Dirac Live Users Discussion Thread

[davewantsmoore]

43 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

what to do between say 400hz and 5khz

It depends on what the directivity (response vs angle) of the speaker is... how far away you sit from it.... and how far away the surfaces are.

... and of course, your preferences and your recordings.

 

 

[Satanica]

On 18/06/2023 at 2:31 PM, davewantsmoore said:

It depends on what the directivity (response vs angle) of the speaker is... how far away you sit from it.... and how far away the surfaces are.

... and of course, your preferences and your recordings.

 

Yes, but I see this as a bunch of obstacles.

Because, most speaker manufacturers don't publish the directivity of their speakers.

And, it seems that most audiophiles and that includes those who use Dirac Live don't know about it.

And, if they do know about it they don't know how to interpret speaker directivity.

Which is why my advice is for those who don't know really know (and that might include me) and which is seemingly the majority to use it cautiously and thus a conservative curtain (less than about 330Hz).

I blame Dirac, they provide a strong weapon for those who don't seem to really know how to shoot because by default they open up a wide curtain when quite likely this is sub-optimal, anyhow.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Satanica

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

 

Yes, but I see this as a bunch of obstacles.

Because, most speaker manufacturers don't publish the directivity of their speakers.

And, it seems that most audiophiles and that includes those who use Dirac Live don't know about it.

And, if they do know about it they don't know how to interpret speaker directivity.

Which is why my advice is for those who don't know really know (and that might include me) and which is seemingly the majority to use it cautiously and thus a conservative curtain (less than about 330Hz).

I blame Dirac, they provide a strong weapon for those who don't seem to really know how to shoot because by default they open up a wide curtain and I think they shouldn't, anyhow.

Do you know if as a general rule professional audio calibrators and home theatre builders eq with a curtain or full range? I dont know the answer but I'd be interested to know becuase the one pro I have consulted has recommended full range eq.

 

 

[Satanica]

2 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Do you know if as a general rule professional audio calibrators and home theatre builders eq with a curtain or full range? I dont know the answer but I'd be interested to know becuase the one pro I have consulted has recommended full range eq.

 

I would not be surprised if most home theater builders recommended that general advice, because:

 

a) They don't know the speaker directivity of the speakers in the system and/or don't really understand speaker directivity or it's measured and audible effects.

 

b) When dealing with multiple speaker sets where there are usually Fronts, a Centre, Rears, Overheads etc. that are different speakers despite the fact they might come from the same manufacturer. These different speakers will have different directivity and placed in vastly different positions in the room. So having full range room EQ might on average deliver more consistent tonality between all the speakers than without it. In the case of stereo speakers this is a comparatively non issue, because the left and right will be the same speaker albeit with minor tolerance differences.

 

I run only 4 speakers in my setup and the fronts and rears are different from different manufacturers. But, they have similar directivity being well controlled and fairly narrow. So I run them with a similar curtain in Dirac Live and thankfully Dirac allows curtain per speaker or speaker group.

 

I'd be interested to see your Dirac Live measurements and I could offer my opinion of what I think the curtain should be and @davewantsmoore could offer his more knowledgeable advice.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Satanica

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Thanks Paul, looks like a hot mess to me but here are the before, let me know what you'd like to see from here:

 

5.1 Configuration

LCR Speakers are: MK Sound S150 Ltd

Rear Speakers : Speakercraft Aim1 8" Aimable Ceiling Speakers

Subs: Dual Rel T7, one in each front corner

[Satanica]

23 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Thanks Paul, looks like a hot mess to me but here are the before, let me know what you'd like to see from here:

 

5.1 Configuration

LCR Speakers are: MK Sound S150 Ltd

Rear Speakers : Speakercraft Aim1 8" Aimable Ceiling Speakers

Subs: Dual Rel T7, one in each front corner

 

The subs look pretty good and I would cross them over to the mains at between 80-100Hz.

 

Having the same front three speakers is such a good idea as shown here.

I don't think those that use "horizontal" centre versions of their mains would not get a response as close at that.

Regarding the front three speakers don't try to flatten anything above 10kHz; if you want to go wide range put a curtain at 10Hz or make sure the target curve follows the average output closely.

There's a bit of a rise at 3 to 8kHz which could cause a bit of more noticeable sibilance so you could try to bring that down a little.
I could be wrong but I presume this is caused by the speaker more than the room itself, it would be great to at least see on-axis measurements, but alas.

The bump at 1Khz could be speaker resonance because it is near identical in each speaker, so you could also bring this down.

Between about 300hz to 800Hz I would be hesitant to flatten this much if at all, because I think you won't hear it as bad as it looks, and it doesn't look too bad.

 

So, I would try a 300Hz curtain first and if it sounds too strong in the midrange then it to about 800Hz with a flattening or slightly down-titled target curve.

If it still sounds too bright set the curtain to 10kHz with a a flattening or slightly down-titled target curve.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Satanica

[Satanica]

On 19/06/2023 at 3:37 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Thanks Paul, looks like a hot mess to me but here are the before, let me know what you'd like to see from here:

 

5.1 Configuration

LCR Speakers are: MK Sound S150 Ltd

Rear Speakers : Speakercraft Aim1 8" Aimable Ceiling Speakers

Subs: Dual Rel T7, one in each front corner

 

Regarding the rear ceiling speakers I'm not sure but I assume that the raggedness to 1kHz is caused by the ceiling and not the speaker.

So I would set a curtain and flatten to about 1.2kHz, no higher at this stage because they are pretty good and well matched above this.

If they seem a little weak in the upper midrange and/or not matched that well to the fronts then set a curtain to 10Kz with a flattening or slightly down-titled target curve.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Satanica

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

2 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

Regarding the rear ceiling speakers I'm not sure but I assume that the raggedness to 1kHz is caused by the ceiling and not the speaker.

So I would set a curtain and flatten to about 1.2kHz, no higher at this stage because they are pretty good an well matched above this.

If they seem a little weak in the upper midrange and/or not matched that well to the fronts then set a curtain to 10Kz with a flattening or slightly down-titled target curve.

Thanks Paul appreciate the insights.

 

I was going to ask about the crossover, I currently have it set to 80hz and wondered because there is more response fro the speakers at 100hz whether it would be a better blend at 100hz (thoughts?). I haven't tried it yet.

 

Along the way rightly or wrongly I've taken on the theory that all speakers get one curve and the subs get the same curve, then the crossover deals with the fact that you dont want a 6db boost in frequencies the speakers cant produce (thoughts?)

 

Below are the curves I did over the weekend, just for initial feedback, ill do your other suggested curves a little later which by sounds should have a seperate curve for the rears now and post it to see If Im on the same page.

 

I have the 800hz curtain option done and will try that tonight.

 

[lucmor444]

Personally I would not use a curtain on the LFE channel but rather set low pass and high pass filters to manage the roll offs. 

[davewantsmoore]

On 19/6/2023 at 1:24 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Do you know if as a general rule professional audio calibrators and home theatre builders eq with a curtain or full range? 

Full range.

 

The tricks is to not correct measurements which should not be corrected ... or said another way, to not measure (or process measurement data) in a way which will show you things which should not be corrected.

 

If you measure things wrong (or process your measurement data wrong) .... then you have a case of GIGO.    Producing a correction for some measurement(s) is trivial .... but if they do not represent "reality", then the correction will (look perfect, but) sound "bad".

 

Dirac Live attempts to take care of these issues for you.

 

3 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

I was going to ask about the crossover, I currently have it set to 80hz

Yes, set it to 80Hz.

 

3 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Along the way rightly or wrongly I've taken on the theory that all speakers get one curve

Yes, that is what you should do.

 

3 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Below are the curves I did over the weekend

No.   Do not do this.

 

Your slow up and down of the target curve (even though it only "quite small") , is a very bad idea.

 

If you look at your uncorrected response.... it has big jagged up and downs in it.  eg. the response jerks up and down by 1, or 3, or 5dB over a small frequency range.    This is not very audible on real world program material (because it is over a narrow frequency band) ... when compared to a small rise or fall, over a large frequency range, which is very very audible (tone, timbre, harsh, colour, etc. etc.).    It is essentially an "area under the curve" type of thing.

 

What you have done below 200Hz is ok... there are psychoacoustic reasons for that.... but above there you should flatten your target curve...   and then choose some sort of tilt (down).   What tilt to choose depends on your speaker, listening distance and preferences a lot.

 

Something like the black line here.... raised below 200.... flat-ish to 1000 .... down from there.

 

 

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

37 minutes ago, lucmor444 said:

Personally I would not use a curtain on the LFE channel but rather set low pass and high pass filters to manage the roll offs. 

The curtains are the defaults set by Dirac where the frequency response drops off either side, I’ve never changed them.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Full range.

 

The tricks is to not correct measurements which should not be corrected ... or said another way, to not measure (or process measurement data) in a way which will show you things which should not be corrected.

 

If you measure things wrong (or process your measurement data wrong) .... then you have a case of GIGO.    Producing a correction for some measurement(s) is trivial .... but if they do not represent "reality", then the correction will (look perfect, but) sound "bad".

 

Dirac Live attempts to take care of these issues for you.

 

Yes, set it to 80Hz.

 

Yes, that is what you should do.

 

No.   Do not do this.

 

Your slow up and down of the target curve (even though it only "quite small") , is a very bad idea.

 

If you look at your uncorrected response.... it has big jagged up and downs in it.  eg. the response jerks up and down by 1, or 3, or 5dB over a small frequency range.    This is not very audible on real world program material (because it is over a narrow frequency band) ... when compared to a small rise or fall, over a large frequency range, which is very very audible (tone, timbre, harsh, colour, etc. etc.).    It is essentially an "area under the curve" type of thing.

 

What you have done below 200Hz is ok... there are psychoacoustic reasons for that.... but above there you should flatten your target curve...   and then choose some sort of tilt (down).   What tilt to choose depends on your speaker, listening distance and preferences a lot.

 

Something like the black line here.... raised below 200.... flat-ish to 1000 .... down from there.

 

 

Thanks Dave.

 

Good to know the majority of what I’m doing is on the right track, your recommendation of a flat downward direction line above 300hz is what I’ve been doing all along, the lumpy curve above was the first time id done it tbh. Surprisingly at the time it sounded pretty good.

 

I took the time to try a higher crossover tonight, tried 90hz and 100hz  and it definitely made the sound less dynamic and the bass wasn't as tight.

 

Re curtains, I’ve tried a few different curtains over my time, but after @Satanica suggested the 800hz I tried that tonight and I don’t want to get too excited too early but wow this just seemed to be the sweet spot, treble, mids and bass just all sounded much better. So much so that I think if it keeps sounding this good I’ll be lowering the bass boost just a touch as the sound is just seems fuller, how he predicted this is beyond me…….
 

I’ll take the lump out of the target curve at around 500hz and A B test that to the way it is now, but I’m really hoping that long term the 800hz keeps performing the way it did tonight as I’ve always wanted to try and let the highs remain untouched, gladly the room acoustics I’m almost finished with seem to be allowing me that luxury.

 

Thanks again to you and @Satanica chiming in, this advice has helped a lot plus @jamiebosco  taking the focus off my speakers and putting it on the sub bass integration has probably saved me money on a speaker upgrade that I’m pretty sure would have been the wrong one.

 

Fingers crossed things keep heading in this direction!

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Hi-Fi Whipped

[Satanica]

21 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

No.   Do not do this.

 

Your slow up and down of the target curve (even though it only "quite small") , is a very bad idea.

 

If one creates a target curve that follows the natural in room response which usually involves "ups and downs", then corrections are kept to a minimum, so the on-axis and off-axis response changes are kept to a minimum.

It might not be the best idea, but I don't know why this is a very bad idea unless the (anechoic) response of the speakers is so bad that the filter maker should try to make up for it with large changes.

I don't think the (anechoic) response of any of the speakers here is anything less than OK.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Satanica

[Satanica]

19 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Thanks Dave.

 

Good to know the majority of what I’m doing is on the right track, your recommendation of a flat downward direction line above 300hz is what I’ve been doing all along, the lumpy curve above was the first time id done it tbh. Surprisingly at the time it sounded pretty good.

 

I took the time to try a higher crossover tonight, tried 90hz and 100hz  and it definitely made the sound less dynamic and the bass wasn't as tight.

 

Re curtains, I’ve tried a few different curtains over my time, but after @Satanica suggested the 800hz I tried that tonight and I don’t want to get too excited too early but wow this just seemed to be the sweet spot, treble, mids and bass just all sounded much better. So much so that I think if it keeps sounding this good I’ll be lowering the bass boost just a touch as the sound is just seems fuller, how he predicted this is beyond me…….
 

I’ll take the lump out of the target curve at around 500hz and A B test that to the way it is now, but I’m really hoping that long term the 800hz keeps performing the way it did tonight as I’ve always wanted to try and let the highs remain untouched, gladly the room acoustics I’m almost finished with seem to be allowing me that luxury.

 

Thanks again to you and @Satanica chiming in, this advice has helped a lot plus @jamiebosco  taking the focus off my speakers and putting it on the sub bass integration has probably saved me money on a speaker upgrade that I’m pretty sure would have been the wrong one.

 

Fingers crossed things keep heading in this direction!

 

Yes, looking back at your data 80Hz seems like the best crossover frequency. Surprise, surprise because it's an almost universal recommendation. I use 80Hz between my subs and speakers.

 

Glad to hear that a 800Hz curtain is working well. It was simply made as one of the recommendations to try because your front three identical speakers have a fair bit of excess recorded in room energy up until that frequency and then it tapers down and flattens out quite well. I'm not surprised to hear that bass might sound too heavy now and could be reduced because you've reduced some of the lowish mid-range frequencies which will make bass more noticeable. I've come to be very conservative with my bass boost these days. I have four profiles of 0.0dB, 0.5db, 1.0dB & 1.5dB bass boost and most of time I listen with one of the first three. I think big (Harman like) bass boosts of 6dB are mostly a way to make your sound too fat and slow and at the same time reducing headroom. But I guess this is somewhat level dependent because if you listen mostly at low levels then a 6dB (Harman like) bass boost is probably a good way to overcome ours ears lack of sensitivity of low frequencies. Me, I use loudness compensation which is dependent on volume setting but I understand this is not easily available or desirable for everyone.

 

If it were me, I'd still try a separate curtain for your ceiling speakers to about 1 to 1.2kHz because of that large peak, although a 800Hz curtain would be alleviating some of it. I run separate curtains for my fronts (230Hz) compared to my wall mounted rears (280Hz) for two reasons. (1) My mains go down much lower than my rears. (2). The in room measurements of the rear wall mounted rears show peak(s) at some higher frequencies than the mains, presumably because of their much closer proximity to the walls and ceiling.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Satanica

[davewantsmoore]

16 hours ago, Satanica said:

I guess this is somewhat level dependent

Yep, and on recordings too.

 

We don't really know what the "anechoic" response of the speaker is, we only have this data, which depends on the room, distance, and measurement position, etc.

 

The low-Q difference in response in the speaker are not that good, with octaves that slide 3 to 6dB from one to the next.... this will be very tonally noticeable... it is also not a good idea to keep anything like that in a target.    It's why any target needs to vary very slowly (if it's not flat)......   unless there's something very specific/known being corrected (but that is much more a speaker-design-correction type of thing... than a room correction, thing).    It is (as it is often) hard to generalise too much, except tot say that a target will have a large impact on sound.

 

 

I don't think the data indicates one way or another with XO frequency.   80 is safe.

Edited June 21, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[franin]

Just with Dirac, I'm new to it; where do you start with master vol? Some places say to begin at 40db and set mic gain at 100%. I've also read the set master volume at 25db, just before the red line. I was so used to Arcg and Audyssey setting it all up that I'm just trying to gauge the best place to start.

[franin]

All sorted.

[GregWormald]

Hi all,

My Dirac 14 day trial starts today and I'm wondering if there are any hints or suggestions that I might have missed reading this thread. The computer and umik-1 are all set to go.

Thanks.

[BugPowderDust]

@GregWormald I was going to link to this but it's down right now. Get your levels set properly before attempting any measurements. It makes a masive difference to the outcome.

 

Also, if you don't have one, get a Boom mic which you can lock into position and don't rely on the little microphone stand that comes with the umik. 

 

 

[Satanica]

Dirac recommends Umik-1 is pointed upwards at the ceiling. Make sure you use the right microphone correction file. 

[BugPowderDust]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

Dirac recommends Umik-1 is pointed upwards at the ceiling. Make sure you use the right microphone correction file. 

Good tip. For the sake of being obvious, it's the 90 degree file.

[GregWormald]

Thanks guys. I think I've done it right so far. Still experimenting with the target curves,  and I will try another measure soon.

 

I had to expand the curtains so that I could roll off the bass below 25 Hz (speakers go to 17 Hz, I tried 20 Hz but it wasn't enough) as too many recordings had really low frequency garbage .

 

Turned off gain control as room changes the L—>R balance as the volume changes, and I manage that manually.

 

Bass has really evened out and now seems to go deeper and not in an overwhelming way.

 

150 to 3k area has been evened out and brought down a few dB.

 

There seems to be more detail in the music and a much wider sound stage. Nothing much else noticed yet. More listening to come.

 

Question. — I'm using the 'stand-alone' module on a Mac Mini. Does anyone know whether that captures all sounds out of the computer? I'm sure I read that it does somewhere and that would mean I could route the optical from the TV through the computer and get the Dirac advantages there too.

[BugPowderDust]

56 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

Question. — I'm using the 'stand-alone' module on a Mac Mini. Does anyone know whether that captures all sounds out of the computer? I'm sure I read that it does somewhere and that would mean I could route the optical from the TV through the computer and get the Dirac advantages there too.

It depends on your Audio Midi configuration and how you have wired channels into Dirac. It should be achievable though. A mate of mine runs his that way.

[GregWormald]

I had a deep read of the manual and all I could find was when the 'standalone module' is initiated you select the main output from the computer and then re-start to install it. At that point I would have nominated my only DAC so ...

 

I can't check without uninstalling 'cause the only control on the standalone is "on"—there isn't an "off", although I have found it off.

 

When it's running changing the output from the standalone to the DAC seems to make no difference at all.

 

I asked Dirac and they only referred me to the manual.

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by GregWormald
added more

[GregWormald]

Well, I've discovered more windows and instructions by just playing with Dirac apps and looking in unusual places! The user experience is not good.

 

(Mac) I have found that as long as the playing application is pointed at the Dirac standalone as an output, then Dirac does its stuff, and plays to the output that I selected in the Dirac app—my DAC.

 

So my local music, streaming, internet radio, and TV are all processed with access to Loudness, etc. equalisers. Audio Hijack was used to route the optical input from the TV to Dirac.