Denon AV Owners Thread

[desray]

Yea, normally sent by someone, then he may do it.

 

But from my personal experience, it is not the component used, it’s the technology behind that provides the improvement. So you see if the DAC is a better one, better RAM, better implementation in subsequent designs, these will triump over a flagship model. (As technology picks up , so does experience and their implementation by their Engineers, whom by now have years and years of experience)

 

Example, I used to own a Denon 4520 flagship, then I came across a newer model, entry level 4200, the 4200 sounded way better than my flagship 4520. In the end I sold that 4520.

 

So u see, this batch, this generation, the 3600, 4600, 5600, this generation of Denons, will be very good . They got it spot on for this generation

 

If u asked me 8500 vs 6600, I’d go for the 6600, or the flagship model in this generation, 8600, if any....

 

Those using AVC-X8500H need not worry too much about the quality. Not ALL new models released will be superior than the old models. It really depends on the hardware and the engineering behind it. Granted while there is no in-depth review like Amir on the Signal-to-Noise signal and the level (%) of THD. I'm pretty sure that Denon really gave it all for this AVC-X8500H. Audioholics is an independent reviewing site and the biggest critic in the industry that go against the bullshit power ratings provided by AV manufacturers...even they give X8500H a perfect score - 5 out of 5! It meant something.

 

I used to own the last-gen flagship - i.e. X7200WA (which usually reigns for at least 3 years before the release of the next flagship) and I can attest to the sonic signature of X8500H is in a totally different league altogether, even X7200WA also can't hold a candle against it...First of all, this is a discrete 13.2 ch with 150W 2 channels driven at 8ohms load! This is something really hard to achieve for an AB class amp as "heat" is the biggest byproduct...those using this AVR should never ever place it in an enclosed area as it needs plenty of cooling for heat to dissipate...if you don't want your HDMI board to "fry" that is.

 

If you have the money for your next upgrade, I will say go for X8500H over the 2019 X600 series...the proof is in the pudding (in this case, listening). Audyssey or non-Audyssey room correction is a different topic altogether (need to get the Audyssey MultEQ Pro app and Ratbudyssey to take full advantage)...but if pound for pound in terms of hardware prowess, I think Denon showed us that it is able to flex its muscles if she is really serious about it...and X8500H is that "proof" at the moment.

 

:)

[petetherock]

+1

If you want a one box solution, with the top electronics AND good power, the 8500 is the current leader.

There are more expensive options, but the price gap is quite significant.

Denon and Marantz are also quite on the ball to keep up with updates and fixes, so you get pretty stable hardware.

 

There is also the endless debate on buying a cheaper processor eg using the 4500 and adding a power amp. Apart from the question on the quality of the pre-outs and processors, it also depends depends on what kind of power amp do you use. Adding a budget muscle power amp will give you something a little better if your speakers need muscle, eg 4 ohm designs in a large room.

 

However if you want better sound and do not need to fill an atrium, the 8500 will be more than enough power for most setups. Even if you have 4ohm speakers. Most of us have subwoofers which take the heat off the amp anyway.

 

But I would still suggest using a fan for longevity.

[ronildoq]

Whilst I agree it’s subjective, on many factors, i strongly believe even with the 3600 using external amplification, will give the x8500 a good run for its money, if one uses that internal amplification from the 8500.

 

These measurements are really effective and it’s really audible, you can see they affect the distortion in the DAC when internal amplification is used, bypassing it takes away that distortion

 

If given the chance, it would be good to AB , 3600 with external amplification vs 8500 using built in amplification .

 

Put it in another way, given the choice of using 6600 with external amplification vs 8500, id stil pick the 6600... of course that’s my personal choice

 

Definitely something to ponder if you are into Denon

 

I’ve read tons of Audioholics reviews, they don’t come close to what’s measured by this guy AMIR. His measurement techniques deployed is very accurate and effective. It translates to actual listening experience

[desray]

Whilst I agree it’s subjective, on many factors, i strongly believe even with the 3600 using external amplification, will give the x8500 a good run for its money, if one uses that internal amplification from the 8500.

 

These measurements are really effective and it’s really audible, you can see they affect the distortion in the DAC when internal amplification is used, bypassing it takes away that distortion

 

If given the chance, it would be good to AB , 3600 with external amplification vs 8500 using built in amplification .

 

Put it in another way, given the choice of using 6600 with external amplification vs 8500, id stil pick the 6600... of course that’s my personal choice

 

Definitely something to ponder if you are into Denon

 

I’ve read tons of Audioholics reviews, they don’t come close to what’s measured by this guy AMIR. His measurement techniques deployed is very accurate and effective. It translates to actual listening experience

 

Oh yes...agreed wholeheartedly IF X3600H utilize the same internal amp unit as the flagship X8500H (circa 2018). Then X3600H will definitely fit the best VFM of 2019.

 

If you want to pair X6600H with external amplification vs X8500H alone - of course I will pick the former (same as you) as it is not an apple-to-apple comparison to begin with. There is a reason why separates exist. :)

 

[ronildoq]

+1

If you want a one box solution, with the top electronics AND good power, the 8500 is the current leader.

There are more expensive options, but the price gap is quite significant.

Denon and Marantz are also quite on the ball to keep up with updates and fixes, so you get pretty stable hardware.

 

There is also the endless debate on buying a cheaper processor eg using the 4500 and adding a power amp. Apart from the question on the quality of the pre-outs and processors, it also depends depends on what kind of power amp do you use. Adding a budget muscle power amp will give you something a little better if your speakers need muscle, eg 4 ohm designs in a large room.

 

However if you want better sound and do not need to fill an atrium, the 8500 will be more than enough power for most setups. Even if you have 4ohm speakers. Most of us have subwoofers which take the heat off the amp anyway.

 

But I would still suggest using a fan for longevity.

 

The difference is when the internal amplifiers are used, it distorts the DAC. If you have the time, just do a quick AB, disconnect your internal amplifier, use a simple power amp for the Atmos. You should and will notice much cleaner sounding quality, just focus on the 7.1 and I believe you will hear the difference, you have very good listening abilities

 

Of course I don’t own a Denon so I can’t verify this. But the concept and logic hold firms, if the dac is distorted due to internal amplifier being activated, no matter how good the amplifiers, it is already receiving a distorted signal. So the first thing I would focus is to kill off this distortion from the source, avr , if that signal comes through clean to the amplifiers, then next question would be the quality of the amplifier. But the first part is critical, how clean is the signal out...

 

Just sharing , so you guys who own the Denon , can ponder and work to improve your set up.

 

Definitely don’t just follow the reviews, hear it for yourself to confirm . I have observed this guy for some years now, I can assure u he is spot on and unbiased person

[desray]

 

Just sharing , so you guys who own the Denon , can ponder and work to improve your set up.

 

Definitely don’t just follow the reviews, hear it for yourself to confirm .

 

Agreed! :)

 

[Boxerfan88]

Disclaimer: I am not a Denon owner.

 

I saw the assertion that the amplifier module will distort the DAC signals, which cannot be true for all scenarios.

 

If the AVR is very well designed, with solid power supply system that can hold the power rails steady, and the DAC is well designed with an independent DAC power supply, there should be little power supply induced DAC distortion due to amp power demand.

 

The only scenario where DAC can be affected is if the internal amplifier modules are driven way beyond what the power supply is able to handle to the point it affects the DAC power supply. But then the overload protection would have kicked in.

 

TOTR AVRs usually have very well designed power supplies, localised power regulation for the source modules. Some may even have separate power supplies for digital vs analog vs amplifier sections.

 

Rule of thumb that I was given to assess the amp capabilities of an integrated AVR - look at the total power supply capacitance inside the AVR, look at the total weight of the AVR, finally check if there are independant power regulation for digital/analog/DAC/amplifier sections.

 

The ideal would always be separates...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[desray]

Disclaimer: I am not a Denon owner.

 

I saw the assertion that the amplifier module will distort the DAC signals, which cannot be true for all scenarios.

 

If the AVR is very well designed, with solid power supply system that can hold the power rails steady, and the DAC is well designed with an independent DAC power supply, there should be little power supply induced DAC distortion due to amp power demand.

 

The only scenario where DAC can be affected is if the internal amplifier modules are driven way beyond what the power supply is able to handle to the point it affects the DAC power supply. But then the overload protection would have kicked in.

 

TOTR AVRs usually have very well designed power supplies, localised power regulation for the source modules. Some may even have separate power supplies for digital vs analog vs amplifier sections.

 

Rule of thumb that I was given to assess the amp capabilities of an integrated AVR - look at the total power supply capacitance inside the AVR, look at the total weight of the AVR, finally check if there are independant power regulation for digital/analog/DAC/amplifier sections.

 

The ideal would always be separates...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I've no engineering background but I know that much that it is the sum of all its parts that makes a good product. ;)

[chaozhoi]

The difference is when the internal amplifiers are used, it distorts the DAC. If you have the time, just do a quick AB, disconnect your internal amplifier, use a simple power amp for the Atmos. You should and will notice much cleaner sounding quality, just focus on the 7.1 and I believe you will hear the difference, you have very good listening abilities

 

Of course I don’t own a Denon so I can’t verify this. But the concept and logic hold firms, if the dac is distorted due to internal amplifier being activated, no matter how good the amplifiers, it is already receiving a distorted signal. So the first thing I would focus is to kill off this distortion from the source, avr , if that signal comes through clean to the amplifiers, then next question would be the quality of the amplifier. But the first part is critical, how clean is the signal out...

 

Just sharing , so you guys who own the Denon , can ponder and work to improve your set up.

 

Definitely don’t just follow the reviews, hear it for yourself to confirm . I have observed this guy for some years now, I can assure u he is spot on and unbiased person

I am using ext amp for 7 channels now leaving my AVR running 4 channels for Atmos duties. So which means I can expect a performance jump if I were to outsource my Atmos speakers to another amp?

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

 

 

[ronildoq]

Yes I’m sure, give it a shot. I haven’t personally verified, but if you can loan a 4 channel amp, just a simple amp, don’t need expensive amplifiers. Just simple ones that can drive the Atmos, then compare. I would love to hear your feedback , just honest feedback, doesn’t matter if it doesn’t improve. At least you know, swing from -15, -10, -5 on the master volume, u will be able to tell

 

Without any objective measurements and the numbers, it’s easy to say, this sounds nice, that sounds good. Problem with this is sometimes it gets confused with resolution vs sound signature. With the SINAD benchmarking done, I can see clearly the numbers, and how that translates to what I hear in the end

 

Let me share one more honest view I have. I’m using the Oppo 205 Sabre dac preout for 2 channel music listening. Even the lyngdorf MP50 cannot beat the Oppo 205. I’ve seen the numbers on the sinad for the oppo205, they are pretty impressive. I’m sure if Amir does a measurement, the lyngdorf mp50 will NOT beat the Oppo 205 for 2 channels for music. Assuming Apple to Apple comparison. Even with room eq, the Oppo 205 for music sounds way nicer , many other observation using the SINAD benchmark.

 

That’s why I’m confident, this batch of 3600, 4600,5600, whatever coming up next or 8600, is gonna be impressive. Not the 3500 model, but the 3600 model.

 

Best above all, it provides very stable firmware platform. It’s worth considering this batch generation Denon for HT use..

[petetherock]

I agree with Ron on the "well designed" processor. And that's the issue: how well are the output sections designed.

As for power, many power sections are not bad, with sufficient capacitance, but the bigger issue is Heat and the dissipation of heat.

 

The 8500 has barely 44000u for 13 channels. Thats just over half as much as my old SR 12 flagship. But cooling fins and fans make a difference, and the other chips help the amp harness the power in a better way. Heat can come from the power section, but often it's the HDMI area and other areas that can kill the amp.

 

Take the venerable 4810. Looks great on paper, but due to throttling, it quickly drops to barely 30W per channel when driven hard.

 

So yes, listen with your ears, and if the 3600 can perform so well, then it's superb value. Add a nice power amp from Parasound, Rotel or go all the way to the Mcintosh, and enjoy! Just make sure the rest of the system is up to it..

[ronildoq]

Btw, I’m not a Denon salesman :) lol

 

Just sharing my thoughts , if anyone considering avr, may wanna explore the Denons of this generation

[petetherock]

The use of a basic power amp to drive the Atmos channels is a good idea. That takes the pressure off the internal amps. Lowers the heat issue too.

But it does use more energy, so some folks might not like it.

I did it before, but in reverse: I use the internal amps of my 7200 to drive the Atmos channels and the Rotel I had then to drive my Dyns.

But when I got the Denon 8500, I found it to be sufficient to drive all the channels I had comfortably so I only use the internal amps now.

[desray]

The use of a basic power amp to drive the Atmos channels is a good idea. That takes the pressure off the internal amps. Lowers the heat issue too.

But it does use more energy, so some folks might not like it.

I did it before, but in reverse: I use the internal amps of my 7200 to drive the Atmos channels and the Rotel I had then to drive my Dyns.

But when I got the Denon 8500, I found it to be sufficient to drive all the channels I had comfortably so I only use the internal amps now.

 

I guess the litmus test will be to power the KEF LS50 :P

 

[rock123]

Yea, normally sent by someone, then he may do it.

 

But from my personal experience, it is not the component used, it’s the technology behind that provides the improvement. So you see if the DAC is a better one, better RAM, better implementation in subsequent designs, these will triump over a flagship model. (As technology picks up , so does experience and their implementation by their Engineers, whom by now have years and years of experience)

 

Example, I used to own a Denon 4520 flagship, then I came across a newer model, entry level 4200, the 4200 sounded way better than my flagship 4520. In the end I sold that 4520.

 

So u see, this batch, this generation, the 3600, 4600, 5600, this generation of Denons, will be very good . They got it spot on for this generation

 

If u asked me 8500 vs 6600, I’d go for the 6600, or the flagship model in this generation, 8600, if any....

 

I totally agree with u bro. its the new technology and chipset engineered and @launch for the new Denon series.

 

I a Happy man whom just tried Denon 4400 and owned by it's SQ, on screen Menu and Bass.

coming from a Flagship Onkyo 11.2 usage fan here. :)

[petetherock]

I guess the litmus test will be to power the KEF LS50 :P

 

With a sub or two in use, I reckon it should be fine.. I don't think the LS50 is harder to power than the Dyns.. but both will relish better amps..

I swopped out the Denon for a Cambridge Audio Edge A stereo amp, and wow.... it was so much better... but the stereo amp retails for twice more..

[kaydee61624705921]

Those using AVC-X8500H need not worry too much about the quality. Not ALL new models released will be superior than the old models. It really depends on the hardware and the engineering behind it. Granted while there is no in-depth review like Amir on the Signal-to-Noise signal and the level (%) of THD. I'm pretty sure that Denon really gave it all for this AVC-X8500H. Audioholics is an independent reviewing site and the biggest critic in the industry that go against the bullshit power ratings provided by AV manufacturers...even they give X8500H a perfect score - 5 out of 5! It meant something.

 

I used to own the last-gen flagship - i.e. X7200WA (which usually reigns for at least 3 years before the release of the next flagship) and I can attest to the sonic signature of X8500H is in a totally different league altogether, even X7200WA also can't hold a candle against it...First of all, this is a discrete 13.2 ch with 150W 2 channels driven at 8ohms load! This is something really hard to achieve for an AB class amp as "heat" is the biggest byproduct...those using this AVR should never ever place it in an enclosed area as it needs plenty of cooling for heat to dissipate...if you don't want your HDMI board to "fry" that is.

 

If you have the money for your next upgrade, I will say go for X8500H over the 2019 X600 series...the proof is in the pudding (in this case, listening). Audyssey or non-Audyssey room correction is a different topic altogether (need to get the Audyssey MultEQ Pro app and Ratbudyssey to take full advantage)...but if pound for pound in terms of hardware prowess, I think Denon showed us that it is able to flex its muscles if she is really serious about it...and X8500H is that "proof" at the moment.

 

:)

 

I'm sure Denon gave their best for AVC-X8500H for the money. This interview with the designer does say a lot.

https://www.denon.jp/ja-jp/blog/3868/index.html

As for the 6500, 4500, 3500 it's all trickle down from the 8500 to fit market segmentation.

Sure, 8600,8800 or whatever is next will definitely improve and I am sure another VFM MIJ quality AVR. Until then enjoy your 8500. :)

 

[desray]

I'm sure Denon gave their best for for AVC-X8500H for the money. This interview with the designer does say a lot.

https://www.denon.jp/ja-jp/blog/3868/index.html

As for the 6500, 4500, 3500 it's all trickle down from the 8500 to fit market segmentation.

Sure, 8600,8800 or whatever is next will definitely improve and I am sure another VFM MIJ quality AVR. Until then enjoy your 8500. :)

Need to google translate. [emoji106]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rock123]

Yes I’m sure, give it a shot. I haven’t personally verified, but if you can loan a 4 channel amp, just a simple amp, don’t need expensive amplifiers. Just simple ones that can drive the Atmos, then compare. I would love to hear your feedback , just honest feedback, doesn’t matter if it doesn’t improve. At least you know, swing from -15, -10, -5 on the master volume, u will be able to tell

 

Without any objective measurements and the numbers, it’s easy to say, this sounds nice, that sounds good. Problem with this is sometimes it gets confused with resolution vs sound signature. With the SINAD benchmarking done, I can see clearly the numbers, and how that translates to what I hear in the end

 

Let me share one more honest view I have. I’m using the Oppo 205 Sabre dac preout for 2 channel music listening. Even the lyngdorf MP50 cannot beat the Oppo 205. I’ve seen the numbers on the sinad for the oppo205, they are pretty impressive. I’m sure if Amir does a measurement, the lyngdorf mp50 will NOT beat the Oppo 205 for 2 channels for music. Assuming Apple to Apple comparison. Even with room eq, the Oppo 205 for music sounds way nicer , many other observation using the SINAD benchmark.

 

That’s why I’m confident, this batch of 3600, 4600,5600, whatever coming up next or 8600, is gonna be impressive. Not the 3500 model, but the 3600 model.

 

Best above all, it provides very stable firmware platform. It’s worth considering this batch generation Denon for HT use..

 

Currently using this setup 1. and 2 below.

 

1. Denon AVR-X4400H 9.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

running on 7.2.4

 

and

 

2. Onkyo Flagship 11.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

  Running 7.2.4

 

In the end, which route I choose?  Or which 1. or 2. setup I decided to go with . *Magic. :)

 

[rayleh]

Currently using this setup 1. and 2 below.

 

1. Denon AVR-X4400H 9.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

running on 7.2.4

 

and

 

2. Onkyo Flagship 11.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

  Running 7.2.4

 

In the end, which route I choose?  Or which 1. or 2. setup I decided to go with . *Magic. :)

 

 

You are keeping the Denon. I have recently added a stereo amp (150W) for the mains (just to try out) and I can hear more details indeed. Now I am tempted to add 3 channels amp for the front and let the stereo amp power the surround. Anyone can advise if I can mix Class A/B amp with Class D amp?

[whitesox]

Currently using this setup 1. and 2 below.

 

1. Denon AVR-X4400H 9.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

running on 7.2.4

 

and

 

2. Onkyo Flagship 11.2 AVR Preout to Fronts (L &R) via my Sunfire 5 channel power amp

  Running 7.2.4

 

In the end, which route I choose?  Or which 1. or 2. setup I decided to go with . *Magic. :)

 

If Onkyo uses XT32, I will definitely keep it ;D

 

Nevertheless, you should listen to which brand will match nicely with your speakers and satisfy you ears.

Considering also the room correction.. if you know how to 'tune and tweak' so you should begin with your Onkyo first... REW it then gets the best result before you can compare with Denon.

You make a call bro...  ;)

 

 

[rock123]

+1

If you want a one box solution, with the top electronics AND good power, the 8500 is the current leader.

There are more expensive options, but the price gap is quite significant.

Denon and Marantz are also quite on the ball to keep up with updates and fixes, so you get pretty stable hardware.

 

There is also the endless debate on buying a cheaper processor eg using the 4500 and adding a power amp. Apart from the question on the quality of the pre-outs and processors, it also depends depends on what kind of power amp do you use. Adding a budget muscle power amp will give you something a little better if your speakers need muscle, eg 4 ohm designs in a large room.

 

However if you want better sound and do not need to fill an atrium, the 8500 will be more than enough power for most setups. Even if you have 4ohm speakers. Most of us have subwoofers which take the heat off the amp anyway.

 

But I would still suggest using a fan for longevity.

 

+1 I am using 4 ohms speakers for my living hall. Using 4400 with preout to Fronts do make a difference. :)

[rock123]

If Onkyo uses XT32, I will definitely keep it ;D

 

Nevertheless, you should listen to which brand will match nicely with your speakers and satisfy you ears.

Considering also the room correction.. if you know how to 'tune and tweak' so you should begin with your Onkyo first... REW it then gets the best result before you can compare with Denon.

You make a call bro...  ;)

 

 

 

A quick comparison between Denon XT32 vs my current Onkyo AccUQ

 

Denon On screen Menu with mulit parameters adjustment is so much better.

I am impressed by The Audyssey calibration too.

 

Onkyo AccUQ is nothing to shout about. Nothing much to tweak lol..

 

Purely listen @Vanilla and after @completed default room correction @both,

 

My ears and feel is towards Denon.

Details, presence and Bass is another level. :)

 

 

[desray]

A quick comparison between Denon XT32 vs my current Onkyo AccUQ

 

Denon On screen Menu with mulit parameters adjustment is so much better.

I am impressed by The Audyssey calibration too.

 

Onkyo AccUQ is nothing to shout about. Nothing much to tweak lol..

 

Purely listen @Vanilla and after @completed default room correction @both,

 

My ears and feel is towards Denon.

Details, presence and Bass is another level. :)

 

As sad as it may sound, Onkyo will never get back it’s glory days with their room EQ (AccuEQ) despite the fact they have great hardware. The last Onkyo AVR I owned was the TX-NR929 that comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT32. Onkyo AVR has been plagued by HDMI related issues for the longest time. Apart from that, it has plenty of power to drive any kind of speakers. Many HT enthusiast loved its meaty bass and impactful sound. But more importantly, Onkyo represents the best value for money with the bells and whistles compared to its competitors in the likes of Denon and Marantz back then. Now I never even consider Onkyo as a viable choice when I want to upgrade.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rock123]

 

One thing I notice the Denon AVR top & side casing is v hot  :-* after usage of movie @day 1 and day 2.

Will arrange the AC infinity Fan placement.