingmore

[wikeeboy]

3 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

The thing with actives is that you can EQ them. Want more punch, just boost that region.

That's why I sometimes struggle to say what an active speaker 'sounds' like

 

So it would be interesting to boost the Kiis at around 150Hz and then compare

 

Agree with the theory. I guess the issue then becomes power handling? 

 

If i was regularly getting clipping signals around 85db with the Kii's, then boosting up that 150hz may make this worse? I think @gibbo9000 may have mentioned something about this earlier and i agree (Power handling). Putting subjective sound quality aside, the greater power handling of the 8351's i have allow me to turn the wick up harder in that region giving more perceived slam. 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, wikeeboy said:

 

Agree with the theory. I guess the issue then becomes power handling? 

 

If i was regularly getting clipping signals around 85db with the Kii's, then boosting up that 150hz may make this worse? I think @gibbo9000 may have mentioned something about this earlier and i agree (Power handling). Putting subjective sound quality aside, the greater power handling of the 8351's i have allow me to turn the wick up harder in that region giving more perceived slam. 

 

Of course you are correct. One of the other benefits of some active speakers (like the Kiis) is that when someone silly (like me!) comes along and says "just crank up that frequency" they let you do it but not enough to cause any damage

  

[Jhsg]

36 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I know this is probably off topic but I reckon people think the "punch" or "slam' frequency is a lot lower than it actually is. To me it's always about mid to upper-bass rather than low bass

 

This is a good input - I really like that graph - thanks. Your point regarding type of bass is important. The bass I’ve been referring to is in that 60-150 range. As I listen to mainly rock, there’s not much happening below 50hz.. 
 

The attached is another one I like. I found it particularly useful when recording / mixing bands. I’ve applied it to hifi eq but have only had limited success as you can’t isolate an instrument and improving one instrument can negatively impact another. You also find yourself improving one album but muddying up others. The journey is fun nonetheless.  
 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Jhsg

[BugPowderDust]

1 hour ago, wikeeboy said:

Only minor thing i'm at odds with is the comment re Electronica. I love my electronic tunes and the 'punch' is absolutely essential to me for this genre.

Much of that punch in a kick in electronic music comes from layering lots of sounds to get the right kick sound.  

 

Believe it or not, a lot of the harder styles of dance music lay about 3-5 kicks together and frequently use things like low passed closed hi hats to give that kick that makes them seem like they are just jumping out of the speaker. 

 

Despite downright detesting psytrance, I don't think I've ever heard a kick go deeper and lower than Infected Mushroom on a big rig. Just bowel churning.  

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by BugPowderDust

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I know this is probably off topic but I reckon people think the "punch" or "slam' frequency is a lot lower than it actually is. To me it's always about mid to upper-bass rather than low bass

Very useful reminder and graphic

 

45 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I think @gibbo9000 may have mentioned something about this earlier and i agree (Power handling)

It is pretty well documented that the combination of small, sealed cabinet and 4 long throw drivers partially out of phase really chews power in the Kii's and they will begin to power limit around 85db despite 250 W per driver.  In DSP mode it is also about how they manage impulse response rather than steady frequency reproduction, plus the whole cardiod theory.

 

Will do some testing around the 150Hz 'punch' theory.  I do remember when setting up sub at 80 Hz crossover or lower, I ran Dirac boost of 4db up to around 300Hz to get a sound that felt balanced and punchy.  The sub also unloads the Kii bass drivers and allows overall increase in SPL before limiting cuts in (well above my view of loud, loud listening)

Edited February 22, 2021 by gibbo9000