Exposed: The Ghost Train Fire

[Esoterica]

This is on abc and can be streamed on iview. I just watched a part (not sure if first or second) of this miniseries and it is one of the best investigation series I've seen. I had to come here and recommend it. It is riveting and compelling viewing, about a very infamous and tragic event in Sydney, and the original police investigation to the cause.
 

If like me, you didn't know much about it, it will be eye-opening. I was a kid at the time but remember hearing about it for years afterwards. Even if you think you know about the event, prepare to be stunned at what Caro and her team discover. I was so enthralled, I was waiting until the credits had rolled, hoping to see that there was a final part. There had to be, but I wasn't sure and when they showed the preview it looks incredible. Even bigger bombshells to come next Tuesday!

[Tweaky]

It was part two you watched tonight.

 

I had watched the trailers for it over the last few weeks, as I knew quite a bit about what went down, and the players involve in the arson [It was arson]  but yet to be revealed on the program....watch next week.

I'm interested to see how far the got/get to the truth. it's a still ongoing investigation......they have links to give information to the at the ABC news website.....I'll wait to see what's revealed next week to decide if I can help

 

I used to work down at Circular Quay in Sydney at the time of the fire [June 1979] which is on the direct opposite side of the harbor, to Luna Park

We had just finished work walked outside facing the Opera House and saw the very thick black smoke coming from beneath the harbor bridge.

What made the smoke so shocking, was that it was really clear early winter night, the type that you get in Sydney, you could clearly see the stars, and the smoke was a very harsh contrast to everything else.

It really looked like a Tyre dump had caught alight, the smoke was that thick and black.

 

At first we thought it might have been a ferry or some other large boat that had caught alight, so we rushed to where the smoke seemed to be coming from.

It was then we looked under the bridge and saw the fire at Luna Park, which from the EXPOSED program, must have been about a hour after it started.

Nobody on the south side of the bridge knew what was going on, there was no internet or even mobile phones back then to find out.

We decided to go to somebodies car and listen to the radio, in which we sat there for about 45 min before anything came over the news.

I remember we all went home feeling sad, which is strange, because none of us had heard that people had been killed in the fire at the time, that hadn't been revealed on the Radio news we heard.

 

Before I worked at the place at Circular Quay, I used to work at a place that used to have all the socialites, gangsters, crooks, politicians, bookies, trainers, jockeys and police visit, frequently.

I worked there for around 5 years, so I got to know a LOT of people [Which came in handy at times ]....Like being give the name of every winner at a major Sydney horse meet a day before.

 

Anyway, come a few days after the Luna Park fire, I got talking over a few beers with some of the underlings of one of the gangsters that I knew from my old job.

They knew exactly what had happened, as according to them, the same group had been hired to torch several other places over the previous three months [Will be interesting to see if the investigators make the connection ]

The only way these guys would know this, is if they worked for the person that instigated the fires.

 

Anyway, I'm guessing they have found that out, I'd be surprised if they haven't.

 

Once they reveal that, I'm guessing they will go into WHY ?

 

Simple, GREED.

 

The people running Luna Park had wanted to close it and redevelop the site for years, after much protesting their plans were vetoed.

After being vetoed It's obvious that they thought if there were to be a major fire, damaging the park drastically, there would be no choice but to close the park down.

They asked a ''MATE" to organize it for a cut in the sites redevelopment.

 

Basically that's the whole story WHY.

[Esoterica]

Interesting story but the last part doesn't pass the sniff test sorry. Firstly, the underlings you knew could have been making the story up. I'm sure there was a lot of that going on after the fire. What you said they said, anyone could make up. There's no way to verify. Also, I don't see how a fire would mean the park had to be shut down and what does that have to do with being allowed to redevelop the land anyway? I suppose they could have thought that they would be more likely to be given permission to develop if there was a major incident, but why were the cops implicit in the cover up? Perhaps they got paid? I don't know, but my initial guess on what happened, was perhaps these bikies that allegedly started it, were part of a gang the cops were on the payroll of, or scared of. Admittedly being scared isn't likely.

 

Whatever the truth, I'm looking forward to seeing the conclusion of the investigation. It's fascinating hearing from the witnesses and police and coroner's court people who were actually involved.

[Whites]

I watched it last night and was fascinated as well. Surely there would have been a lot of people who new about the cover up.

I am surprised it took this long to be exposed.

[ZEN MISTER]

I was disappointed that the programmers saw fit to bury the first episode late in the evening, even if it was a repeat episode. I found the history as it was revealed to be both enormously emotional and chilling. I felt so much for the families, and the witnesses who appear to have been terrorised into silence.

Investigative programs such as this are why the ABC should have its funding restored to a realistic level.

[Tweaky]

3 hours ago, Esoterica said:

Interesting story but the last part doesn't pass the sniff test sorry. Firstly, the underlings you knew could have been making the story up. I'm sure there was a lot of that going on after the fire. What you said they said, anyone could make up. There's no way to verify. Also, I don't see how a fire would mean the park had to be shut down and what does that have to do with being allowed to redevelop the land anyway? I suppose they could have thought that they would be more likely to be given permission to develop if there was a major incident, but why were the cops implicit in the cover up? Perhaps they got paid? I don't know, but my initial guess on what happened, was perhaps these bikies that allegedly started it, were part of a gang the cops were on the payroll of, or scared of. Admittedly being scared isn't likely.

 

Whatever the truth, I'm looking forward to seeing the conclusion of the investigation. It's fascinating hearing from the witnesses and police and coroner's court people who were actually involved.

 

Yeah the underlings could have been making it up as you say, but why would they?

It's not as if they were bragging and saying we did it, just to prove how tough they were.

 

As for the bikies, they were hands for hire, the bikies back then weren't like the bikies now days, they weren't making huge amounts of money making and distributing drugs like today, they weren't that organized for a start and there weren't as many of them as today either.

Bikies were used as hired muscle or for more nefarious deeds like arson.

They didn't have it over the police, they were used by the police.......make of that what you will.

 

I'm not sure on who actually owns the land that Luna Park sits on

But the owners of Luna Parks rides and infrastructure were saying at the time it was unprofitable, and they didn't have the money to upgrade facilities and safety measures, this went on for years, and was the reason Martin Sharp started the "Save Luna Park" campaign when they wanted to shut it down.

 

There were still a lot of crooked cops in NSW around that time and well into the 90's, the best known one was Rodger Rogerson who incidentally was one of the police that used to pickup the takings at my place of work back then.

If you had the right contacts you could pretty much bribe your way out of any sticky situation, or have something covered up, as in this case.

This is all a hangover from when NSW had a Robert Askins as NSW premier.

 

If you read the piece in the link below, you will see some names that will turn up in part three if the investigators have got it correct.

The Sleaze Lord mentioned in the article is who I suspect they will say was behind hiring the bikies to start the fire.

https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/arts-and-culture/sydney-1960s-corruption-the-problem-lay-with-everyone-20170430-gvvk3p

[cwt]

3 hours ago, ZEN MISTER said:

 

Investigative programs such as this are why the ABC should have its funding restored to a realistic level.

+ 1 Lets hope the government makes  zuckerberg and google pay through the nose for filching ABC news and journalism 

On topic ; I seem to remember the tenants of the high rises around luna park for years trying to get it canned as the big dipper was a noise menace and it was effecting property values .. 

 

Luna Park residents launch new legal action (smh.com.au)

 

[Tweaky]

15 hours ago, cwt said:

+ 1 Lets hope the government makes  zuckerberg and google pay through the nose for filching ABC news and journalism 

On topic ; I seem to remember the tenants of the high rises around luna park for years trying to get it canned as the big dipper was a noise menace and it was effecting property values .. 

 

Luna Park residents launch new legal action (smh.com.au)

 

 

Yeah, typical, I remember it well.

They build a block of flats behind a Big Dipper that has been there for 70 years before the flats were built, and then the occupants complain about the noise.

I mean it's not like somebody snuck in overnight and put the Big Dipper there after the flats were built.

Stuff your property value, they knew what they were buying when they bought the flats, unless the property developer lied and told them that removal of Luna Park was imminent, then it's a problem between them and the developer.

Besides, they already have all the noise from the traffic and trains crossing the Harbour Bridge to contend with, were they expecting to close that as well ?

 

Thankfully the NSW government has changed the laws regarding this sort of thing.

If you buy property that is near a established business that creates noise, you can't later go and make complaints about the noise and expect it to change, a sort of "They were there first - and it's not as if you didn't know what you were buying" sort of law if you like.

[Esoterica]

On 24/03/2021 at 5:32 PM, Tweaky said:

Yeah the underlings could have been making it up as you say, but why would they?

Make themselves feel cool and important? Get attention?

 

On 24/03/2021 at 5:32 PM, Tweaky said:

Bikies were used as hired muscle or for more nefarious deeds like arson.

They didn't have it over the police, they were used by the police.......make of that what you will.

Ok, that's interesting. See that is (assuming it's true, which I have no reason to doubt) the sort of info that can help form an opinion.

 

On 24/03/2021 at 5:32 PM, Tweaky said:

There were still a lot of crooked cops in NSW around that time and well into the 90's, the best known one was Rodger Rogerson who incidentally was one of the police that used to pickup the takings at my place of work back then.

I'm familiar with Rogerson et al. With your info re: the bikies, the cops would've only had one motive to organize it, which is money, like you implied. After thinking about it more, it's not that hard to imagine, although someone signing off on something that was likely to kill innocent children, makes it tough to believe.

 

I've watched the first episode since my last posting, which added a lot of context, but is very sad.

 

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[muon*]

Deleted...

 

Off topic.

Edited March 25, 2021 by muon*

[Tweaky]

On 25/03/2021 at 7:47 PM, Esoterica said:

Make themselves feel cool and important? Get attention?

 

Ok, that's interesting. See that is (assuming it's true, which I have no reason to doubt) the sort of info that can help form an opinion.

 

I'm familiar with Rogerson et al. With your info re: the bikies, the cops would've only had one motive to organize it, which is money, like you implied. After thinking about it more, it's not that hard to imagine, although someone signing off on something that was likely to kill innocent children, makes it tough to believe.

 

I've watched the first episode since my last posting, which added a lot of context, but is very sad.

 

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

 

Well look at the likely scenario back then, and the way I think it went down.

 

Sleazy boss has coppers in his bag, asks sleazy copper to organize fire, copper hires young bikers who have done this sort of thing before, bikers do job but fire starts too early [remember this was the last ride open before Luna Park shut for the night ], fire at Ghost train perfectly situated, if not put out, to burn down the old wooden framed Big Dipper [The heart and soul of the park]

Bent copper is more worried about his own arse than people killed, as obviously all his previous other dodgy deeds will be investigated , hears that refuge kids have given statements about bikers, has other bent minion police at station "Sort the problem out"

[Tweaky]

I just saw the trailer for episode 3

From the snippets of video shown, it would seem this coverup goes to the top of NSW politics at the time, with photos of the then premier Neville Wran being handed around.

 

Something I overheard two barristers talking about in the early 80's, both agreeing that they would love to see the piece of paper signed, was that Neville Wran had a agreement with the owners of the Sydney newspapers not to print anything detrimental about him, in return for him allowing them to run Bingo cards in their papers.

The Bingo cards in the newspapers were very popular at the time, as the prizes you could win were quite big, and I'm certain they were boosting newspaper circulation.

 

It will be interesting to see what is exposed in episode 3.

As if what I heard above is true, it could be that some journalists back then might have stumbled onto what was going on, but either their stories were quashed and never printed, or their editors had told them to work on another story.

 

I wonder if this series of programs stirs any actions from old journalists that might be able to meat out the story with some previously unknown facts.

[Guest thethrowback]

I have found it an interesting show but unless episode 3 has a major revelation, I'm guessing that the conclusion is going to be the same as Kate McClymont's investigation from 2007: https://www.smh.com.au/national/niece-links-abe-saffron-to-luna-park-deaths-20070526-gdq8gi.html

[Tweaky]

6 hours ago, thethrowback said:

I have found it an interesting show but unless episode 3 has a major revelation, I'm guessing that the conclusion is going to be the same as Kate McClymont's investigation from 2007: https://www.smh.com.au/national/niece-links-abe-saffron-to-luna-park-deaths-20070526-gdq8gi.html

 

Your link doesn't seem to work.

I managed to open it by copying the link in another browser.

 

Interesting that Saffrons niece Annie Buckingham made those statements.

I used to work with her back around 2003 to 2005, and quite frankly she is as dense as a plank of wood and looks like Chad Morgans love child with frizzy long blond hair and a enormous set of Bucky teeth.

I also used to work with Saffrons nephew Harold Goldstien more than 20 years years earlier [ I didn't know he was Saffrons nephew at the time, but word got around the workplace that he had a powerful relative who got him the job, as he never went for a interview for the position], he was a very strange bloke, he seemed very insecure and he ultimately got fired from the job because he couldn't follow instructions, the GM at the time said it was like trying to explain things to a child.

 

Taken from the ABC news website is a breakdown of what episode 3 reveals.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-30/police-claims-abe-saffron-behind-luna-park-fire/12321044

 

What happened is pretty much exactly how I explained what I thought went down in my post on Friday.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Tweaky

[Guest thethrowback]

4 hours ago, Tweaky said:

Your link doesn't seem to work.

 

That's weird because it is working perfectly for me.

 

More often than not people who are "dense as a plank of wood" speak the truth because they don't have the intelligence to lie with any skill. It is well documented that Saffron's business practices weren't squeaky clean and that he had "friends" in many places. 

 

I iterate that although this show is interesting, so far it hasn't revealed much more than Kate McClymont's investigation in 2007. This show might prompt further investigation, but it is doubtful that justice will ever be served as many of the key figures have died.

Edited March 30, 2021 by thethrowback

[Tweaky]

1 hour ago, thethrowback said:

 

That's weird because it is working perfectly for me.

 

More often than not people who are "dense as a plank of wood" speak the truth because they don't have the intelligence to lie with any skill. It is well documented that Saffron's business practices weren't squeaky clean and that he had "friends" in many places. 

 

I iterate that although this show is interesting, so far it hasn't revealed much more than Kate McClymont's investigation in 2007. This show might prompt further investigation, but it is doubtful that justice will ever be served as many of the key figures have died.

 

I agree with you, I suspect neither niece or nephew had that great a childhood, I suspect they would have been somewhat shunned by other kids growing up [at the order of the other kids parents] because of their association with their uncle.

Both seemed to live in their own little worlds from what I remember of them, and seemed awkward and insular, to the extent of you ended up wondering how their thought processes worked.

Actually it must of been after Abe Saffrons death [2006] that I worked with Annie, and probably just after the interview she gave, as I remember she came into work upset one day and nobody knew why.

A few days later a close friend of hers said she might have stuffed up a legal challenge to Abes will, on which she was relying on a favorable outcome, as she was pretty much always low on funds.

 

As for the show itself, it brings to light aspects of the Luna Park fire that a lot of people would have either known something about or suspected, but never fully made the connections.

More of interest in a historical context for those that did know what happened, those now in their late 50's early 60's at least.

 

One thing I haven't mentioned is the bikers involved in starting the fire.

Bikers by nature are creatures of habit, they hang with the same people all the time, and wear their own distinct uniform/colors if in a gang [or have their own LOOK as you might say], keep the same hair style for years etc.

The description of the bikers boots given by the kids from the shelter is what intrigues me, as very few bikers would have worn boots like that, they sound like the type sold by William Cooks boot maker in Oxford St Bondi Junction at the time, which were more calf length dress boots with a long zipper down one side.

 

There was only one biker that used to frequent Kings Cross that fits that description, it was a distinct look for a biker [and wore those type of boots religiously ], I can picture him walking down the other side of the street as I type this......The boots were a dark Claret red/ burgundy color.

Which makes me think things might progress with this story yet, as the biker in question, if still alive, would be in his mid to late 60's by now.

All they need to do is identify him and find him........I wish them luck doing that.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Tweaky

[Esoterica]

On 24/03/2021 at 12:41 AM, Tweaky said:

The people running Luna Park had wanted to close it and redevelop the site for years, after much protesting their plans were vetoed.

After being vetoed It's obvious that they thought if there were to be a major fire, damaging the park drastically, there would be no choice but to close the park down.

They asked a ''MATE" to organize it for a cut in the sites redevelopment.

 

Basically that's the whole story WHY.

Looks like you were on the money Tweaky, except for the quoted portion. It looks like the developers you mention won the bid, because of the fire and then tried to re-develop the site. 
 

According to this investigation, the other suspicious fires you mentioned were common knowledge.

 

Anyway, the most curious thing now, is who is Tweaky? And did he know Abe? Haha.

[LogicprObe]

 

I knew a lot of these people at the time..............and the time was a dangerous one.

[Esoterica]

So heartbreaking that all those people, who were mostly children, died because of the greed of corrupt and criminal scum.

[Esoterica]

39 minutes ago, LogicprObe said:

 

I knew a lot of these people at the time..............and the time was a dangerous one.

Would love to know how and what you know. PM if you're not comfortable posting publically.

[Tweaky]

56 minutes ago, LogicprObe said:

 

I knew a lot of these people at the time..............and the time was a dangerous one.

 

So did I, both on the Bad and Good side of this story, and I'm glad most of them are now dead TBH.

 

And to answer Esotericas question- I met Abe Saffron, but I was wise enough to stay clear of him, and the rest of his ''associates '' whenever possible.

 

I was surprised when I saw Rosemary Opitz on the program, a long time friend of Saffron, she is quite a nice person most of the time, but can turn extremely nasty in a threatening way if she heard you say anything she didn't like, a very formidable woman you had to be careful of when around.

 

I'm sure William Clarke - Corporate affairs commission report 1987, was squirming inside when Caro turned up to ask him questions.

 

It was nice to see the old NSW attorney general John Dowd, I wasn't sure if he was still alive, he's a very nice bloke.

 

Here's something to think about.

The company that took over Luna Park under Saffron was called Harbourside Amusements..... In the early 80's it was decided that the old rail mustering yards at Cockle Bay should be redeveloped, which it was, and opened by the Queen in 1988 ........... They called the redevelopment Harbourside- Darling Harbor.

 

Now this naming might have just been a coincidence , who knows [I'm guessing Laurie Brereton might, considering he was under Neville Wran -read his history in NSW politics before going into Federal politics]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Brereton

 

On the 6th of July 1992, four years after Harbourside was opened, a huge fire broke out behind Harborside at the old Australian Mercantile Land & Finance Co woolstore totally destroying it.

Just another coincidence I suspect

 

For the last few years, the NSW state government has been trying to take sole control of development proposals, where currently any large developments in the inner city area needs the approval of the City of Sydney council as well.

The long time Lord Mayor of Sydney - Clover Moore, has managed to keep them at bay, but there is a election coming up for the mayor position on the 4th Sept, and TBH I don't trust her main opponent, and previous running mate, Kerryn Phelps to do the same thing.....we shall see what happens.

 

The Greed continues, just the names of the players have changed.

 

 

[Esoterica]

Hey @Tweaky I didn't see your post before about knowing Annie Buckingham!  Watching a show about a crazy event is one thing, but to hear from people that actually knew some of the players is amazing.

 

I told my father to watch it and he was shocked by it, and also told me about Saffron being in the papers all the time back then. I'm keen to see him in person over easter to discuss it more in depth, and ask if he had ever gone on the ghost train ride etc. He grew up around Manly in the 50s-60s.

 

The story has always fascinated me. The thing I found incredible about the show was how they kept exposing all these people involved and had talked them into being interviewed on camera! Some only agreed to interview via phone, or not at all, but I think the vast majority they wanted (that were alive) they got, including the policemen that destoryed the phone taps etc. Former police prosecutor etc. 

 

The level of corruption is also shocking. I'd love to see more of those avenues explored, because this is just one situation of corruption to secure a property. God knows what else they organized. I know Saffron is infamous for being involved in unsavory things, but it's the stuff that isn't well known, or known at all that is interesting to me. What about the copper who said he saw the top brass meeting at a pub in Adaminaby! Bloody hell.

[Tweaky]

I wouldn't really call Annie Buckingham one of the people involved, other than being Saffrons niece and talking to a journalist about what she knew after Saffrons death.

She didn't really have any choice in the matter being a close relative.

 

I've always worked in either the Sydney CBD or Sydney's Eastern suburbs for 45+ years, if ever there was any truth to the ''Six degrees of Separation'' theory, it applies to me.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I used to work [actually it was my first ever job] at a place that a lot of these people used to frequent regularly, that's how I got to know, or at least know about, a lot of them......As in being warned to stay way clear of Neddy Smith.....which turned out to be pretty hard when you find out he lives just around the corner from you  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neddy_Smith

It's not that I ever set out to know the players involved, both on the Bad side and on the Good side, it's just the situation I've occasionally found myself in over the years, sometimes a bit too often for comfort in retrospect.

 

The thing is, among certain circles, some people felt so untouchable that certain deeds became common knowledge, either very soon after they happened, or very rarely, before they happened.

When you look at the sheer number of corrupt people involved that have been exposed by the program, then say multiply that by at least 10, you'd get a rough idea of the amount of people that knew about what was going on, as those at the top had to have people to carry out their plans.

 

It wasn't all doom and gloom though, I've also seen and heard some very funny things.

 

I remember a lunch with Frank Markovic [who was reputed to be one of Abe Saffrons bag men, I'd never met him before] and promoter Harry M Miller.[Who had served time in jail for fraud over the Computicket collapse, and had got the protection of Graham ' Abo' Henry whilst in jail, Neddy smith's offsider and enforcer]....that's another funny story in itself on how those two met in jail, see link below.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5932383/The-day-notorious-gangster-saved-Harry-M-Miller-three-drag-queens-jail.html

 

I think Frank was trying to get Harry to promote some dodgy looking mineral water that he was looking at importing, even if you just saw the bottle it came in you wouldn't have been surprised if it glowed in the dark once poured out, thankfully for the general public it didn't happen.......Anyway.

Frank was asking Harry who the woman in his life was, and Harry says nobody ATM, then Harry says to Frank, you know who I'd really like to $%#, that's that Deborah Hutton, do you know her?

Frank says yes, Harry asks can you introduce me ? Franks says sure, nothing can be simpler.

Harry and Deborah ended up being together for 11 years, and he made her a lot of money.

 

See what I mean about Six Degrees of Separation ?

In that one story you have connections between Abe Saffron, a somewhat disgraced promoter, a well know underworld figure, and a well known Sydney model/ socialite.

 

I've heard some really funny stories from those high up in Sydney's legal profession and Police force, but I better not repeat those, which is a pity, as I think you would wet yourself laughing at just how dumb some of these people have been.

 

[Guest thethrowback]

3 minutes ago, Tweaky said:

some people felt so untouchable that certain deeds became common knowledge

 

That's the part I find unbelievable. For example, the Dodger and Neddy didn't bother to hide the fact they had a very close working relationship, frequently dining out together in public. Maybe Sydney-siders were like Rosemary Opitz and considered it normal to see law makers socialising with law breakers.

[Tweaky]

1 minute ago, thethrowback said:

 

That's the part I find unbelievable. For example, the Dodger and Neddy didn't bother to hide the fact they had a very close working relationship, frequently dining out together in public. Maybe Sydney-siders were like Rosemary Opitz and considered it normal to see law makers socialising with law breakers.

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there, at least for the time frame involved.

The NSW Police force has really been cleaned up since those bad old days [ A close relative used to work in what was called Internal Affairs, now known as the Professional Standards Command]....there, I just gave away where I got a lot of my info from.

 

Actually there is a " By Invite only by another member" social club, that will remain nameless, that has 80% NSW Police force [A lot now retired], certain well known specialized crime reporting Journalists and well trusted friends as members.

Always good to catch up a compare notes with.