Denon AV Owners Thread

[desray]

MRC is tames the higher mid range and reduce some of it forwardness in the range of 1.5khz to 3khz.

 

Ok. I will experience myself when I visit your place next week. Cheers.

 

 

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[desray]

Dialogue Enhancer vs Increasing the Centre Channel trim levels for Dialogue clarity...

 

An interesting discovery which I think worth sharing. The less known feature called, "Dialogue Enhancer" under the Options is something worth exploring. It can either make or break. For instance, if you want to anchor the dialogue with more clarity, you can play with Dialogue Enhancer. Cycle between Low and Medium for starters to see which one suits you better. With this feature, you can do away the need to increase the Center Channel trim level. HOWEVER, I also discovered that at Medium to High setting, it not only affects the dialogue in general but also have an impact to the overall frequency response on the Center as well as the Mains (L&R). If you already find your speakers to be on the "brighter" side, then this may not be what you are after...instead, increasing the Centre channel trim levels proved to be a more viable option here. I have played with BOTH settings with LPF for LFE set at 100Hz (for greater clarity in the low end for LFE reproduction) and crossover for my LCR set at 80Hz and Dialogue Enhancer set at either Low or Medium setting and simply increasing the Centre channel trim levels by +1db to 2db. I discovered that "for my setup", engaging Dialogue Enhancer to "Medium" can be a tad aggressive for the front sound stage especially when you played concert material which is usually authored at a different level. This can exacerbate the sound on a bright and harsh end...Instead increasing the trim levels seems to more "even" sounding at the front stage. YMMV.

 

In the past, I have advocated the use of Audyssey's Dynamic Volume to get clearer dialogue and this is no longer the case after playing for the past 2 weeks.

 

Something for member's to experiment over the weekend...

[kaydee61624705921]

Dialog Enhancer FR posted by SouthernCA in avsforum:

 

[desray]

Dialog Enhancer FR posted by SouthernCA in avsforum:

 

 

As always...thanks for supplementing the response graphs...now we can see where the drastic change is :P

 

[petetherock]

This post from AVS is very interesting:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1574386-official-dolby-atmos-thread-home-theater-version-1842.html#post58343390

 

A few recommendations about crossover points and Audyssey, if I may:

1. Audyssey reads the point where the speaker starts to roll off sharply. This is usually lower than the speaker's -3dB anechoic spec just by virtue of it being in your room. If Audyssey is reading a sharp rolloff higher than that spec'd point, it's because of acoustic issues in the room. The only way to deal with that is by re-positioning, treatments, etc. to fix the issues. Audyssey = garbage in, garbage out.

 

2. Audyssey's software passes that rolloff data to the AVR to set system crossovers... but different manufacturers use different tolerances and headroom and may set things differently. Not every brand's software follows Audyssey's recommended guideline for this setting.

 

3. In-ceiling speakers may be rated to 50 or 60Hz, but may not be able to reach that extension once actually in the ceiling. If Audyssey is reading those channels at a much higher recommended crossover, you would usually want to address that with something like a backing box so that it has an enclosure to work with. Depending on your install, you can sometimes fix those issues with something as simple as the proper placement of a little insulation around the speaker. The area above your speakers can reinforce the low end... or cause your ceiling to act a phase-shifted passive radiator that creates a gap in the frequency response. But if Audyssey is detecting 150-250Hz rolloffs for 50Hz in-ceilings, that's a clear sign that you've got a little work to do above your room.

 

4. LPF of LFE should always stay at 120Hz if your goal is accurate reproduction. This only filters the LFE channel, which tends to be filtered during content creation anyway... but filtering it lower than 120Hz can reduce the level of harmonics that lend sounds in the LFE channel their perceived tone. Whether it will be a noticeable difference varies from person to person and room to room, but as a general rule, you shouldn't cascade the filtering done during content creation with additional filtering of that channel in your gear. The harmonics from the lower frequency sounds won't be significant enough in level to make your subwoofer easier to localize, but they do alter the way you perceive those sounds tonally.

 

5. Never set a post-Audyssey crossover LOWER than it was detected at. The range between that new crossover point and what Audyssey detected will essentially be unequalized, and worse, if you really do have an acoustic issue that is causing a suckout significant enough to trigger Audyssey's detection of the transition point, you are losing headroom trying to reproduce sound the speaker can't do efficiently in your room.

 

6. I've found that a good guideline for what you would WANT the crossover points to be is to take the speaker's lower -3dB spec and multiply it times 1.5 then pick the closest crossover point to this number offered in your AVR. This gives you a half-octave so you get a smooth gap-free transition from the point where the sub and speaker are reproducing those frequencies equally down to the in-room extension you get from the speaker. So if your speaker is good down to 40Hz before it rolls off, set it to 60Hz. If your speaker's good down to 25Hz, as tempting as it may be to set it to large, try it at 40Hz instead. Leave the heavy lifting to the subwoofer, where you likely have more amplification, and you will also get cleaner sound from those channels as a result. I see many say to set your crossover to the -3dB spec'd point, but a lot of times that can cause a loss of response during the crossover's transition because you're cascading the in-AVR filter with the speaker's natural rolloff slope.

 

7. I've also found that if your AVR provides a coarse display of Audyssey's measured in-room response for each channel, you can use this as a general check for what frequency you should be aiming for. So for instance, if I look at Audyssey's coarse graph and see that a speaker I expect to have a -3dB point of 50Hz is changing from below the 0 line to above it, I can tell at what frequency Audyssey is having to boost to bring it into line. And if that transition point is above the spec'd -3dB point, I know I have some in-room work to do to fix frequency issues. If that transition point shows on the graph at lower than the spec'd -3dB point (which is what you would ideally expect given room reinforcement), then I apply the 1.5x rule to the number on the graph where that transition occurs (i.e. where Audyssey goes from cutting frequencies to having to boost them). Again, the goal is to give a smooth transition from speaker to sub so that you aren't relying heavily on boosted equalization below the speaker's in-room capabilities. My half-octave rule tends to work nicely with the filter slopes typically used in system crossovers.

 

8. Specific to Atmos and whether you're hearing sounds placed well between the bed-level layer and the overheads: For the bed-level channels, you can easily verify cohesion of cross-channel pans using phase tests (i.e. test material that places sound 50% in one channel and 50% in another channel so you can hear if it images between those two channels). All things being equal, if your system distance/delay is properly detected and set, you should get good cross-channel transitions all the way around. HOWEVER, as the man says, a plan is just a list of things to go wrong. So here's what I recommend... After running Audyssey, setting your crossovers, and making sure DynamicEQ is off (because it plays hell with Atmos, as its development did not take into account the presence of overhead channels and how mixers might adjust that to give the intended results at lower volume levels than reference), play Dolby's LEAF demo on a loop. Listen specifically for the pans from bed level to above and across the room. If it seems like those transitions are going too suddenly from bed to overhead rather than making a smooth pan, try adjusting the distance/delay of ALL your overheads in small increments. More times than not, a relatively minor adjustment can snap that low-to-high imaging into place such that it works better across all of your seats. In other words, listen to the clip as-is... then set all of your overheads +0.1 foot and listen again... then repeat a few times... then go back to Audyssey's detected distance and try -0.1 foot increments. You will KNOW when you find the ideal setting... because you will hear that cohesive DOME of sound that we keep talking about here.

 

9. Another minor tweak for x.x.4 setups: Play the Helicopter demo on a loop and listen for cross-channel transitions between each overhead. If you hear the transition between each channel pair drop out or transition too quickly, try making small adjustments to that single channel to see if you can get a more cohesive pan between them. This is getting REAL nit-picky and may not matter to anyone outside of the MLP... but if you're in the MLP (and why wouldn't you be), you might as well strive for perfection there.

[desray]

All the points mentioned about Audyssey are all valid. Thanks for sharing with members here.

 

 

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[htfreak]

Finally threw in the towel and paid the deposit for the 8500 to replace the current 7200WA unit in the living room setup.  Will pick it up next week as I'm leveraging the current promo by trading in my Denon 2309.  Guess I have to set aside some time to read this whole thread from top to toe again.

[petetherock]

Finally threw in the towel and paid the deposit for the 8500 to replace the current 7200WA unit in the living room setup.  Will pick it up next week as I'm leveraging the current promo by trading in my Denon 2309.  Guess I have to set aside some time to read this whole thread from top to toe again.

Welcome to the club bro..

There's a promo? That's good

[desray]

Finally threw in the towel and paid the deposit for the 8500 to replace the current 7200WA unit in the living room setup.  Will pick it up next week as I'm leveraging the current promo by trading in my Denon 2309.  Guess I have to set aside some time to read this whole thread from top to toe again.

 

Welcome to the club :)

 

[htfreak]

Anyone here running a unified 15 speaker layout connecting to the 8500 that supports both ATMOS and Auro3D playback seamlessly?

[desray]

Anyone here running a unified 15 speaker layout connecting to the 8500 that supports both ATMOS and Auro3D playback seamlessly?

 

Do take note that although you have 15 speaker binding posts...only 13 will be active at any one point in time. I've not implemented full Auro 3D setup - just 7.2.4 (11.2 channels) at this point.

 

[htfreak]

Do take note that although you have 15 speaker binding posts...only 13 will be active at any one point in time. I've not implemented full Auro 3D setup - just 7.2.4 (11.2 channels) at this point.

 

 

I’m aware that only 13 channels can be processed at one time and have been analysing how my current 7.1.4 setup can expand to 7.1.6 or 9.1.4 with the addition of Centre Height & VOG to experience Auro3D.

[petetherock]

Anyone here running a unified 15 speaker layout connecting to the 8500 that supports both ATMOS and Auro3D playback seamlessly?

I wanted to initially but in the end I left it at 11 channels as I found little benefit

However do try and keep the noise floor low. I’m getting a lot more detail

Maybe it’s the 8500, and I think the lower noise floor helps

 

Try Riddick the scene where creatures walk on the roof

It’s not Atmos but you wouldn’t know otherwise..

[desray]

I’m aware that only 13 channels can be processed at one time and have been analysing how my current 7.1.4 setup can expand to 7.1.6 or 9.1.4 with the addition of Centre Height & VOG to experience Auro3D.

 

Wow...going full Auro 3D setup with VOG. You'll be happy to learn that X8500H allows you to do that w/o the need to forsake one of the SW Preouts for the VOG to work :)

 

Do share your experience with us when you implement it :)

 

[desray]

I wanted to initially but in the end I left it at 11 channels as I found little benefit

However do try and keep the noise floor low. I’m getting a lot more detail

Maybe it’s the 8500, and I think the lower noise floor helps

 

Try Riddick the scene where creatures walk on the roof

It’s not Atmos but you wouldn’t know otherwise..

 

True...If you listening space is small...cramping too many speakers may not be such a good idea after all. But having say that, if the X8500H allows, go for it and try it out to take advantage of it...if not good, just revert to 7.1.4.

 

 

[htfreak]

Wow...going full Auro 3D setup with VOG. You'll be happy to learn that X8500H allows you to do that w/o the need to forsake one of the SW Preouts for the VOG to work :)

 

Do share your experience with us when you implement it :)

 

 

It’ll take a while to slowly implement the holy grail setup that I envision in my living room. A 135 inch display screen with either Laser UST or MicroLED and a speaker setup that allows me to enjoy all immersive audio formats during my retirement years. Just like the MCU, i’ve only at Phase 2 now .

 

Phase 1 involved getting the height speakers in place that allowed for pseudo 7.1.4 listening and getting a OLED to temporarily enjoy 4K.  Phase 2 involves putting in floor standers with a competent AVR that can connect everything without dealing with external amps. Phase 3 will be the endgame with a proper TV console and the 135 inch display. Hopefully by then displays of that size will not need me to sell a kidney. LOL!!!

[desray]

It’ll take a while to slowly implement the holy grail setup that I envision in my living room. A 135 inch display screen with either Laser UST or MicroLED and a speaker setup that allows me to enjoy all immersive audio formats during my retirement years. Just like the MCU, i’ve only at Phase 2 now .

 

Phase 1 involved getting the height speakers in place that allowed for pseudo 7.1.4 listening and getting a OLED to temporarily enjoy 4K.  Phase 2 involves putting in floor standers with a competent AVR that can connect everything without dealing with external amps. Phase 3 will be the endgame with a proper TV console and the 135 inch display. Hopefully by then displays of that size will not need me to sell a kidney. LOL!!!

 

This part is confirmed. So no worries on that...and if you are going UST route, you won't need to.

 

 

 

[YANG]

#600H series launched!

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...COMING　SOON...

[badbad2000]

Finally got my x8500 back.

 

 

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[desray]

Finally got my x8500 back.

 

 

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Glad to know...what is the diagnostic for the network?

 

 

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[badbad2000]

Glad to know...what is the diagnostic for the network?

 

 

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Expected, only network module replaced

 

 

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[desray]

Expected, only network module replaced

 

 

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Good to know that there is no other issue found. Interesting, this is about the “first time” (for me at least) I’ve seen a Denon AVR been sent in for network repair.

 

 

 

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[petetherock]

Good to know that there is no other issue found. Interesting, this is about the “first time” (for me at least) I’ve seen a Denon AVR been sent in for network repair.

 

 

 

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+1

The Japanese QC is usually quite good, but if you sell enough, you will hit something I guess.. even a Toyota can have issues.. glad it's sorted.

Too bad they only offer one year warranty, but that's how lousy our consumer rights are in SG..

[kaydee61624705921]

My 8500 is a workhorse. Reliable all the time.

[desray]

My 8500 is a workhorse. Reliable all the time.

 

+1...Denon AVRs for the most part are sturdily built, especially those flagships made in Japan. Even entry level models also quite lasting in general.