Ittaku Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: What people misunderstand about the energy cost to run a "proof of work" network (like bitcoin, for example) ... is that bitcoin has been "knee-capped" by it's developers... so it doesn't work the way it was designed. Skipping all the bits about what they broke, and what effect that has ...... we end up with a result where the energy use of the network, follows the price of the asset. The more expensive bitcoin gets, the more energy miners may risk expending. It doesn't matter how few or many transactions or services are offered... only the price. Without this "breakage" ..... the energy expenditure "arms race" is much much more muted ..... and, transaction capacity (and the possible services that can be offered) .... tends towards infinity. So, while you may use a lot of energy to run the network .... but it replaces everything. The blockchain at small scale is non-sensical.... The blockchain at vast scale, may be the most efficient "public" distributed computing system that can be invented. You lose the ability to maintain a truly distributed decentralised blockchain if you make it massively large. It'll end up in a handful of massive datacentres only, much like the very broken Ethereum is today. If you can't see the advantage of having a truly decentralised verifiable blockchain from scratch for everyone, then you're missing one of the major points. That it has gravitated towards being only a store of value may be bad in YOUR eyes, but the public has spoken - that is what they want MOST from a cryptocurrency; every other cryptocurrency can lay claim to a gazillion features but when it comes down to it, all that people care about is how good a store of value it is.
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: You lose the ability to maintain a truly distributed decentralised blockchain if you make it massively large. This is completely untrue. 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: It'll end up in a handful of massive datacentres only This is just what Satoshi Nakamoto said would happen. What is the problem with that? (Hint: What most people say is the problem, is not at all a problem). What most people misunderstand, is that people "running their own nodes at home" .... are not really running effective nodes. Nodes contribute to the network by finding blocks. When you do not find blocks, you have no say. At best what you can do, is choose to not participate (if you, for example, found a block or a transaction which was invalid). Users do not need to run nodes. Section 8 of the bitcoin whitepaper (very poorly) shows how it's supposed to be used. The internet is full of people saying that "you need to be able to run a node to keep the system secure / decentralised / free / whatever". Make no mistake that these people are one of two things .... morons, or misleading. 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: much like the very broken Ethereum is today. Ethereum isn't broken due to it running in data centres (etc.) It is broken due to it's fundamenatal underlying design (all nodes replicate all state), with short block times. 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: If you can't see the advantage of having a truly decentralised verifiable blockchain from scratch for everyone 100%.... but. You don't need to avoid the "datacentres" issue... for this to be true. The major breakthrough of bitcoin/blockchain.... is that is allows the "it goes to datacentres" to be done safely (ie. without the "trusted 3rd party" having control). The people telling you that "it can't go to datacenteres, cos not safe" .... either fundamentally don'y understand the invention..... or have vested interests in that not happening (blockchain scaling). 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: That it has gravitated towards being only a store of value may be bad in YOUR eyes, It's isn't that it's "bad" .... it's that it: Ignores, the actual capabilities of the invention. Is fundamentally stupid "store of value".... the scarcity of a number in a database?! LOL. 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: but the public has spoken They don't understand what they are on about. In the short term this will create mania for projects which have no future. 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: - that is what they want MOST from a cryptocurrency A "store of value" .... good luck with that. A ponzi, scarcity, number go up ..... it may go up a long way, for sure.... but why will it stay up?! 40 minutes ago, Ittaku said: every other cryptocurrency can lay claim to a gazillion features but when it comes down to it, all that people care about is how good a store of value it is. Yes... people only care about that, because that is all they understand that it "can do" (lol). Once products and services are offered which leverage the capabilities of the blockchain (let's hope this actually happens, there are yet hurdles) .... then people will use them. Just like things built on the internet .... they won't really understand or care much about the underlying.... as long it has suitable properties.
Ittaku Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 Yeah nah, have fun. I'm out of this discussion. What would I know about bitcoin?
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 28 minutes ago, Ittaku said: What would I know about bitcoin? Evidently, little. Although to be fair, there is a sea of misinformation out there.
Ittaku Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Evidently, little. Although to be fair, there is a sea of misinformation out there. I said I'm out, why are you quoting me to bring me back in? But you've offended me now. Just be aware that the vast majority of the 8000 odd cryptocurrencies out there mine using variants of my software. 1
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 Just now, Ittaku said: why are you quoting me to bring me back in? You asked a question. Just now, Ittaku said: Just be aware that the vast majority of the 8000 odd cryptocurrencies out there mine using variants of my software. Which software? I ran a few hundred GPUs for a few years, so am fairly familiar with software used in PoW. ("the vast majority of 8000", would I guess, need to make it a pool protocol .... but even then. This would be split down the PoW, PoS lines.... and so still wouldn't cover the majority of 8000...... genuinely interested in what it could be) ... but it does not mean you are not wrong about what you said.
Ittaku Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said: You asked a question. Which software? I ran a few hundred GPUs for a few years, so am fairly familiar with software used in PoW. ("the vast majority of 8000", would I guess, need to make it a pool protocol .... but even then. This would be split down the PoW, PoS lines.... and so still wouldn't cover the majority of 8000...... genuinely interested in what it could be) ... but it does not mean you are not wrong about what you said. Cgminer. 1
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 Just now, Ittaku said: Cgminer. I see. gg. "the vast majority of 8000"
Ittaku Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said: I see. gg. "the vast majority of 8000" Having fun here? Everything started as a fork from cgminer which I began developing the month after Satoshi disappeared in 2011. But I sense your sarcasm and know what list to put you on to save my own sanity and not accidentally keep following this topic and have to unfollow it repeatedly.
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Ittaku said: I sense your sarcasm You sense wrong. I stand by every word above with 100% sincerity. It was "good going" of you to have developed cgminer (you must be v. pleased). Quote Everything started as a fork from cgminer Although I wasn't a SHA256 miner.... I'm aware. Quote and know what list to put you on to save my own sanity and not accidentally keep following this topic and have to unfollow it repeatedly. If you think that (I'll paraphrase) that "everyone needs to run a node so bitcoin can be decentralised" .... then I'd urge you to consider that stance a lot more deeply. It's complete nonsense. Anyways... I sense you won't .... so hopefully we can see it play out (cos the UTXO model blockchain is useless if it doesn't get big) Edited May 26, 2021 by davewantsmoore
muon* Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 Looks like the ATO is onto the Cypto. https://www.businessinsider.com.au/ato-cryptocurrency-eofy-2021-5 I still see the whole Crypto Currency thing as weird, some nerd says, lets make up an imaginary money and become rich. I guess It's easier than working for real money. Silly me throw out all my monopoly money years ago I guess I don't understand any part of it. 1
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, muon* said: imaginary money "money" (ie. keeping track of who has what) is the most cave-man "banging two rocks together" kind of thing that the technology allows. Like "sending a message" is the most cave-man like thing you can do once two computers are connected together. It is possible that the blockchain (the bitcoin protocol) will change the way that a lot, perhaps even most, computing, communication, and storage of information, is done. 1
muon* Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: "money" (ie. keeping track of who has what) is the most cave-man "banging two rocks together" kind of thing that the technology allows. Like "sending a message" is the most cave-man like thing you can do once two computers are connected together. It is possible that the blockchain (the bitcoin protocol) will change the way that a lot, perhaps even most, computing, communication, and storage of information, is done. Yeah...nah, I'm still just as clueless how this can reap real cash and goods
davewantsmoore Posted May 26, 2021 Posted May 26, 2021 40 minutes ago, muon* said: Yeah...nah, I'm still just as clueless how this can reap real cash and goods Thinking about it as “money” is perhaps a bit misleading for the how/why. It’s not something that many people will need to understand deeply ... like most people don’t really know much about how the internet works, or law, or finance, etc .... they just use products and services based on those things.
oztheatre Posted May 28, 2021 Author Posted May 28, 2021 On 26/05/2021 at 10:03 AM, davewantsmoore said: Number go up? Probably (so I can't say "don't buy") .... but global scalable / flexible blockchain. No. DAG like behaviour is probably more important.... than "does it look like a blockchain". Ultimately, most people miss the scalability aspect of the technology.... and end up with solutions which cannot scale big/wide enough. Like the internet mania of the 80s and 90s...... in a while, all of the goings on today are going to look pretty silly and quaint IMVHO. Have a look at their whitepaper and updates, it seems very impressive to me. horizontally laid, goes faster the harder it's pushed. but do they sacrifice security for speed? I don't profess to know but the whole world, all at once, running all apps, on their platform and it doesn't break a sweat.. it's an extremely bold claim.. and this is what they're claiming and showing.. But its not blockchain, it's more efficient, so they claim, but what they show is pretty impressive. Their coder here demonstrates cross sharded atomic composability for the first time.
davewantsmoore Posted May 28, 2021 Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, oztheatre said: Have a look at their whitepaper and updates, it seems very impressive to me. horizontally laid, goes faster the harder it's pushed. but do they sacrifice security for speed? I don't profess to know but the whole world, all at once, running all apps, on their platform and it doesn't break a sweat.. it's an extremely bold claim Not at all a bold claim... but it needs to scale much (!!!) further, and that is a problem which is already solved. The blockchain to be truly scalable (to vast capacities.... think like 10 trillion transactions per second or something "crazy") it needs to work in a way where you and I can send transactions back and forth between each other (passing them between each other like "cash"), and only settle the "result" (or a checkpoint, or whatever is needed periodically) on the blockchain.... and, we need to be able to do this when we are not necessarily connected to the network (you can do this with bitcoin). Radix are using "sharding" to achieve their scale.... which is theoretically scalable to a "very large" size..... but practically that technique is a nightmare. .... but there is already a model which is the transaction model is already "infinitely" "sharded" (without the problems) .... and can be used to program anything (not just "defi"). It's bitcoin. We'll see anyways. As I said, number go up. Edited May 28, 2021 by davewantsmoore 1
zog Posted June 9, 2021 Posted June 9, 2021 I wrote some comments on this subject that I think I'd still stand by if I could find them in an earlier thread - but the thread appears to have vanished without a trace :-) is it worth trying to repeat them? :-) 2
davewantsmoore Posted June 11, 2021 Posted June 11, 2021 On 09/06/2021 at 9:14 PM, zog said: is it worth trying to repeat them? Of course...
oztheatre Posted June 11, 2021 Author Posted June 11, 2021 One trillion wiped from the market in 30 days. People got liquidated and people took profits. Went lower too about 1.35 trillion. A 50% correction. Where does this popularity contest go from here?
davewantsmoore Posted June 11, 2021 Posted June 11, 2021 5 hours ago, oztheatre said: Where does this popularity contest go from here? Blockchains which don't work have no value, and so go to zero, eventually. How far away is that? It is very hard to say.... A lot longer than many think, I reckon.... but I think the "end" will still be a sudden surprise which moves fast. 1
zog Posted June 13, 2021 Posted June 13, 2021 On 11/06/2021 at 2:13 PM, oztheatre said: A 50% correction. Where does this popularity contest go from here? This guy nailed it quite accurately, several years ago:
oztheatre Posted June 13, 2021 Author Posted June 13, 2021 ^ It always corrects or crashes yet always seems to bounce back. 11 years at 225% pa is a very impressive return, IF you have the courage to take such a plunge. Each time it crashed it went down 90% or more, but greed rules this world so always comes back. Will it do this forever? Not sure anyone knows the answer.
davewantsmoore Posted June 13, 2021 Posted June 13, 2021 6 hours ago, zog said: This guy nailed it quite accurately, several years ago: BTC will not go to zero when people believe it has value. There will always be people who believe it has value, until it is shown clearly to have no value. How far away that day is for BTC and Ethereum is difficult to say.... but. 1
aasza Posted June 14, 2021 Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) Some guy paid $69 million for an NFT.. !! That's one bloody expensive jpeg file. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/vignesh-sundaresan-known-as-metakovan-on-paying-69-million-for-beeple-nft.html Picasso's and Monet's have sold for less in the past. Edited June 14, 2021 by aasza 1
oztheatre Posted June 14, 2021 Author Posted June 14, 2021 1 hour ago, aasza said: Some guy paid $69 million for an NFT.. !! That's one bloody expensive jpeg file. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/vignesh-sundaresan-known-as-metakovan-on-paying-69-million-for-beeple-nft.html Picasso's and Monet's have sold for less in the past. How insane! We should sell glass jars of photons on ebay, might make a killing lol.
Recommended Posts