Questions about subwoofer in 2 channel system

[DT999]

OK, so I have very little knowledge about subwoofers and in particular their use in a 2 channel music only system, so thought I would ask the more knowledgeable members here for some insights and advice.

 

Firstly, and I know this can be a contentious question, do I need a subwoofer or is it likely to improve my system; I have read several threads here and on other Forums about a well integrated sub adding a richness and depth to a 2 channel set up, but I really don't know.

 

I currently have Monitor Audio Silver 500 speakers; these have 2 x 8" bass drivers in each cabinet and a frequency response of (-6 dB) 30Hz - 35Hz; my amp is a Rega Elex-R. My room is 8m x 5m but open on one side to a staircase and hallway. I get pretty good bass from my speakers, but will  still lower frequencies potentially provided by a sub going to improve things?

 

I have been considering something like an SVS SB-1000 Pro or perhaps a Rel T/5i as these seem well regarded for music and are within my budget; I don't want to spend too much initially as I don't know whether a sub will make a difference and space for a sub is limited. Are either of these sufficient to make a difference in my set up/room?

 

I am leaning towards the SVS; this has a 12" driver and a frequency response of 24Hz ±3dB, whereas the Rel only has an 8" driver and 32Hz at -6bB, which is no better than my MA speakers and according to Rel, prefers to be placed in a corner, which is difficult in my room. Am I missing anything here, or are there other options?

 

Another question is about how to connect these to my integrated amp. On this Forum there is a basic set up guide that says "connect the subwoofer in parallel with your main speakers. If your sub is near the mains, simply connect another pair of cables from the main speakers to the sub amp. If closer to the amplifier, you may connect another pair from the amp to the sub."

 

I am limited in my placement options for the sub due to room layout, being open plan to one side and with full length windows along the opposite wall. The only real option I have is on the front wall between, but close to either one of the main speakers. So to confirm the above information, am I able to connect the sub using speaker cable from one of the main speakers posts directly to the High Level input on the Sub? Can anyone see any problems in connecting in this way?

 

Any further advice/information/ guidance on how to set up and integrate a sub is appreciated.

 

Thanks

Derek

 

 

[GregWormald]

If the 6 dB down is at 30 Hz (as I would suspect) then you are probably getting a reduced bass response from at least 50 Hz.

In that case a subwoofer will add 'heft' to the sound and more reality to the music.

In regards to the details about models and connections I cannot comment.

[DT999]

7 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

If the 6 dB down is at 30 Hz (as I would suspect) then you are probably getting a reduced bass response from at least 50 Hz.

In that case a subwoofer will add 'heft' to the sound and more reality to the music.

In regards to the details about models and connections I cannot comment.

Thanks, your comments reinforce a lot of my reading on the use of a sub

[Guest DrSK]

It doesn't sound like you're down a lot. 

 

Depending on your amps current ability, and the power handling of your speakers, some EQ could go a long way. 

[andyr]

7 hours ago, DT999 said:

OK, so I have very little knowledge about subwoofers and in particular their use in a 2 channel music only system, so thought I would ask the more knowledgeable members here for some insights and advice.

 

Firstly, and I know this can be a contentious question, do I need a subwoofer or is it likely to improve my system; I have read several threads here and on other Forums about a well integrated sub adding a richness and depth to a 2 channel set up, but I really don't know.

 

Yes, a sub - or better, 2 - will (as Greg noted) add some richness and 'heft' to the sound.    My listening system is entirely 'music only' ... with 2 subs for visual symmetry - but also better control of bass modes.

 

7 hours ago, DT999 said:

I currently have Monitor Audio Silver 500 speakers; these have 2 x 8" bass drivers in each cabinet and a frequency response of (-6 dB) 30Hz - 35Hz; my amp is a Rega Elex-R. My room is 8m x 5m but open on one side to a staircase and hallway. I get pretty good bass from my speakers, but will still lower frequencies potentially provided by a sub going to improve things?

 

Absolutely it will.  Only after I got my subs did I fully realise just what I'd been missing out on for 20 years, with my big Maggie bass panels!

 

7 hours ago, DT999 said:

I have been considering something like an SVS SB-1000 Pro or perhaps a Rel T/5i as these seem well regarded for music and are within my budget; I don't want to spend too much initially as I don't know whether a sub will make a difference and space for a sub is limited. Are either of these sufficient to make a difference in my set up/room?

 

I am leaning towards the SVS; this has a 12" driver and a frequency response of 24Hz ±3dB, whereas the Rel only has an 8" driver and 32Hz at -6bB, which is no better than my MA speakers and according to Rel, prefers to be placed in a corner, which is difficult in my room. Am I missing anything here, or are there other options?

 

An 8" driver does not a "sub" make!    Go with that SVS - unless you can afford something that has a -3dB point of 20Hz or below.

 

7 hours ago, DT999 said:

Another question is about how to connect these to my integrated amp. On this Forum there is a basic set up guide that says "connect the subwoofer in parallel with your main speakers. If your sub is near the mains, simply connect another pair of cables from the main speakers to the sub amp. If closer to the amplifier, you may connect another pair from the amp to the sub."

 

I suggest this "basic setup guide" comes out of the HT crowd - as AVRs tend to prefer this "high-level" connection; music systems are better served with an RCA out to the subs, from the preamp - in addition to the output to the power amp.

 

But if your integrated amp doesn't have 'pre out' sockets ... you don't have any choice but to connect up the sub to your amp's spkr terminals or the spkr BPs.

 

Good luck,

Andy

 

[DT999]

52 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Yes, a sub - or better, 2 - will (as Greg noted) add some richness and 'heft' to the sound.    My listening system is entirely 'music only' ... with 2 subs for visual symmetry - but also better control of bass modes.

 

 

Absolutely it will.  Only after I got my subs did I fully realise just what I'd been missing out on for 20 years, with my big Maggie bass panels!

 

 

An 8" driver does not a "sub" make!    Go with that SVS - unless you can afford something that has a -3dB point of 20Hz or below.

 

 

I suggest this "basic setup guide" comes out of the HT crowd - as AVRs tend to prefer this "high-level" connection; music systems are better served with an RCA out to the subs, from the preamp - in addition to the output to the power amp.

 

But if your integrated amp doesn't have 'pre out' sockets ... you don't have any choice but to connect up the sub to your amp's spkr terminals or the spkr BPs.

 

Good luck,

Andy

 

Thanks Andy.

 

You have confirmed my thinking on the SVS. Unfortunately any sub that goes below 20Hz looks to be too large for the space I have available, not to mention WAF.

 

My amp does have preamp output, so can I confirm the best way to connect the sub is separate RCA cables from this output?

 

Thanks again,,

Derek

 

[DrTobiasFunke]

25 minutes ago, DT999 said:

My amp does have preamp output, so can I confirm the best way to connect the sub is separate RCA cables from this output?

Yep, that makes it very simple.

The sub will be receiving the same signal that is going to the main channels.

All that's left to do is adjust the sub's crossover frequency.  (This will filter out frequencies above the crossover so you're not creating bass bloat by reproducing frequencies already covered by your main speakers.)  

I have my sub set up like this, and the crossover is quite close to the lowest possible setting.  

[DT999]

6 minutes ago, DrTobiasFunke said:

Yep, that makes it very simple.

The sub will be receiving the same signal that is going to the main channels.

All that's left to do is adjust the sub's crossover frequency.  (This will filter out frequencies above the crossover so you're not creating bass bloat by reproducing frequencies already covered by your main speakers.)  

I have my sub set up like this, and the crossover is quite close to the lowest possible setting.  

Great thanks Ken

[andyr]

1 hour ago, DT999 said:

Thanks Andy.

 

You have confirmed my thinking on the SVS. Unfortunately any sub that goes below 20Hz looks to be too large for the space I have available, not to mention WAF.

 

My amp does have preamp output, so can I confirm the best way to connect the sub is separate RCA cables from this output?

 

That's my view, Derek - which I am sure is supported by a number of folk here.    But there is certainly a coven here, of believers who promote the "REL way" (ie, high level connections) as "the only true way to do sub connection".  

 

1 hour ago, DT999 said:

 

Thanks again,,

Derek

 

 

I assume this back-panel pic shows that:

• inside the case, the preamp section of your integrated feeds into the power amp section
• but you can take 'preamp out' in parallel with this (in order to feed to subs)?

If so - that's a great solution.  

 

There is, IMO, a better solution - which DrTF has not implemented - which is to roll off the mains at a frequency above their 'natural roll-off'.  This has several advantages:

1. by rolling off the mains, you reduce the distortion which occurs when they are reproducing their lowest frequencies - as loud+low --> maximum excursion --> distortion.
2. by stopping the mains from having to reproduce their lowest frequencies ... you give some relief to the amp which is driving them - so it is less stressed ... and able to deliver a better sound to the rest of the frequency spectrum.

However, you can't do this with your integrated amp.

 

There is a final point re. sub placement - particularly when there is just 1 sub.  This is ... you should have the sub the same distance away from your ears as the main spkrs are ... so that they are 'time aligned'.  In my 2nd system, the sub is located midway between the standmounts - but, if you do the trigonometry ... because the seating position is about 4m away from the standmounts, there's very little difference in the distance-from-ears between the central sub and each standmount.

 

In my primary system, each sub is about 1.5m further away from my ears than the Maggie bass panels they cross over to.  So I apply a delay to the Maggies in the miniDSP unit which provides the 4-way active XO, so as to time-align the Maggies with the subs.

 

Andy

 

[DT999]

10 hours ago, andyr said:

 

That's my view, Derek - which I am sure is supported by a number of folk here.    But there is certainly a coven here, of believers who promote the "REL way" (ie, high level connections) as "the only true way to do sub connection".  

 

 

I assume this back-panel pic shows that:

• inside the case, the preamp section of your integrated feeds into the power amp section
• but you can take 'preamp out' in parallel with this (in order to feed to subs)?

If so - that's a great solution.  

 

There is, IMO, a better solution - which DrTF has not implemented - which is to roll off the mains at a frequency above their 'natural roll-off'.  This has several advantages:

1. by rolling off the mains, you reduce the distortion which occurs when they are reproducing their lowest frequencies - as loud+low --> maximum excursion --> distortion.
2. by stopping the mains from having to reproduce their lowest frequencies ... you give some relief to the amp which is driving them - so it is less stressed ... and able to deliver a better sound to the rest of the frequency spectrum.

However, you can't do this with your integrated amp.

 

There is a final point re. sub placement - particularly when there is just 1 sub.  This is ... you should have the sub the same distance away from your ears as the main spkrs are ... so that they are 'time aligned'.  In my 2nd system, the sub is located midway between the standmounts - but, if you do the trigonometry ... because the seating position is about 4m away from the standmounts, there's very little difference in the distance-from-ears between the central sub and each standmount.

 

In my primary system, each sub is about 1.5m further away from my ears than the Maggie bass panels they cross over to.  So I apply a delay to the Maggies in the miniDSP unit which provides the 4-way active XO, so as to time-align the Maggies with the subs.

 

Andy

 

Thanks again Andy.

 

As I said I am somewhat limited in my available placement for a sub, but it will be between the mains, albeit much closer to one than the other, and almost exactly the same distance from my main listening spot as the mains, so hopefully I should be able to integrate this well into my system.

 

Looks like I now just have to spend some money and then do some more experimentation. 

 

Cheers

Derek

 

 

[Snoopy8]

Ideally, the room should be treated, but that is usually not possible in a shared space.  If space is limited, why not get 2 of these, assuming of course you have the funds?

https://www.svsound.com/products/3000-micro-subwoofer

 

Dual subs make the bass more even in the room.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not how low or loud a sub can go.  The key is properly integrating them to provide even bass in the room. 

[DT999]

6 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Ideally, the room should be treated, but that is usually not possible in a shared space.  If space is limited, why not get 2 of these, assuming of course you have the funds?

https://www.svsound.com/products/3000-micro-subwoofer

 

Dual subs make the bass more even in the room.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not how low or loud a sub can go.  The key is properly integrating them to provide even bass in the room. 

Thanks Snoop, although they look good a bit out of my price range at this time. I may well experiment with a single sb-1000 and if it makes a noticeable difference I might be able to move things around and fit a second one in down the track.

[cafe67]

20 hours ago, DT999 said:

Thanks Snoop, although they look good a bit out of my price range at this time. I may well experiment with a single sb-1000 and if it makes a noticeable difference I might be able to move things around and fit a second one in down the track.

I have a single svs sb1000 ( not pro) in a very simple 2.1 home theatre system Dali concept 2 book shelves , the integrated is an older luxman integrated driving the sb1000 via pre-outs. Used mainly for movies and occasionally music works a treat and plenty of bass. 
 

regards Dave  

Edited April 15, 2021 by cafe67

[DT999]

35 minutes ago, cafe67 said:

I have a single svs sb1000 ( not pro) in a very simple 2.1 home theatre system Dali concept 2 book shelves , the integrated is an older luxman integrated driving the sb1000 via pre-outs. Used mainly for movies and occasionally music works a treat and plenty of bass. 
 

regards Dave  

Excellent, thanks Dave. Looks good and somewhat similar to what I am considering in relation to positioning with sub near to the mains, albeit mine will be to the inside between the mains but close to one of them.

[Irek]

On 14/04/2021 at 9:32 AM, Snoopy8 said:

Ideally, the room should be treated, but that is usually not possible in a shared space.  If space is limited, why not get 2 of these, assuming of course you have the funds?

https://www.svsound.com/products/3000-micro-subwoofer

 

Dual subs make the bass more even in the room.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not how low or loud a sub can go.  The key is properly integrating them to provide even bass in the room. 

Agree with above, although I am in Rel camp.  

 Competition to SVS sb-1000 is  REL HT/1205 (for HT)  or T7i(for music). 

[lemarquis]

I have the SVS SB 1000 Pro and it is excellent as a sub blended with my stand mounts. It has really tightened up the bass and I can confirm it adds weight and scale that you might not expect...

 

I connect mine by speaker cables at the amp. If you have Pre out on the integrated you could do that too. Opinions vary as to which method is best. My speakers are no slouch in the bass department and for a long time I didn't feel I needed a sub. I had forgotten what a good sub can do and I think the SVS is a bargain for its quality. It also has an app so you can adjust things from the chair.

 

Go for it 

[almikel]

On 13/04/2021 at 9:51 PM, andyr said:

That's my view, Derek - which I am sure is supported by a number of folk here.    But there is certainly a coven here, of believers who promote the "REL way" (ie, high level connections) as "the only true way to do sub connection".  

I agree with @andyr's view that a low level signal to subs is a better option than high level speaker connections. to subs - given you have a low level/line level output on your pre-amp you should use it for input to your sub in preference to speaker/high level inputs.

 

On 13/04/2021 at 11:12 AM, DT999 said:

So to confirm the above information, am I able to connect the sub using speaker cable from one of the main speakers posts directly to the High Level input on the Sub? Can anyone see any problems in connecting in this way?

If you chose this approach, you would only be supplying the bass signal to your sub from one channel, not both - not a huge deal, as at sub frequencies (say <80Hz) the signal is mostly mono anyway...but better to have the sub fed by a stereo input, which would be achieved using the line out on your pre-amp.

 

On 13/04/2021 at 1:10 PM, GregWormald said:

If the 6 dB down is at 30 Hz (as I would suspect) then you are probably getting a reduced bass response from at least 50 Hz.

In that case a subwoofer will add 'heft' to the sound and more reality to the music.

I agree with this - a well integrated sub is not noticeable - you should never be able to locate it by ear - it just adds "weight" and "depth" to the room sound.

You should only notice a lack in the bottom octave when the sub is turned off.

 

On 13/04/2021 at 11:12 AM, DT999 said:

Firstly, and I know this can be a contentious question, do I need a subwoofer or is it likely to improve my system; I have read several threads here and on other Forums about a well integrated sub adding a richness and depth to a 2 channel set up, but I really don't know.

IMO, 1 or more subs when well integrated, will always improve the "in room" sound.

Main speakers need to be placed to get the best imaging - which is rarely the best placement for bass sources to achieve the smoothest "in room" bass.

Running a sub or subs allows placement of the subs to achieve the smoothest bass in the room.

 

But achieving great sub integration is not trivial

On 14/04/2021 at 9:32 AM, Snoopy8 said:

Dual subs make the bass more even in the room.  Contrary to popular belief, it is not how low or loud a sub can go.  The key is properly integrating them to provide even bass in the room. 

I agree with this

 

On 13/04/2021 at 9:51 PM, andyr said:

There is, IMO, a better solution - which DrTF has not implemented - which is to roll off the mains at a frequency above their 'natural roll-off'. 

That's one solution, but another would be to have the sub augment the speakers' response where they naturally roll off.

 

Unfortunately you can't determine the best approach without a measurement rig to measure the room.

 

I would go with the SVS SB-1000 Pro connected via RCA from your pre-amp, and if you're keen to understand your room response get a measurement rig (Umike + mic stand + laptop running REW (free))

 

cheers

Mike

[almikel]

On 15/04/2021 at 1:01 PM, cafe67 said:

I have a single svs sb1000 ( not pro) in a very simple 2.1 home theatre system Dali concept 2 book shelves , the integrated is an older luxman integrated driving the sb1000 via pre-outs. Used mainly for movies and occasionally music works a treat and plenty of bass. 
 

regards Dave  

in my next life I may have a room that tidy...

[DT999]

15 hours ago, lemarquis said:

I have the SVS SB 1000 Pro and it is excellent as a sub blended with my stand mounts. It has really tightened up the bass and I can confirm it adds weight and scale that you might not expect...

 

I connect mine by speaker cables at the amp. If you have Pre out on the integrated you could do that too. Opinions vary as to which method is best. My speakers are no slouch in the bass department and for a long time I didn't feel I needed a sub. I had forgotten what a good sub can do and I think the SVS is a bargain for its quality. It also has an app so you can adjust things from the chair.

 

Go for it 

Thanks for the confirmation, I  have an sb 1000 on the way!

[DT999]

10 hours ago, almikel said:

I agree with @andyr's view that a low level signal to subs is a better option than high level speaker connections. to subs - given you have a low level/line level output on your pre-amp you should use it for input to your sub in preference to speaker/high level inputs.

 

If you chose this approach, you would only be supplying the bass signal to your sub from one channel, not both - not a huge deal, as at sub frequencies (say <80Hz) the signal is mostly mono anyway...but better to have the sub fed by a stereo input, which would be achieved using the line out on your pre-amp.

 

I agree with this - a well integrated sub is not noticeable - you should never be able to locate it by ear - it just adds "weight" and "depth" to the room sound.

You should only notice a lack in the bottom octave when the sub is turned off.

 

IMO, 1 or more subs when well integrated, will always improve the "in room" sound.

Main speakers need to be placed to get the best imaging - which is rarely the best placement for bass sources to achieve the smoothest "in room" bass.

Running a sub or subs allows placement of the subs to achieve the smoothest bass in the room.

 

But achieving great sub integration is not trivial

I agree with this

 

That's one solution, but another would be to have the sub augment the speakers' response where they naturally roll off.

 

Unfortunately you can't determine the best approach without a measurement rig to measure the room.

 

I would go with the SVS SB-1000 Pro connected via RCA from your pre-amp, and if you're keen to understand your room response get a measurement rig (Umike + mic stand + laptop running REW (free))

 

cheers

Mike

Thanks Mike, I have taken advice to try the RCA from pre amp and have ordered appropriate cables from Bill. 

Cheers

Derek

[andyr]

You said this, Mike:

 

11 hours ago, almikel said:

 

That's one solution, but another would be to have the sub augment the speakers' response where they naturally roll off.

 

 

... but you didn't include the rest of my comment which explained why, IMO, "augmentation" is not the best ...

 

"There is, IMO, a better solution - which DrTF has not implemented - which is to roll off the mains at a frequency above their 'natural roll-off'.  This has several advantages:

1. by rolling off the mains, you reduce the distortion which occurs when they are reproducing their lowest frequencies - as loud+low --> maximum excursion --> distortion.
2. by stopping the mains from having to reproduce their lowest frequencies ... you give some relief to the amp which is driving them - so it is less stressed ... and able to deliver a better sound to the rest of the frequency spectrum.

However, you can't do this with your integrated amp."

 

 

Andy

 

[STROP]

4 hours ago, DT999 said:

have taken advice to try the RCA from pre amp and have ordered appropriate cables

As bass is a mono signal wouldn't you need only one RCA cable from the Pre out to your sub?

[Snoopy8]

14 minutes ago, STROP said:

As bass is a mono signal wouldn't you need only one RCA cable from the Pre out to your sub?

The preouts will output the left and right signals, not mono.  The sub should add the signals and convert to mono.

[STROP]

3 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The preouts will output the left and right signals, not mono.  The sub should add the signals and convert to mono.

Thanks for that info, was having a heated discussion with a family member about this.

One last question, would adding a Y splitter after the Pre outs be a better solution?

[Snoopy8]

3 minutes ago, STROP said:

One last question, would adding a Y splitter after the Pre outs be a better solution?

I assume you are trying to add the left and right signals to mono???  Have a read of this:

http://silentsky.net/wordpress/archives/624